Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:14 AM - Re: Two LiFePO4 batteries in parallel (Jeff Parker)
2. 08:47 AM - Fw: MR16 halogen lamp LED replacement: sanity check (Charlie England)
3. 10:04 AM - Re: Fw: MR16 halogen lamp LED replacement: sanity check (user9253)
4. 11:10 AM - Re: Two LiFePO4 batteries in parallel (Rob Turk)
5. 11:12 AM - Re: Re: Fw: MR16 halogen lamp LED replacement: sanity check (Charlie England)
6. 11:17 AM - Re: Fw: MR16 halogen lamp LED replacement: sanity check (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 11:27 AM - Re: Re: Fw: MR16 halogen lamp LED replacement: sanity check (Christopher Cee Stone)
8. 11:47 AM - Re: Re: Fw: MR16 halogen lamp LED replacement: sanity check (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 11:59 AM - Re: Two LiFePO4 batteries in parallel (C&K)
10. 01:46 PM - Some interesting observations (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 03:13 PM - Re: Re: Fw: MR16 halogen lamp LED replacement: sanity check (Charlie England)
12. 03:35 PM - Re: Re: Fw: MR16 halogen lamp LED replacement: sanity check (Christopher Cee Stone)
13. 03:50 PM - Re: Two LiFePO4 batteries in parallel (Charlie England)
14. 05:40 PM - Re: Re: Fw: MR16 halogen lamp LED replacement: sanity check (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
15. 11:09 PM - The best place for players to add POE Currency (CSCCA)
16. 11:11 PM - Very cheap MUT 21 Coins are on sale (CSCCA)
17. 11:11 PM - Here is the most core competitive POE Currency (CSCCA)
18. 11:12 PM - Come get the cheapest and safest NBA 2K21 MT (CSCCA)
19. 11:27 PM - Re: Two LiFePO4 batteries in parallel (Rob Turk)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Two LiFePO4 batteries in parallel |
I went through this thought process when designing my electrical system. In t
he end I decided two alternators and one battery (EXT-680) was the best cour
se of action. I have an electronically dependent engine that I will be flyin
g IFR. I used Z-13 with some modifications (it=99s posted on the list s
omeplace) because I wanted simple over complex.
I can load shed as necessary down to just the engine bus and both PFDs. If I
lose my primary (60a) or alternate (30a) alternator while IFR then I consid
er this an emergency and need to land ASAP or get to VFR condition. A failur
e VFR isn=99t as critical to me.
I=99d only have two batteries (that I could isolate from each other) i
f I was planning to fly my little plane to Europe and back. Otherwise Keep I
t Simple.
Jeff Parker
Sent from my iPad
> On Aug 23, 2020, at 21:28, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelect
ric.com> wrote:
>
> =EF=BB At 02:32 PM 8/23/2020, you wrote:
>>
>> The AEC has a great section on dual battery use. One revelation to me is t
hat it's OK to run two batteries in parallel, and I have a question about th
is.
>>
>> A buddy of mine is building a plane with an engine that depends on electr
ic energy both for ignition and fuel injection. The fuel pumps, ECU, dual ig
nition and injectors use about 13A under normal load. In case of alternator f
ailure this can be reduced to 10A by running on one set of coils.
>
> What are your battery-only endurance goals?
>
>> We are discussing failure modes and endurance. The plane is very light. A
regular 20-30Ah battery would be too heavy, so we're looking at LiFePO4 opt
ions.
>
> 2+ hours?
>
>> For cranking, a 300CCA starter battery would be plenty, weighing just 1.5
kg. But it is rated for 8Ah, so after accounting for aging and adding other e
ssentials I expect no more than 30 minutes of flight after the alternator fa
ils.
>
> What brand and model of battery is this?
>
>> The second option is a 20Ah LiFePO4 battery. About the same weight, but n
ot suitable for starting. This should give about an hour, and considering th
e area and types of flight that should be enough to find a safe place to lan
d.
>
> Again. . . what brand/model battery?
>
>> Both batteries have their own internal BMS circuitry, both are advertized
as drop-in replacements for gel batteries. No need to change charging syste
ms. Or so it says. Together they weight 3kg, which is still considerably les
s than a regular battery.
>
> Why not a single ETX680 at 1.86KG and 12.4AH (supports 10A
> at 80% capacity)?
>
>> The question is, what risks are there in using these two dis-similar batt
eries in parallel?
>
> Not enough data . . .it might work. Virtually
> ALL fat LiFePO4 batteries are ARRAYS of cells
> in series/parallel configuration. The TrueBlue
> series of TSO batteries are multiple arrays EACH
> having it's own BMS.
>
> So what you're suggesting may well be practical
> from a electrical performance perspective. But
> then you have TWO batteries to monitor. If one
> services-out before the other, will you replace
> BOTH or just one . . . and worry more about the
> older battery.
>
> Methinks it FAR better to install ONE battery
> capable of doing the task.
>
> Bob . . .
>
> Bob . . .
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| Subject: | Fwd: MR16 halogen lamp LED replacement: sanity check |
While looking for a 'drop in' LED replacement for some 75W MR16 (2" dia)
landing light lamps, I've found 'more of the same' in actual LED lumens
ratings vs the lumens ratings for the incandescent or halogen bulbs they
are replacing. 75W halogens are typically around 2500 total candela (sp?)
and 1400 lumens, while the claimed replacements are closer to 500-600
lumens. When I asked one of the common vendors about that, well, see the
answer below.
It seems it's time to question someone's sanity. Who's?
Charlie
---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: RV7 Builder <mcsophie@gmail.com>
Subject: Fwd: MR16 halogen lamp LED replacement
---------- Forwarded message ---------
From:
Subject: RE: MR16 halogen lamp LED replacement
Hello,
Thank you for contacting 1000Bulbs.com. Based on your emails below, it
looks like you are actually referencing two different companies website.
One is ours; 1000Bulbs.com. The other is a competitor of Bulbs.com. We
are two completely separate entities, and I am only the sales contact on
our website of 1000Bulbs.com.
When converting to an LED option, it is not uncommon for the lumens to be
lower than the original bulb it is replacing. As LED options are naturally
a brighter option, the lumen count will typically be less.
Thank you,
*Beth Garcia*
*Customer Care Advocate Manager *
1000Bulbs.com
2140 Merritt Dr. | Garland, TX 75041
972-535-0922 Fax
972-288-2277
[image: Description: Description: new_logo] <https://www.1000bulbs.com/>[image:
Description: Description: TWITTER_color_32px] <http://twitter.com/1000bulbs>
[image: Description: Description: PINTEREST_color_32px]
<https://www.pinterest.com/1000bulbs/> [image: Description: Description:
FACEBOOK_color_32px] <http://facebook.com/1000bulbs> [image: Description:
Description: YOUTUBE_color_32px] <http://youtube.com/user/1000bulbs>
*From:* RV7 Builder <mcsophie@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Sunday, August 23, 2020 11:29 AM
*To:* Beth Garcia <bgarcia@1000bulbs.com>
*Subject:* Fwd: MR16 halogen lamp LED replacement
Greetings,
What an amazing coincidence that a Beth Garcia is the sales specialist at
two different companies. Could it possibly be, that the two companies, and
the two Beths, are the same?
Here's the '75W equivalent' from the 1000bulbs site:
https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/led-mr16-75w-equal/
Obviously, none of these offerings come even close to replacing an original
75W halogen (or, I suspect, even a 50W halogen).
Wouldn't it be better to be honest with your listings, and avoid angry
customers?
Charlie
---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: *RV7 Builder* <mcsophie@gmail.com>
Subject: MR16 halogen lamp LED replacement
Greetings,
I'm looking for an LED replacement for a 12V, 75W MR16 halogen. The
original bas is GU5.3, but is non-critical; I can change the mating
connector. I can also accept (actually, prefer) a spot pattern to improve
lumens (and throw).
I note that the original Philips 75W lamp is rated at 2500 CP and (for a
flood style beam) 1410 lumens. All the LED 'replacements' you list are
roughly 1/2 the lumens of the original halogen lamp. Reference:
https://www.bulbs.com/product/75MR16-FL36-EYC-12V-4000-HRS
and
https://www.bulbs.com/Light_Bulbs/10V_--_19V/LED-Bulb_Technology/Reflector-BF_Category/MR/61W_--_75W/results.aspx?Ns=P_Wattage+Sort%7C0
Is there no LED direct replacement for the original light output from the
halogen?
Thank you,
Charlie
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Fwd: MR16 halogen lamp LED replacement: sanity |
check
One statement caught my attention:
" As LED options are naturally a brighter option, the lumen count will typically
be less."
That does not make sense. Isn't a lumen a unit of brightness?
This website will help to convert from halogen to LED:
https://www.rapidtables.com/calc/light/how-lumen-to-watt.html
I agree Charlie, it will take 2 or 3 of those LEDs to replace 1 halogen.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497945#497945
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| Subject: | Re: Two LiFePO4 batteries in parallel |
Hello Bob and all others who replied, thanks for your thoughts
> What are your battery-only endurance goals? 1 hour minimum @ 12A essential load.
> What brand and model of battery is this? Starter: Landport LFP30:
https://www.landportbv.com/nl/producten/accu-lfp30/ Endurance: Landport
LFP12-20: https://www.landportbv.com/nl/producten/accu-lfp-v12-020-t3/
Additional reason for this brand: Access to at-cost product as side
order from other project > Why not a single ETX680 at 1.86KG and 12.4AH
(supports 10A at 80% capacity)? The ETX680 would probably be close
enough, if it were available in Europe. Unfortunately shipping
Lithium-based batteries from USA is not an option. We need to work with
local resources. Thanks, Rob On 8/24/2020 1:54 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls,
III wrote:
<matronics@rtist.nl> >> >> The AEC has a great section on dual battery
use. One revelation to >> me is that it's OK to run two batteries in
parallel, and I have a >> question about this. >> >> A buddy of mine is
building a plane with an engine that depends on >> electric energy both
for ignition and fuel injection. The fuel >> pumps, ECU, dual ignition
and injectors use about 13A under normal >> load. In case of alternator
failure this can be reduced to 10A by >> running on one set of coils. >
> What are your battery-only endurance goals? > >> We are discussing
failure modes and endurance. The plane is very >> light. A regular
20-30Ah battery would be too heavy, so we're >> looking at LiFePO4
options. > > 2+ hours? > >> For cranking, a 300CCA starter battery would
be plenty, weighing >> just 1.5kg. But it is rated for 8Ah, so after
accounting for aging >> and adding other essentials I expect no more
than 30 minutes of >> flight after the alternator fails. > > What brand
and model of battery is this? > >> The second option is a 20Ah LiFePO4
battery. About the same weight, >> but not suitable for starting. This
should give about an hour, and >> considering the area and types of
flight that should be enough to >> find a safe place to land. > > Again.
. . what brand/model battery? > >> Both batteries have their own
internal BMS circuitry, both are >> advertized as drop-in replacements
for gel batteries. No need to >> change charging systems. Or so it says.
Together they weight 3kg, >> which is still considerably less than a
regular battery. > > Why not a single ETX680 at 1.86KG and 12.4AH
(supports 10A at 80% > capacity)? > >> The question is, what risks are
there in using these two >> dis-similar batteries in parallel? > > Not
enough data . . .it might work. Virtually ALL fat LiFePO4 > batteries
are ARRAYS of cells in series/parallel configuration. The > TrueBlue
series of TSO batteries are multiple arrays EACH having it's > own BMS.
> > So what you're suggesting may well be practical from a electrical >
performance perspective. But then you have TWO batteries to monitor. >
If one services-out before the other, will you replace BOTH or just >
one . . . and worry more about the older battery. > > Methinks it FAR
better to install ONE battery capable of doing the > task. > > Bob . . .
> > Bob . . . >
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Fwd: MR16 halogen lamp LED replacement: sanity |
check
On 8/24/2020 11:59 AM, user9253 wrote:
>
> One statement caught my attention:
> " As LED options are naturally a brighter option, the lumen count will typically
be less."
> That does not make sense. Isn't a lumen a unit of brightness?
> This website will help to convert from halogen to LED:
> https://www.rapidtables.com/calc/light/how-lumen-to-watt.html
> I agree Charlie, it will take 2 or 3 of those LEDs to replace 1 halogen.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
Yeah; that was what prompted my 'somebody's crazy' comment. Her
statement was the 1st time I've ever heard that LEDs can be brighter and
have lower lumens at the same time. :-)
Charlie
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Fwd: MR16 halogen lamp LED replacement: sanity |
check
At 10:38 AM 8/24/2020, you wrote:
>While looking for a 'drop in' LED replacement
>for some 75W MR16 (2" dia) landing light lamps,
>I've found 'more of the same' in actual LED
>lumens ratings vs the lumens ratings for the
>incandescent=C2 or halogen bulbs they are
>replacing. 75W halogens are typically around
>2500 total candela (sp?) and 1400 lumens, while
>the claimed replacements are closer to 500-600
>lumens. When I asked one of the common vendors
>about that, well, see the answer below.=C2
>
>It seems it's time to question someone's sanity. Who's?
>
>Charlie
Illumination for night landings is
a topic that will get you a constellation
of opinions . . . but not much in the
way of practical experience combined
with good physical definitions.
Those Lumens numbers are pretty much
meaningless without knowing exactly how
they e distributed. Lenses and
reflectors have an understandably profound
effect on where the light goes. There are
hand held flashlights with 2W leds that
produce a 6000 Lumen BEAM . . . the
multi-led headlight arrays on my truck's
headlights consume about 30 watts but
wont have anywhere near that kind of
output center-beam . . . but probably
something on that order of light output
SPREAD OUT over a large area of illumination.
I recall reading the FAA requirements for
landing and taxi light functionality
while working at GatesLJ on the GP180
project.
It called for verifying, by measurement,
incident illumination over the illuminated
surfaces with defined H, V, and D values.
NOT something we wanted to do in house . . .
we bought Grimes fixtures already qualified
to those requirements.
Needless to say, those were flame-throwing
fixtures!
On the other side of the coin, I recall
a 'demonstration' I used to conduct at
my seminars. I'd light up a 6 volt sports
lantern and shine it around my audience
with pretty much everyone ducking for
cover.
Question: "Could you land an airplane at
night by simply holding this light out the
window?" 6 volts at 0.75A = 4.5 watt
bulb. Obviously intense beam power but a
good deal of peripheral emission as well.
The answer was: "You betcha . . . no sweat."
When considering a shift of technology in
your lighting selections, the BEST thing
to do is go fly it yourself. I can tell
you from personal experience that ANY
light thrown out the front when on short
final to a black hole is of HUGE benefit.
The human eye is a logarithmic sensor. A
2x increase in illumination will be noticed
but not perceived as a 'big' change. A
10:1 reduction in illumination will be
startling . . . but will probably not
make your task of greasing the landing
more difficult.
I made an interesting discovery during
night ops instruction at KICT. The
instructor directed me to the much wider
runways to figure out how to land with
NO lights. The 4x wider runway really
changed your perception of height looking out
the windshield!
After the first few clumsy arrivals with
the concrete, I discovered that the strobe
flashes illuminated the surface under the
wing tips. I noticed that the first flash I
could perceive texture in the peripheral
view of the pavement, I was but a couple
feet off the ground.
The point is that you don't really need
to see possums creeping across the runway
2000' ahead. Getting a good situational
awareness of immediate environs will get
you on the ground quite comfortably . . .
and it doesn't take much light to do that.
But everyone's goals, skill-sets and
perceptions are different. When in doubt,
go fly it. Last time I looked, we're still
allowed to do that.
I'd bet that your proposed substitution
for a lamp will be perceived as 'different'.
Question: "Is it adequate?"
Bob . . .
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Fwd: MR16 halogen lamp LED replacement: sanity |
check
Light ratings need explicit definition as they involve a number of
variables as white light is defined in five dimensions. The old watts
rating along with is it a "bare bulb", a "flood" or a "spot" used to be
good enough as these are all white black body radiators.
The link you provided has a conversion of radiant flux to luminous flux.
The wattage on filament bulb ratings is the input power, no direct relation
to radiant flux.
Lumens describe luminous flux, Simply how bright the source appears to the
human eye.
Lux is unit of how much of that brightness will appear on a surface at a
defined distance. One lux = 1 lumen per square meter at one meter distan
t
from the source. 1 footcandle = one lumen per square foot at one foot
distant from the source.
1 candela = one lumen per steradian. (see below)
[image: image.png][image: image.png]
White LEDs are typically rated in CD (candela) or Lm (lumens) for
radiant output.. They are also specified by CCT, (correlated color
temperature). Roughly 5000=C2=B0K = daylight, 2500=C2=B0K= candle lig
ht
(yellow/orange). As CCT is a one dimensional characteristic which works
well for a filament source it can produce very different results for an LED
which is a cold light source. The applicable color characteristic for LEDs
is "chromaticity".
If all this is confusing it is because light is electromagnetic radiation
and as such is multidimensional.
If anyone is interested I will provide my slide deck to my course "Intro to
Illumination" course. Contact me at chris dot stone@a-dec dot com.
(replace the "dot" with a .) to elude spammers.
.chris stone
On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 10:16 AM user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> One statement caught my attention:
> " As LED options are naturally a brighter option, the lumen count will
> typically be less."
> That does not make sense. Isn't a lumen a unit of brightness?
> This website will help to convert from halogen to LED:
> https://www.rapidtables.com/calc/light/how-lumen-to-watt.html
> I agree Charlie, it will take 2 or 3 of those LEDs to replace 1 halogen.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497945#497945
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Fwd: MR16 halogen lamp LED replacement: |
sanity check
>If anyone is interested I will provide my slide
>deck to my course "Intro to Illumination"
>course.=C2 Contact me at chris dot stone@a-dec
>dot com.=C2 (replace the "dot" with a .) to elude spammers.
>
>.chris stone
Are you interested/willing to have this document
added to the technical library on aeroelectric.com?
If so, I'd be pleased to receive a copy. Thanks
for sharing!
Bob . . .
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Two LiFePO4 batteries in parallel |
While not as easy as mounting another battery I've never regretted
fitting a little Permanent Magnet alternator as a second electron
source. Gives me much more confidence than a second battery for keeping
the engine running. Others have suggested similar but definitely worth
considering. Total maintenance in 16 years and 900 hrs. has been
replacing a $5. bearing once when it was off the engine anyway for
another reason. OK I did splurge for a new $10. v-belt for it at the
same time.
Ken
On 24/08/2020 2:03 PM, Rob Turk wrote:
> Hello Bob and all others who replied, thanks for your thoughts
>
> > What are your battery-only endurance goals? 1 hour minimum @ 12A essential
load.
> > What brand and model of battery is this? Starter: Landport LFP30:
> https://www.landportbv.com/nl/producten/accu-lfp30/ Endurance:
> Landport LFP12-20:
> https://www.landportbv.com/nl/producten/accu-lfp-v12-020-t3/
> Additional reason for this brand: Access to at-cost product as side
> order from other project > Why not a single ETX680 at 1.86KG and
> 12.4AH (supports 10A at 80% capacity)? The ETX680 would probably be
> close enough, if it were available in Europe. Unfortunately shipping
> Lithium-based batteries from USA is not an option. We need to work
> with local resources. Thanks, Rob On 8/24/2020 1:54 AM, Robert L.
> Nuckolls, III wrote:
> <matronics@rtist.nl> >> >> The AEC has a great section on dual battery
> use. One revelation to >> me is that it's OK to run two batteries in
> parallel, and I have a >> question about this. >> >> A buddy of mine
> is building a plane with an engine that depends on >> electric energy
> both for ignition and fuel injection. The fuel >> pumps, ECU, dual
> ignition and injectors use about 13A under normal >> load. In case of
> alternator failure this can be reduced to 10A by >> running on one set
> of coils. > > What are your battery-only endurance goals? > >> We are
> discussing failure modes and endurance. The plane is very >> light. A
> regular 20-30Ah battery would be too heavy, so we're >> looking at
> LiFePO4 options. > > 2+ hours? > >> For cranking, a 300CCA starter
> battery would be plenty, weighing >> just 1.5kg. But it is rated for
> 8Ah, so after accounting for aging >> and adding other essentials I
> expect no more than 30 minutes of >> flight after the alternator
> fails. > > What brand and model of battery is this? > >> The second
> option is a 20Ah LiFePO4 battery. About the same weight, >> but not
> suitable for starting. This should give about an hour, and >>
> considering the area and types of flight that should be enough to >>
> find a safe place to land. > > Again. . . what brand/model battery? >
> >> Both batteries have their own internal BMS circuitry, both are >>
> advertized as drop-in replacements for gel batteries. No need to >>
> change charging systems. Or so it says. Together they weight 3kg, >>
> which is still considerably less than a regular battery. > > Why not a
> single ETX680 at 1.86KG and 12.4AH (supports 10A at 80% > capacity)? >
> >> The question is, what risks are there in using these two >>
> dis-similar batteries in parallel? > > Not enough data . . .it might
> work. Virtually ALL fat LiFePO4 > batteries are ARRAYS of cells in
> series/parallel configuration. The > TrueBlue series of TSO batteries
> are multiple arrays EACH having it's > own BMS. > > So what you're
> suggesting may well be practical from a electrical > performance
> perspective. But then you have TWO batteries to monitor. > If one
> services-out before the other, will you replace BOTH or just > one . .
> . and worry more about the older battery. > > Methinks it FAR better
> to install ONE battery capable of doing the > task. > > Bob . . . > >
> Bob . . . >
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Some interesting observations |
I've been gathering test data on some lithium products
in anticipation of doing an article on the quest for
an elegant integration of lithium cells into OBAM
light aircraft.
The two attached plots are interesting. The test article
is an EarthX ETX26D graciously donated to our 'cause' about
6 years ago. The plots illustrate battery behavior when
subjected to an array of charge/discharge profiles.
In the charge plots we see the battery response to
being charged in 0.5 volt steps over the range of 13.0
to 15.0 volts.
The 15.0 and 14.5 volt curves show a marked inflection
of charge current approx 2 hours after starting the
test. As the charge voltage is lowered, the inflections
(achievement of full charge) move outward in time and
are less pronounced. The interesting plot is at 13.0
volts . . no inflection . . . i.e. the battery doesn't
take on any charge.
The discharge plots are equally interesting. Note that
13.0v charge pumped no appreciable energy into the
battery chemistry. However, charging at 13.5 to 15.0
volts fully charges the battery. i.e. the battery
performance (except perhaps for charging time)
is unaffected by bus voltage. Note: the red plot
is what the battery delivered 'off the shelf' after
having been used/stored/maintained at intervals
over the past 5 or so years.
I not that the battery's demonstrated capacity is
on the order of 10.3 AH . . . down slightly from
demonstrated 11.6 AH when received as new.
These data are consistent with an article I
found on powerstream.com
https://tinyurl.com/yakthgt6
Where the author demonstrates the profound difference
in performance between Lithium Iron versus the
Lithium Polymer products. The article shows how the popular
and quite common Lithium Polymer cells fully charge at
4.2 volts with stored energy profoundly affected by
the top-off voltage. Same goes for Lithium Ion cells
widely offered as rechargeable power for a constellation
of consumer products.
Touchstone of note: No matter what claims are made
for the capacity of these cells, the real capability
of an 18650 Li-Ion cell is on the order of 2800 mAH. This
is easily confirmed by studies of published engineering data
sheets for name brand cells like Panasonic, A123,
Sanyo, etc.
https://tinyurl.com/y32rh8ym
Those ads on eBay touting 4000-10,000 mAH are blowing
smoke up your pant leg. Now, I not implying that
these cells are not serviceable products . . . price/
performance can be quite good but unless verified
by published performance data sheets, be skeptical
of stellar capacity claims.
That leaves us with the lowly Lithium Iron Phosphate
cell. It has the poorest capacity for unit volume of
all the popular products . . . but they are relatively
immune to catastrophic failure. Hence, the chemistry
of choice for the 'big guys' in TSO batteries for
CT aircraft. Typical energy ratings for the 18650
LiFePO4 are on the order of 1000-1500 mAH.
A noteworthy fallout of my studies suggests there
is no value in running the bus at any higher
than 14.0 volts for the LiFePO4 products.
Just thought I'd share some of the the bucket
of data point's I've gathered so far . . .
I'm still pondering the burned alternator
coils on the Revmaster engine . . . got some
ideas I want to massage on the test bench . . .
Bob . . .
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Fwd: MR16 halogen lamp LED replacement: sanity |
check
Hi Chris,
As testament to my weak grasp of lighting specs, I have to 're-learn'
about them every time I deal with lighting issues.
However, that salesperson's contention that LEDs are brighter, and
therefor have lower lumen ratings for the same light level, makes no
sense whatsoever to me. According to the interwebs, the definition of
'lumen' is:
the central cavity of a tubular or other hollow structure in an organism
or cell.
"the stomach empties food into the lumen of the small intestine"
No, wait...Let's try this one:
the SI unit of luminous flux, equal to the amount of light emitted per
second in a unit solid angle of one steradian from a uniform source of
one candela.
So when is a lumen not a lumen? Unless that company is selling small
intestines, they are feeding us the output of small intestines.
*That* was the reason for my post. They are certainly not alone in
misleading claims; early on it was very rare to find a home LED bulb
that truly had light output equal to its 'equivalent' incandescent or
halogen version. Things are a bit better now, but too often, still not
truly equivalent.
I obviously want to use LEDs; I just want honesty in their ratings just
like I want honesty in ratings for any other product.
I'd love to have your presentation on lighting; it would be nice to have
a reference document when I need to 're-learn' lighting from time to
time. If you're going to send it to Bob, I can download it from the AEC
site, so you won't have to send to multiple destinations.
Thanks!
Charlie
On 8/24/2020 1:22 PM, Christopher Cee Stone wrote:
> Light ratings need explicit definitionas theyinvolve a number of
> variables as white light is defined in five dimensions. The old watts
> rating along with is it a "bare bulb", a "flood" or a "spot" used to
> be good enough as these are all white black body radiators.
> The link you provided has a conversion of radiantflux to luminous
> flux. The wattage on filamentbulb ratings is the input power, no
> direct relation to radiantflux.
>
> Lumensdescribe luminous flux, Simply how bright the source
> appearsto the human eye.
> Lux is unit of how much of that brightness will appear on a surface at
> a defined distance. One lux = 1 lumen per square meter at one meter
> distant from the source. 1 footcandle = one lumen per squarefoot at
> one foot distant from the source.
> 1 candela = one lumen per steradian. (see below)
> image.pngimage.png
> White LEDs are typically rated in CD (candela) or Lm (lumens) for
> radiantoutput.. They are also specified by CCT, (correlatedcolor
> temperature). Roughly5000K = daylight, 2500K= candle light
> (yellow/orange). As CCT is a one dimensional characteristic which
> works well for a filament source it can produce very different results
> for an LED which is a cold light source. The applicable color
> characteristic for LEDs is "chromaticity".
>
> If all this is confusing it is because light is
> electromagneticradiation and as such is multidimensional.
>
> If anyone is interested I will provide my slide deck to my course
> "Intro to Illumination" course. Contact me at chris dot stone@a-dec
> dot com. (replace the "dot" with a .) to elude spammers.
>
> .chris stone
>
> On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 10:16 AM user9253 <fransew@gmail.com
> <mailto:fransew@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> <fransew@gmail.com <mailto:fransew@gmail.com>>
>
> One statement caught my attention:
> " As LED options are naturally a brighter option, the lumen count
> will typically be less."
> That does not make sense. Isn't a lumen a unit of brightness?
> This website will help to convert from halogen to LED:
> https://www.rapidtables.com/calc/light/how-lumen-to-watt.html
> I agree Charlie, it will take 2 or 3 of those LEDs to replace 1
> halogen.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497945#497945
>
>
> ==========
> -
> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> ==========
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> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
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Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Fwd: MR16 halogen lamp LED replacement: sanity |
check
Charlie et al...
I did see the magical art of illumination put forth by the inhabitant of
1000bulbs.com, or was it bulbs.com. I have had similar discussions with
the sales associate at superbrightleds.com In fairness it's a subject that
is a bit more complex than meets the eye. (no pun intended)
.chris
On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 3:21 PM Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Hi Chris,
>
> As testament to my weak grasp of lighting specs, I have to 're-learn'
> about them every time I deal with lighting issues.
>
> However, that salesperson's contention that LEDs are brighter, and
> therefor have lower lumen ratings for the same light level, makes no sens
e
> whatsoever to me. According to the interwebs, the definition of 'lumen' i
s:
>
> the central cavity of a tubular or other hollow structure in an organism
> or cell.
> "the stomach empties food into the lumen of the small intestine"
>
> No, wait...Let's try this one:
>
> the SI unit of luminous flux, equal to the amount of light emitted per
> second in a unit solid angle of one steradian from a uniform source of on
e
> candela.
>
> So when is a lumen not a lumen? Unless that company is selling small
> intestines, they are feeding us the output of small intestines.
>
> *That* was the reason for my post. They are certainly not alone in
> misleading claims; early on it was very rare to find a home LED bulb that
> truly had light output equal to its 'equivalent' incandescent or halogen
> version. Things are a bit better now, but too often, still not truly
> equivalent.
>
> I obviously want to use LEDs; I just want honesty in their ratings just
> like I want honesty in ratings for any other product.
>
> I'd love to have your presentation on lighting; it would be nice to have
a
> reference document when I need to 're-learn' lighting from time to time.
If
> you're going to send it to Bob, I can download it from the AEC site, so y
ou
> won't have to send to multiple destinations.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Charlie
>
> On 8/24/2020 1:22 PM, Christopher Cee Stone wrote:
>
> Light ratings need explicit definition as they involve a number of
> variables as white light is defined in five dimensions. The old watts
> rating along with is it a "bare bulb", a "flood" or a "spot" used to be
> good enough as these are all white black body radiators.
> The link you provided has a conversion of radiant flux to luminous flux.
> The wattage on filament bulb ratings is the input power, no direct relati
on
> to radiant flux.
>
> Lumens describe luminous flux, Simply how bright the source appears to
> the human eye.
> Lux is unit of how much of that brightness will appear on a surface at a
> defined distance. One lux = 1 lumen per square meter at one meter dist
ant
> from the source. 1 footcandle = one lumen per square foot at one foot
> distant from the source.
> 1 candela = one lumen per steradian. (see below)
> [image: image.png][image: image.png]
> White LEDs are typically rated in CD (candela) or Lm (lumens) for
> radiant output.. They are also specified by CCT, (correlated color
> temperature). Roughly 5000=C2=B0K = daylight, 2500=C2=B0K= candle l
ight
> (yellow/orange). As CCT is a one dimensional characteristic which works
> well for a filament source it can produce very different results for an L
ED
> which is a cold light source. The applicable color characteristic for LE
Ds
> is "chromaticity".
>
> If all this is confusing it is because light is electromagnetic radiation
> and as such is multidimensional.
>
> If anyone is interested I will provide my slide deck to my course "Intro
> to Illumination" course. Contact me at chris dot stone@a-dec dot com.
> (replace the "dot" with a .) to elude spammers.
>
> .chris stone
>
> On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 10:16 AM user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> One statement caught my attention:
>> " As LED options are naturally a brighter option, the lumen count will
>> typically be less."
>> That does not make sense. Isn't a lumen a unit of brightness?
>> This website will help to convert from halogen to LED:
>> https://www.rapidtables.com/calc/light/how-lumen-to-watt.html
>> I agree Charlie, it will take 2 or 3 of those LEDs to replace 1 halogen
.
>>
>> --------
>> Joe Gores
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=497945#497945
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> -
>> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>> ==========
>> FORUMS -
>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> WIKI -
>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Two LiFePO4 batteries in parallel |
I took a quick look at the 20AH version, and noticed that its max rated
charge current is 20A.
Now, if it's never depleted in the a/c, that might be ok, but what if it
is? None of the applications listed on the data sheet are likely to have
a 60A-capable alternator pushing electrons. That begs the question: Is
it really suitable for a/c use?
That's one of my 'gripes' with the current (pardon the pun) crop of
lithium batteries. They talk a good game on battery management, but....
As others have pointed out, a 2nd alternator would probably weigh about
the same as the battery, and since you're talking lithium, cost might
even be less. Then you have electrons to the point of fuel exhaustion.
I'm not IFR rated, but I'm enough of a wimp that if the regs require 45
minutes of reserve fuel, I'd want at least an hour and a half, and I
wouldn't want to have to even think about anything else in the plane
being exhaustible. :-)
Charlie
On 8/24/2020 1:03 PM, Rob Turk wrote:
> Hello Bob and all others who replied, thanks for your thoughts
>
> > What are your battery-only endurance goals? 1 hour minimum @ 12A essential
load.
> > What brand and model of battery is this? Starter: Landport LFP30:
> https://www.landportbv.com/nl/producten/accu-lfp30/ Endurance:
> Landport LFP12-20:
> https://www.landportbv.com/nl/producten/accu-lfp-v12-020-t3/
> Additional reason for this brand: Access to at-cost product as side
> order from other project > Why not a single ETX680 at 1.86KG and
> 12.4AH (supports 10A at 80% capacity)? The ETX680 would probably be
> close enough, if it were available in Europe. Unfortunately shipping
> Lithium-based batteries from USA is not an option. We need to work
> with local resources. Thanks, Rob On 8/24/2020 1:54 AM, Robert L.
> Nuckolls, III wrote:
> <matronics@rtist.nl> >> >> The AEC has a great section on dual battery
> use. One revelation to >> me is that it's OK to run two batteries in
> parallel, and I have a >> question about this. >> >> A buddy of mine
> is building a plane with an engine that depends on >> electric energy
> both for ignition and fuel injection. The fuel >> pumps, ECU, dual
> ignition and injectors use about 13A under normal >> load. In case of
> alternator failure this can be reduced to 10A by >> running on one set
> of coils. > > What are your battery-only endurance goals? > >> We are
> discussing failure modes and endurance. The plane is very >> light. A
> regular 20-30Ah battery would be too heavy, so we're >> looking at
> LiFePO4 options. > > 2+ hours? > >> For cranking, a 300CCA starter
> battery would be plenty, weighing >> just 1.5kg. But it is rated for
> 8Ah, so after accounting for aging >> and adding other essentials I
> expect no more than 30 minutes of >> flight after the alternator
> fails. > > What brand and model of battery is this? > >> The second
> option is a 20Ah LiFePO4 battery. About the same weight, >> but not
> suitable for starting. This should give about an hour, and >>
> considering the area and types of flight that should be enough to >>
> find a safe place to land. > > Again. . . what brand/model battery? >
> >> Both batteries have their own internal BMS circuitry, both are >>
> advertized as drop-in replacements for gel batteries. No need to >>
> change charging systems. Or so it says. Together they weight 3kg, >>
> which is still considerably less than a regular battery. > > Why not a
> single ETX680 at 1.86KG and 12.4AH (supports 10A at 80% > capacity)? >
> >> The question is, what risks are there in using these two >>
> dis-similar batteries in parallel? > > Not enough data . . .it might
> work. Virtually ALL fat LiFePO4 > batteries are ARRAYS of cells in
> series/parallel configuration. The > TrueBlue series of TSO batteries
> are multiple arrays EACH having it's > own BMS. > > So what you're
> suggesting may well be practical from a electrical > performance
> perspective. But then you have TWO batteries to monitor. > If one
> services-out before the other, will you replace BOTH or just > one . .
> . and worry more about the older battery. > > Methinks it FAR better
> to install ONE battery capable of doing the > task. > > Bob . . . > >
> Bob . . . >
>
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| Subject: | Re: Fwd: MR16 halogen lamp LED replacement: |
sanity check
At 05:09 PM 8/24/2020, you wrote:
>Hi Chris,
>
> <snip?
>
>I'd love to have your presentation on lighting; it would be nice to
>have a reference document when I need to 're-learn' lighting from
>time to time. If you're going to send it to Bob, I can download it
>from the AEC site, so you won't have to send to multiple destinations.
Chris has graciously supplied these
PP files for addition to our technical
library.
https://tinyurl.com/yyar99qu
Thank you sir! I owe you a six-pack!
Bob . . .
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| Subject: | Re: Two LiFePO4 batteries in parallel |
Thanks Charlie,
In this case the 20A max charge is no problem. The standard alternator
on this engine (ULPower UL260) is rated at 30A max, and at least 10A of
those go to the engine when running single ignition.
https://ulpower.com/en/engines/ul260/ul260is
I'll discuss the second alternator option, that might be a better way to
go if there's some way to fit one.
Rob
On 8/25/2020 12:46 AM, Charlie England wrote:
> I took a quick look at the 20AH version, and noticed that its max
> rated charge current is 20A.
>
> Now, if it's never depleted in the a/c, that might be ok, but what if
> it is? None of the applications listed on the data sheet are likely to
> have a 60A-capable alternator pushing electrons. That begs the
> question: Is it really suitable for a/c use?
>
> That's one of my 'gripes' with the current (pardon the pun) crop of
> lithium batteries. They talk a good game on battery management, but....
>
> As others have pointed out, a 2nd alternator would probably weigh
> about the same as the battery, and since you're talking lithium, cost
> might even be less. Then you have electrons to the point of fuel
> exhaustion. I'm not IFR rated, but I'm enough of a wimp that if the
> regs require 45 minutes of reserve fuel, I'd want at least an hour and
> a half, and I wouldn't want to have to even think about anything else
> in the plane being exhaustible. :-)
>
> Charlie
>
> On 8/24/2020 1:03 PM, Rob Turk wrote:
>> Hello Bob and all others who replied, thanks for your thoughts
>>
>> > What are your battery-only endurance goals? 1 hour minimum @ 12A essential
load.
>> > What brand and model of battery is this? Starter: Landport LFP30:
>> https://www.landportbv.com/nl/producten/accu-lfp30/ Endurance:
>> Landport LFP12-20:
>> https://www.landportbv.com/nl/producten/accu-lfp-v12-020-t3/
>> Additional reason for this brand: Access to at-cost product as side
>> order from other project > Why not a single ETX680 at 1.86KG and
>> 12.4AH (supports 10A at 80% capacity)? The ETX680 would probably be
>> close enough, if it were available in Europe. Unfortunately shipping
>> Lithium-based batteries from USA is not an option. We need to work
>> with local resources. Thanks, Rob
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