Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:46 AM - Re: Sealed lead Acid battery (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 06:27 AM - Re: Regulator failure (user9253)
3. 07:12 AM - Re: Re: Brownout Step Up Converter (Charlie England)
4. 07:25 AM - Installed new battery, Bus voltage went up over 15volts (Bill Watson)
5. 07:53 AM - Re: Installed new battery, Bus voltage went up over 15volts (Charlie England)
6. 10:02 AM - Re: B&C SD-8 Alternator/Regulator (Charlie England)
7. 10:50 AM - Re: Installed new battery, Bus voltage went up over 15volts (Jeff Luckey)
8. 11:08 AM - Re: B&C SD-8 Alternator/Regulator (Ron Springer)
9. 11:42 AM - Re: Brownout Step Up Converter (user9253)
10. 11:59 AM - Re: Installed new battery, Bus voltage went up over 15volts (user9253)
11. 12:28 PM - Re: Re: Brownout Step Up Converter (Charlie England)
12. 04:58 PM - Re: Brownout Step Up Converter (user9253)
13. 05:23 PM - Re: Re: Brownout Step Up Converter (Charlie England)
14. 08:39 PM - Re: Sealed lead Acid battery (William Daniell)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Sealed lead Acid battery |
At 01:51 PM 9/14/2020, you wrote:
>Charlie thanks,
>I too have been using cheap chinese SLA
>batteries which is the only small ish battery I
>could obtain in Colombia.=C2 It is also the
>normally used rotax battery there except=C2 where
>the battery is in the engine compartment because
>the belief is that SLA dont handle heat
>well.=C2 =C2 Starts my 912 turbo fine.=C2 But the
>stupidest=C2 question is the one you don't
>ask.=C2 And since I'm now in the US I have a few more alternatives...
Rule #1, it's dumb to argue with success.
Rule #2, when initiating a new experiment, you
need data based on observation.
When selecting a battery for an electrically dependent
airplane, one needs a battery-only, endurance
goal. Then be ready/willing to test the battery
against that requirement. Swap it out for a new one when it
fails the endurance test even if it still starts the engine,
We've had many discussions here on the List over
the years about suitability to task for a host
of batteries. Some folks swear by the premium
name brands, others have cited years of satisfactory
service from generic products.
But WITHOUT NUMBERS demonstrating compliance with
numerically defined design goals, those
conversations were little more than musings
over beer and pretzels.
For the most part, any and all SVLA products
are fair game for use in your airplane. The
deciding factor is $ownership$. How much
$testing$ and $procurement$ expenses are
incurred to keep your design goals covered?
Years ago, some of my readers bought the cheapest,
18AH SLVA they could find (about $40 at the time) and
simply replaced it every year. If they flew 50
hours a year, then operating expense was under a
$1/hr and testing expense was zero.
A really expensive battery may prove to the
the lowest cost per flight hour when
demonstrated performance negates a lot of
maintenance testing.
If you have no battery-only endurance requirements,
then you can run any battery like they do in most
GA light aircraft . . . run 'em until they don't
crank the engine any more. But keep in mind that
most of those dark-n-stormy-night stories involving
soggy batteries were penned by pilots who didn't
recognize that they had battery-only endurance
goals until it was too late to do anything about it.
So, pick a battery. Set goals. Monitor performance
over time and after you've gone through two or
three batteries, you'll KNOW if it was a good
value. We'd all appreciate it if you would share
your discoveries here on the List.
Bob . . .
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Regulator failure |
How many wires are coming out of the generator, 2 or 3 or ?
Do you know if the output is AC or DC? If not, can you measure it?
I suggest that the generator be disconnected from the aircraft electrical
system. Then connect the generator output to a high wattage load such
as an automotive headlight and go for a test flight. Measure the AC and
DC voltage and current through the load. If you suspect the unregulated
generator voltage and current might be too high for a single headlight,
connect two headlights in series.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498372#498372
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| Subject: | Re: Brownout Step Up Converter |
Situation: I have only one device (EFIS) that's susceptible to brownout,
and don't need a relay for my endurance bus.
Is there any reason to *not* leave the brownout booster in the circuit
continuously?
Ex: boost/buck inverter between main bus & EFIS input.
In case of inverter death, either a diode (simpler), or a simple switch,
wired 'around' the inverter. Only unprotected failure mode I can see is the
inverter going overvoltage; that could be handled with an OV module if the
risk is high enough.
Thoughts?
Thanks,
Charlie
>
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| Subject: | Installed new battery, Bus voltage went up over 15volts |
I am running a Z-14 electrical system with dual batts/alts/buses. I
recently changed out an old Odyssey 680 for a new one after 4+ years of
service because it's fully charged, no load voltage fell to 12.5
volts. I swapped the battery positions as I put in the new one per my
normal procedure.
On the 2nd leg of the first flight after the swap I noticed that the bus
with the new battery was running slightly over 15 volts. Normally it
runs between 14.5 and 14.7. After some switching of avionics and other
components, I took it off line.
Is there any obvious reason a new battery would cause a bus to suddenly
run at a higher voltage when at cruise and presumably the power is being
supplied by an alternator and the voltage controlled by an B&C
regulator? 15 volts is too high a charging voltage for an Odyssey per
their user doc.
My inclination is to adjust the regulator but I don't recall having to
do this with past battery changes or swaps (the regulator is really hard
to access so there's that too).
Thoughts and opinions welcome.
Bill "everytime I get comfortable with a system something new pops up"
Watson
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| Subject: | Re: Installed new battery, Bus voltage went up over |
15volts
On 9/15/2020 9:22 AM, Bill Watson wrote:
> <Mauledriver@nc.rr.com>
>
> I am running a Z-14 electrical system with dual batts/alts/buses. I
> recently changed out an old Odyssey 680 for a new one after 4+ years
> of service because it's fully charged, no load voltage fell to 12.5
> volts. I swapped the battery positions as I put in the new one per my
> normal procedure.
>
> On the 2nd leg of the first flight after the swap I noticed that the
> bus with the new battery was running slightly over 15 volts. Normally
> it runs between 14.5 and 14.7. After some switching of avionics and
> other components, I took it off line.
>
> Is there any obvious reason a new battery would cause a bus to
> suddenly run at a higher voltage when at cruise and presumably the
> power is being supplied by an alternator and the voltage controlled by
> an B&C regulator? 15 volts is too high a charging voltage for an
> Odyssey per their user doc.
>
> My inclination is to adjust the regulator but I don't recall having to
> do this with past battery changes or swaps (the regulator is really
> hard to access so there's that too).
>
> Thoughts and opinions welcome.
>
> Bill "everytime I get comfortable with a system something new pops up"
> Watson
>
>
Seems unlikely that the battery change would cause it, but easy enough
to verify, if you still have the old battery. Just return everything to
pre-replacement configuration & re-check.
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Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: B&C SD-8 Alternator/Regulator |
Understand. Apologies if that was offensive; it was intended to be light
hearted. I would have bet that it didn't show up at low throttle because
the ignition isn't working hard until MAP goes up at higher power settings,
but that doesn't square with your symptoms.
One thing that plug wire mfgers say in their docs is that it's important to
use compatible wire & plugs. IIRC, solid conductors with resistor plugs or
resistor wire with non-resistor plugs. That site I linked will probably
tell you which plugs to use when you pay them their $30. :-)
Just out of curiosity, did you try a new set of 386s? Any chance the
original setup had a different plug; perhaps a 14mm plug with thread
adapter? My plane had 14mm plugs on the Lightspeed ignition when I bought
it, but I changed to 386s out of paranoia when I found one of the adapters
backed out about half way about a month after purchasing the plane.
Charlie
On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 11:06 PM Ron Springer <ron228rj@gmail.com> wrote:
> Remember, I only discovered that this had something to do with the
> ignition system in the very last post. This whole thread has been focused
> on the electrical system, not the ignition, because the problem could onl
y
> be produced in flight shortly after the charging system kicked in at
> takeoff. It did not occur on the ground at any power setting from idle to
> full throttle.
>
> I didn=99t omit any information about the spark plugs because we ha
ven=99t
> been talking about the ignition system in this thread. I dealt with that
on
> my own.
>
> Ignition noise is usually suppressed by adding resistance to the plug,
> wires, or both to reduce current at the expense of performance. In this
> case, it appears that there may be too much resistance causing the mag to
> behave badly. The Autolite plugs on my electronic ignition work just fine
.
> It was just a problem with the mag.
>
> I had two sets of auto harnesses to choose from. One was a modified
> aircraft harness with auto plug terminals. That is low resistance wire wi
th
> a metal shield. I also had a harness utilizing 8.8 mm Accel wires with a
> resistance of about 700 ohms, advertised to be RFI suppression wires.
> Neither set of wires made a difference. It was all due to the plugs. That
> website you mentioned advertises low resistance MSD wires on their auto
> plug harness but they don=99t mention the plugs that they recommend
for a
> magneto.
>
> Ron
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 14, 2020, at 9:58 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com> wrote
:
>
> =EF=BB
> Yeah...That would have been a useful data point to supply for
> troubleshooting. ;-)
>
> Some have gotten away with using specific plug wires & automotive plugs
> with mags, but the whole reason mags have shielded wire and shielded plug
s
> is to suppress the intense RF ignition noise from the mag.
>
> Here's one way to do it successfully:
> http://www.g3ignition.com/magmod.html
> Note that the 386s are being used by some of us with electronic ignition,
> but internet lore says they have a higher heat range than typical a/c
> plugs, or the metric plugs that require an adapter.
>
> Charlie
>
> On 9/14/2020 6:54 PM, Ron Springer wrote:
>
> To close this one out ...
>
> The source of the noise was the magneto itself. Disconnect the p-lead to
> the engine monitor, and all of the data was stable. However, the magneto
> was still radiating RF that was causing other problems. It would stop dat
a
> recording to the USB stick on my EFIS. It created some radio noise. It
> possibly took my GPS antenna offline (or it might have just been the
> location, which I also changed).
>
> So, why was the brand new magneto creating noise ... because when I bough
t
> the plane it was set up to use auto spark plugs, specifically Autolite 38
6.
> Other than some radio noise, the previous owner didn't have any issues
> because he had few electronics in the plane, mostly steam gauges. My theo
ry
> is that the magneto reacts poorly to high resistance downstream of it. Yo
u
> are supposed to throw out an aircraft plug when it hits 5000 ohms, but mo
st
> Autolite 386 plugs are around 10000 ohms out of the box. The
> manufacturer provides a large range from 3k to 12k ohms. I tested six new
> ones and measured between 7k and 12k ohms. There is probably an auto plug
> solution that would work fine on my magento, but I am done experimenting
> for now. I flew with the aircraft plugs and it fixed all my problems at
> once.
>
> Ron
>
> On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 8:19 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
>> At 06:28 PM 8/26/2020, you wrote:
>>
>> Just did a test flight and shot some video of the EIS to compare to the
>> EFIS. I haven=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t even looked at it yet because I d
id something else for
>> the first time. I shut off the magneto and everything got perfectly quie
t
>> on the EFIS, along with the noise that seems to be getting louder in my
>> headset on each flight!
>>
>>
>>
>> Aha! One more flight test:
>>
>> Leave the mag wire totally unhooked at
>> the engine end. Of course this leaves
>> you an always-hot mag but the p-lead
>> effects are now out of the diagnostic
>> loop.
>>
>> If the effect goes away, you're looking
>> at p-lead; if it stays you're looking
>> at plug wires.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>
>
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Installed new battery, Bus voltage went up over |
15volts
Bill,
Thinking out loud here:
The only way to get voltage that high is from the alternator (kinda obvious
) and the thing that controls the alternator is the regulator (again, obvio
us) therefore we might concentrate on the regulator.=C2- (I know, brillia
nt deductive reasoning ;)
I'm not familiar with the B&C regulator but I think it has a voltage-sense
terminal.=C2- Any chance something weird happened with the sense lead?=C2
- If the regulator is not getting accurate voltage signal it might over-c
ontrol the field??
Anecdote:A few years ago a friend has a similar but not identical problem.
=C2- The master had been left on and drained the battery.=C2- The batte
ry was removed and charged for an hour or two outside the airplane.=C2- H
e re-installed the battery and flew the plane and the voltage went crazy an
d fried his avionics stack ($$ouch!$$).=C2- There was no over-voltage pro
tection module.
We have never come up with a scenario that explains the failure.=C2- (Thi
s is probably due to incomplete information regarding the details of the ev
ent.=C2- I don't have first-hand knowledge of the details, so when we dis
cuss it over beers, the details get a little "fuzzy".)
I'm interested in some/any hypothesis that might explain that behavior.=C2
- It might be relevant to the situation at hand.
-JL=C2-
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020, 07:35:13 AM PDT, Bill Watson <mauledriv
er@nc.rr.com> wrote:
m>
I am running a Z-14 electrical system with dual batts/alts/buses.=C2- I
recently changed out an old Odyssey 680 for a new one after 4+ years of
service because=C2- it's fully charged, no load voltage fell to 12.5
volts.=C2- I swapped the battery positions as I put in the new one per my
normal procedure.
On the 2nd leg of the first flight after the swap I noticed that the bus
with the new battery was running slightly over 15 volts. Normally it=C2-
runs between 14.5 and 14.7.=C2- After some switching of avionics and othe
r
components, I took it off line.
Is there any obvious reason a new battery would cause a bus to suddenly
run at a higher voltage when at cruise and presumably the power is being
supplied by an alternator and the voltage controlled by an B&C
regulator?=C2- 15 volts is too high a charging voltage for an Odyssey per
their user doc.
My inclination is to adjust the regulator but I don't recall having to
do this with past battery changes or swaps (the regulator is really hard
to access so there's that too).
Thoughts and opinions welcome.
Bill "everytime I get comfortable with a system something new pops up"
Watson
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| Subject: | Re: B&C SD-8 Alternator/Regulator |
Well, when I first tore out all the wiring and installed an EFIS in my
plane, I refreshed all my Autolite 386 plugs with new ones. I did not have
any problem with noise in the data like I had recently, but on my third
flight my EFIS did not record data to the USB stick. I suspected a problem
with the EFIS when that happened. I certainly wasn't thinking it was caused
by the spark plugs at the time. In some of the following flights it would
periodically not record portions of the flight. However, as soon as I
installed a brand new mag, I got extreme noise on the engine data plus
failure to record data on every single flight starting shortly after
takeoff.
So, I have not tried a set of new plugs recently. Maybe it was not due to
the high resistance but one of the plugs was defective instead? Blaming the
problem on high resistance is only a theory at this point. However, I have
done nine test flights in the pattern sorting this out over the last couple
months, and now it is time to go places instead of experimenting any
further. Summer is almost over. I will gladly pay for expensive aircraft
plugs to put these problems behind me.
Ron
On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 1:11 PM Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Just out of curiosity, did you try a new set of 386s? Any chance the
> original setup had a different plug; perhaps a 14mm plug with thread
> adapter? My plane had 14mm plugs on the Lightspeed ignition when I bought
> it, but I changed to 386s out of paranoia when I found one of the adapters
> backed out about half way about a month after purchasing the plane.
>
> Charlie
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Brownout Step Up Converter |
Charlie, how about connecting a diode in parallel with the DC-DC converter
like you mentioned, but instead of running the DC-DC converter continuously,
set its output at just below 12 volts. Then the EFIS will normally be powered
via the parallel diode and not by the DC-DC converter.
Another option is to use a backup battery.
Dual diodes in one package like 863-MBRF20L45CTG can power the
EFIS from the source with the highest voltage.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498380#498380
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| Subject: | Re: Installed new battery, Bus voltage went up over |
15volts
Make sure the voltage regulator has a good ground connection and that
the voltage sense terminal has the exact same voltage as the battery.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498381#498381
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| Subject: | Re: Brownout Step Up Converter |
On 9/15/2020 1:37 PM, user9253 wrote:
>
> Charlie, how about connecting a diode in parallel with the DC-DC converter
> like you mentioned, but instead of running the DC-DC converter continuously,
> set its output at just below 12 volts. Then the EFIS will normally be powered
> via the parallel diode and not by the DC-DC converter.
> Another option is to use a backup battery.
> Dual diodes in one package like 863-MBRF20L45CTG can power the
> EFIS from the source with the highest voltage.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
Good thought on the voltage setting; that's basically what we'd have
with the AEC circuit, too.
I've long thought about using the boost/buck converter to both isolate
and keep fully charged a backup battery, but I do like the simplicity of
Bob's 'one battery to rule them all' philosophy. Also, having a backup
battery outside the EFIS (an old GRT HX) would mean that it wouldn't
turn off with the master, meaning that I'd soon forget to power it off,
meaning.... ;-)
Charlie
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| Subject: | Re: Brownout Step Up Converter |
How about using the DC-DC converter (no backup battery), but only energize
it during engine start? A dual diode will allow either the DC-DC
converter or the power bus to supply current to the EFIS. Wired that way,
there is no concern about the DC-DC converter malfunctioning during flight.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498385#498385
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| Subject: | Re: Brownout Step Up Converter |
On 9/15/2020 6:54 PM, user9253 wrote:
>
> How about using the DC-DC converter (no backup battery), but only energize
> it during engine start? A dual diode will allow either the DC-DC
> converter or the power bus to supply current to the EFIS. Wired that way,
> there is no concern about the DC-DC converter malfunctioning during flight.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
That's basically what is shown in Z101. I suppose it's worth giving a
random choice a try configured to the start button, and if it doesn't
work I could move it to the bus.
Thanks,
Charlie
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Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Sealed lead Acid battery |
Roger that.
William Daniell
+1 786 878 0246
On Tue, Sep 15, 2020, 07:50 Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 01:51 PM 9/14/2020, you wrote:
>
> Charlie thanks,
> I too have been using cheap chinese SLA batteries which is the only small
> ish battery I could obtain in Colombia.=C3=82 It is also the normally us
ed
> rotax battery there except=C3=82 where the battery is in the engine compa
rtment
> because the belief is that SLA dont handle heat well.=C3=82 =C3=82 Start
s my 912
> turbo fine.=C3=82 But the stupidest=C3=82 question is the one you don't
ask.=C3=82 And
> since I'm now in the US I have a few more alternatives...
>
>
> Rule #1, it's dumb to argue with success.
>
> Rule #2, when initiating a new experiment, you
> need data based on observation.
>
> When selecting a battery for an electrically dependent
> airplane, one needs a battery-only, endurance
> goal. Then be ready/willing to test the battery
> against that requirement. Swap it out for a new one when it
> fails the endurance test even if it still starts the engine,
>
> We've had many discussions here on the List over
> the years about suitability to task for a host
> of batteries. Some folks swear by the premium
> name brands, others have cited years of satisfactory
> service from generic products.
>
> But WITHOUT NUMBERS demonstrating compliance with
> numerically defined design goals, those
> conversations were little more than musings
> over beer and pretzels.
>
> For the most part, any and all SVLA products
> are fair game for use in your airplane. The
> deciding factor is $ownership$. How much
> $testing$ and $procurement$ expenses are
> incurred to keep your design goals covered?
>
> Years ago, some of my readers bought the cheapest,
> 18AH SLVA they could find (about $40 at the time) and
> simply replaced it every year. If they flew 50
> hours a year, then operating expense was under a
> $1/hr and testing expense was zero.
>
> A really expensive battery may prove to the
> the lowest cost per flight hour when
> demonstrated performance negates a lot of
> maintenance testing.
>
> If you have no battery-only endurance requirements,
> then you can run any battery like they do in most
> GA light aircraft . . . run 'em until they don't
> crank the engine any more. But keep in mind that
> most of those dark-n-stormy-night stories involving
> soggy batteries were penned by pilots who didn't
> recognize that they had battery-only endurance
> goals until it was too late to do anything about it.
>
> So, pick a battery. Set goals. Monitor performance
> over time and after you've gone through two or
> three batteries, you'll KNOW if it was a good
> value. We'd all appreciate it if you would share
> your discoveries here on the List.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
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