Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:02 AM - Re: Positively Negative (-) ? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 02:19 PM - Re: Positively Negative (-) ? (n1dw)
3. 05:31 PM - Re: Positively Negative (-) ? (Dick Tasker)
4. 06:03 PM - Re: Positively Negative (-) ? (Charlie England)
5. 06:25 PM - Re: Positively Negative (-) ? (n1dw)
6. 06:26 PM - Re: Positively Negative (-) ? (n1dw)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Positively Negative (-) ? |
At 04:43 PM 10/27/2020, you wrote:
>This comment may not be relevant as I am not aware of the engine
>installation. I have a single alternator dual battery configuration
>with batteries aft and 2 AWG cables between the batteries and
>firewall connection. From the latter connection, I feed the main
>bus and an e-bus via a diode. I also have direct switched feeds
>from the batteries to the e-bus. I have an electrically dependent
>automotive fuel injected conversion powerplant.
>
>I found that when attempting to start on one battery, I could not
>get a reliable start. But when I switched to the second battery
>directly to the e-bus, no starting problem. My conclusion is that
>the voltage drop while cranking the engine was sufficient to cause
>the ignition system to not operate reliably. This may have been due
>to the 9-10v cranking voltage drop in in addition to the up to 1v
>drop across the diode. It is my understanding that most ignition
>systems need 10v to operate reliably.
>
>My current process to start the engine is to crank on the A battery
>while feeding the B battery directly to the e-bus.
>
>Again, don't know if this is relevant to this discussion.
Very much so . . . but to offer cognizant
analysis of your observation, we'd have to
see a schematic of your distribution system
and a good physical description of the
installation.
Your observations are no doubt accurate
but anecdotal with respect to cause and
effect.
You don't seem to have an issue with
cranking (starter) performance but instead,
the ignition system seems especially
sensitive to low supply voltage. This
is curious as automotive electronics are
designed to function under exceedingly
trying conditions.
The batteries in automobiles are the
second worst maintained in practice
(farm equipment comes first). Any
automotive designer worth his salt
strives for state of battery to be
the last bastion of determination
for getting ol' bessy fired up.
If the starter motor achieves
rotation at all, getting one ideally
charged cylinder past TDC is going
to speak to failure/success. Voltage
to the electrics is generally not
the limiting factor.
The article referenced at the start
of this thread speaks in generalities
and offers no data that quantifies
improvements to be secured nor does
offer anecdotal evidence of a problem
in practice having been resolved.
Your narrative at least describes
actions taken and improvements noted
as a consequence of that action. But
it too is short on data that would
help us understand exactly what
is happening.
Bob . . .
Message 2
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| Subject: | Positively Negative (-) ? |
Bob,
Thank you for your comments. I have attached some JPEG images of my
relevant schematics. The originals are .ODG drawings (can't figure out how
to transfer to PDF). I hope these may help; let me know if there is
something else I can provide. FYI, the numbers interrupting the wires
between devices (nodes) are connector pin numbers.
Not sure what you mean by "a good physical description of the installation."
The only thing I can add, not included in the drawings, is that the firewall
passthroughs are 5/16" tin-plated threaded studs in an insulated frame mount
commonly used by boaters. Batteries are Odyssey PC680's.
The original electrical installation was done a couple decades ago and
generally followed the drawings of the engine converter for those engine
related components. I tried to follow your Z drawings (forgot which one)
for overall ships electrical installation. I have not measured more than
about .007 ohms resistance along any of the wires installed, but maybe I
should recheck some of those.
Additional notations in your prior response.
Doug
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
<owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com> On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2020 5:57 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Positively Negative (-) ?
At 04:43 PM 10/27/2020, you wrote:
This comment may not be relevant as I am not aware of the engine
installation. I have a single alternator dual battery configuration with
batteries aft and 2 AWG cables between the batteries and firewall
connection. From the latter connection, I feed the main bus and an e-bus
via a diode. I also have direct switched feeds from the batteries to the
e-bus. I have an electrically dependent automotive fuel injected conversion
powerplant.
I found that when attempting to start on one battery, I could not get a
reliable start. But when I switched to the second battery directly to the
e-bus, no starting problem. My conclusion is that the voltage drop while
cranking the engine was sufficient to cause the ignition system to not
operate reliably. This may have been due to the 9-10v cranking voltage
drop in in addition to the up to 1v drop across the diode. It is my
understanding that most ignition systems need 10v to operate reliably.
My current process to start the engine is to crank on the A battery while
feeding the B battery directly to the e-bus.
Again, don't know if this is relevant to this discussion.
Very much so . . . but to offer cognizant
analysis of your observation, we'd have to
see a schematic of your distribution system
and a good physical description of the
installation.
Your observations are no doubt accurate
but anecdotal with respect to cause and
effect.
You don't seem to have an issue with
cranking (starter) performance (true; should add that the original starter
was replaced a few years ago) but instead,
the ignition system seems especially
sensitive to low supply voltage. This
is curious as automotive electronics are
designed to function under exceedingly
trying conditions. (The ignition module is an Electromotive Tec2 unit,
doubtful that it was intended for automobiles, but..)
The batteries in automobiles are the
second worst maintained in practice
(farm equipment comes first). Any
automotive designer worth his salt
strives for state of battery to be
the last bastion of determination
for getting ol' bessy fired up.
If the starter motor achieves
rotation at all, getting one ideally
charged cylinder past TDC is going
to speak to failure/success. Voltage
to the electrics is generally not
the limiting factor. (I read somewhere that, in general, ignition modules
typically recommended at least 10v to be reliable; don't know if that is
typical or referred to a specific brand module.)
The article referenced at the start
of this thread speaks in generalities
and offers no data that quantifies
improvements to be secured nor does
offer anecdotal evidence of a problem
in practice having been resolved.
Your narrative at least describes
actions taken and improvements noted
as a consequence of that action. But
it too is short on data that would
help us understand exactly what
is happening. (I'd like to know what's happening, if only an intellectual
exercise.)
Bob . . .
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Positively Negative (-) ? |
If you can print ODG drawings you can use PDF Creator to make a PDF. Go to "https://www.pdfforge.org/pdfcreator/download" for the free version.
I use it to make PDFs from any program that can print.
Dick Tasker
n1dw wrote:
>
> Bob,
>
> Thank you for your comments. I have attached some JPEG images of my relevant
schematics. The originals are .ODG drawings (cant figure out how to transfer to
PDF). I hope these may help; let me
> know if there is something else I can provide. FYI, the numbers interrupting
the wires between devices (nodes) are connector pin numbers.
>
> Not sure what you mean by a good physical description of the installation. The
only thing I can add, not included in the drawings, is that the firewall passthroughs
are 5/16 tin-plated threaded
> studs in an insulated frame mount commonly used by boaters. Batteries are Odyssey
PC680s.
>
> The original electrical installation was done a couple decades ago and generally
followed the drawings of the engine converter for those engine related components.
I tried to follow your Z drawings
> (forgot which one) for overall ships electrical installation. I have not measured
more than about .007 ohms resistance along any of the wires installed, but
maybe I should recheck some of those.
>
> Additional notations in your prior response.
>
> Doug
>
> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com <owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com>
*On Behalf Of *Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 28, 2020 5:57 AM
> *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* RE: AeroElectric-List: Positively Negative (-) ?
>
> At 04:43 PM 10/27/2020, you wrote:
>
>
> This comment may not be relevant as I am not aware of the engine installation.
I have a single alternator dual battery configuration with batteries aft
and 2 AWG cables between the batteries
> and firewall connection. From the latter connection, I feed the main bus
and an e-bus via a diode. I also have direct switched feeds from the batteries
to the e-bus. I have an electrically
> dependent automotive fuel injected conversion powerplant.
>
> I found that when attempting to start on one battery, I could not get a reliable
start. But when I switched to the second battery directly to the e-bus,
no starting problem. My conclusion is
> that the voltage drop while cranking the engine was sufficient to cause the
ignition system to not operate reliably. This may have been due to the 9-10v
cranking voltage drop in in addition to
> the up to 1v drop across the diode. It is my understanding that most ignition
systems need 10v to operate reliably.
>
> My current process to start the engine is to crank on the A battery while
feeding the B battery directly to the e-bus.
>
> Again, dont know if this is relevant to this discussion.
>
> Very much so . . . but to offer cognizant
> analysis of your observation, we'd have to
> see a schematic of your distribution system
> and a good physical description of the
> installation.
>
> Your observations are no doubt accurate
> but anecdotal with respect to cause and
> effect.
>
> You don't seem to have an issue with
> cranking (starter) performance (true; should add that the original starter was
replaced a few years ago) but instead,
> the ignition system seems especially
> sensitive to low supply voltage. This
> is curious as automotive electronics are
> designed to function under exceedingly
> trying conditions. (The ignition module is an Electromotive Tec2 unit, doubtful
that it was intended for automobiles, but.)
>
> The batteries in automobiles are the
> second worst maintained in practice
> (farm equipment comes first). Any
> automotive designer worth his salt
> strives for state of battery to be
> the last bastion of determination
> for getting ol' bessy fired up.
>
> If the starter motor achieves
> rotation at all, getting one ideally
> charged cylinder past TDC is going
> to speak to failure/success. Voltage
> to the electrics is generally not
> the limiting factor. (I read somewhere that, in general, ignition modules typically
recommended at least 10v to be reliable; dont know if that is typical
or referred to a specific brand module.)
>
> The article referenced at the start
> of this thread speaks in generalities
> and offers no data that quantifies
> improvements to be secured nor does
> offer anecdotal evidence of a problem
> in practice having been resolved.
>
> Your narrative at least describes
> actions taken and improvements noted
> as a consequence of that action. But
> it too is short on data that would
> help us understand exactly what
> is happening. (Id like to know whats happening, if only an intellectual exercise.)
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Positively Negative (-) ? |
Or, continue to use jpgs, so we can view them within the email instead
of having to download them & open separately in Adobe.
;-)
On 10/28/2020 7:24 PM, Dick Tasker wrote:
> <dick@thetaskerfamily.com>
>
> If you can print ODG drawings you can use PDF Creator to make a PDF.
> Go to "https://www.pdfforge.org/pdfcreator/download" for the free
> version.
>
> I use it to make PDFs from any program that can print.
>
> Dick Tasker
>
> n1dw wrote:
>>
>> Bob,
>>
>> Thank you for your comments. I have attached some JPEG images of my
>> relevant schematics. The originals are .ODG drawings (cant figure
>> out how to transfer to PDF). I hope these may help; let me know if
>> there is something else I can provide. FYI, the numbers interrupting
>> the wires between devices (nodes) are connector pin numbers.
>>
>> Not sure what you mean by a good physical description of the
>> installation. The only thing I can add, not included in the
>> drawings, is that the firewall passthroughs are 5/16 tin-plated
>> threaded studs in an insulated frame mount commonly used by boaters.
>> Batteries are Odyssey PC680s.
>>
>> The original electrical installation was done a couple decades ago
>> and generally followed the drawings of the engine converter for those
>> engine related components. I tried to follow your Z drawings (forgot
>> which one) for overall ships electrical installation. I have not
>> measured more than about .007 ohms resistance along any of the wires
>> installed, but maybe I should recheck some of those.
>>
>> Additional notations in your prior response.
>>
>> Doug
>>
>> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>> <owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com> *On Behalf Of *Robert
>> L. Nuckolls, III
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 28, 2020 5:57 AM
>> *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>> *Subject:* RE: AeroElectric-List: Positively Negative (-) ?
>>
>> At 04:43 PM 10/27/2020, you wrote:
>>
>>
>> This comment may not be relevant as I am not aware of the engine
>> installation. I have a single alternator dual battery configuration
>> with batteries aft and 2 AWG cables between the batteries
>> and firewall connection. From the latter connection, I feed the
>> main bus and an e-bus via a diode. I also have direct switched feeds
>> from the batteries to the e-bus. I have an electrically
>> dependent automotive fuel injected conversion powerplant.
>>
>> I found that when attempting to start on one battery, I could not
>> get a reliable start. But when I switched to the second battery
>> directly to the e-bus, no starting problem. My conclusion is
>> that the voltage drop while cranking the engine was sufficient to
>> cause the ignition system to not operate reliably. This may have
>> been due to the 9-10v cranking voltage drop in in addition to
>> the up to 1v drop across the diode. It is my understanding that
>> most ignition systems need 10v to operate reliably.
>>
>> My current process to start the engine is to crank on the A
>> battery while feeding the B battery directly to the e-bus.
>>
>> Again, dont know if this is relevant to this discussion.
>>
>> Very much so . . . but to offer cognizant
>> analysis of your observation, we'd have to
>> see a schematic of your distribution system
>> and a good physical description of the
>> installation.
>>
>> Your observations are no doubt accurate
>> but anecdotal with respect to cause and
>> effect.
>>
>> You don't seem to have an issue with
>> cranking (starter) performance (true; should add that the original
>> starter was replaced a few years ago) but instead,
>> the ignition system seems especially
>> sensitive to low supply voltage. This
>> is curious as automotive electronics are
>> designed to function under exceedingly
>> trying conditions. (The ignition module is an Electromotive Tec2
>> unit, doubtful that it was intended for automobiles, but.)
>>
>> The batteries in automobiles are the
>> second worst maintained in practice
>> (farm equipment comes first). Any
>> automotive designer worth his salt
>> strives for state of battery to be
>> the last bastion of determination
>> for getting ol' bessy fired up.
>>
>> If the starter motor achieves
>> rotation at all, getting one ideally
>> charged cylinder past TDC is going
>> to speak to failure/success. Voltage
>> to the electrics is generally not
>> the limiting factor. (I read somewhere that, in general, ignition
>> modules typically recommended at least 10v to be reliable; dont know
>> if that is typical or referred to a specific brand module.)
>>
>> The article referenced at the start
>> of this thread speaks in generalities
>> and offers no data that quantifies
>> improvements to be secured nor does
>> offer anecdotal evidence of a problem
>> in practice having been resolved.
>>
>> Your narrative at least describes
>> actions taken and improvements noted
>> as a consequence of that action. But
>> it too is short on data that would
>> help us understand exactly what
>> is happening. (Id like to know whats happening, if only an
>> intellectual exercise.)
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>
>
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Message 5
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| Subject: | Positively Negative (-) ? |
Dick, thanks for the tip. Have attached the newly created PDF versions.
Doug
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
<owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com> On Behalf Of Dick Tasker
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2020 5:25 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Positively Negative (-) ?
--> <dick@thetaskerfamily.com>
If you can print ODG drawings you can use PDF Creator to make a PDF.-
Go to
"https://www.pdfforge.org/pdfcreator/download" for the free version.
I use it to make PDFs from any program that can print.
Dick Tasker
n1dw wrote:
>
> Bob,
>
> Thank you for your comments.- I have attached some JPEG images of my
> relevant schematics.- The originals are .ODG drawings (can=92t
figure out
how to transfer to PDF).- I hope these may help; let me know if there
is
something else I can provide.- FYI, the numbers interrupting the wires
between devices (nodes) are connector pin numbers.
>
> Not sure what you mean by =93a good physical description of the
> installation.=94- The only thing I can add, not included in the
drawings, is
that the firewall passthroughs are 5/16=94 tin-plated threaded studs in
an
insulated frame mount commonly used by boaters. -Batteries are Odyssey
PC680=92s.
>
> The original electrical installation was done a couple decades ago and
> generally followed the drawings of the engine converter for those
engine
related components. I tried to follow your Z drawings (forgot which one)
for
overall ships electrical installation.- I have not measured more than
about
.007 ohms resistance along any of the wires installed, but maybe I
should
recheck some of those.
>
> Additional notations in your prior response.
>
> Doug
>
> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> <owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com> *On Behalf Of *Robert
> L. Nuckolls, III
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 28, 2020 5:57 AM
> *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* RE: AeroElectric-List: Positively Negative (-) ?
>
> At 04:43 PM 10/27/2020, you wrote:
>
>
> This comment may not be relevant as I am not aware of the engine
installation.- I have a single alternator dual battery configuration
with
batteries aft and 2 AWG cables between the batteries
> and firewall connection.- From the latter connection, I feed the
main
bus and an e-bus via a diode.- I also have direct switched feeds from
the
batteries to the e-bus.- I have an electrically
> dependent automotive fuel injected conversion powerplant.
>
> I found that when attempting to start on one battery, I could not
get
a reliable start.- But when I switched to the second battery directly
to the
e-bus, no starting problem.- My conclusion is
> that the voltage drop while cranking the engine was sufficient to
cause the ignition system to not operate reliably.- This may have been
due
to the 9-10v- cranking voltage drop in in addition to
> the up to 1v drop across the diode.- It is my understanding that
most
ignition systems need 10v to operate reliably.
>
> My current process to start the engine is to crank on the A
battery
while feeding the B battery directly to the e-bus.
>
> Again, don=92t know if this is relevant to this discussion.
>
> - Very much so . . . but to offer cognizant
> - analysis of your observation, we'd have to
> - see a schematic of your distribution system
> - and a good physical description of the
> - installation.
>
> - Your observations are no doubt accurate
> - but anecdotal with respect to cause and
> - effect.
>
> - You don't seem to have an issue with
> - cranking (starter) performance (true; should add that the original
> starter was replaced a few years ago) but instead,
> - the ignition system seems especially
> - sensitive to low supply voltage. This
> - is curious as automotive electronics are
> - designed to function under exceedingly
> - trying conditions. (The ignition module is an Electromotive Tec2
> unit, doubtful that it was intended for automobiles, but=85.)
>
> - The batteries in automobiles are the
> - second worst maintained in practice
> - (farm equipment comes first). Any
> - automotive designer worth his salt
> - strives for state of battery to be
> - the last bastion of determination
> - for getting ol' bessy fired up.
>
> - If the starter motor achieves
> - rotation at all, getting one ideally
> - charged cylinder past TDC is going
> - to speak to failure/success. Voltage
> - to the electrics is generally not
> - the limiting factor. (I read somewhere that, in general, ignition
> modules typically recommended at least 10v to be reliable; don=92t
know
> if that is typical or referred to a specific brand module.)
>
> - The article referenced at the start
> - of this thread speaks in generalities
> - and offers no data that quantifies
> - improvements to be secured nor does
> - offer anecdotal evidence of a problem
> - in practice having been resolved.
>
> - Your narrative at least describes
> - actions taken and improvements noted
> - as a consequence of that action. But
> - it too is short on data that would
> - help us understand exactly what
> - is happening. (I=92d like to know what=92s happening, if only an
> intellectual exercise.)
>
>
> - Bob . . .
>
List
7-Day
Message 6
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| Subject: | Positively Negative (-) ? |
Also a good thought Charlie. Now I am confused
Doug
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com <owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com>
On Behalf Of Charlie England
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2020 5:58 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Positively Negative (-) ?
--> <ceengland7@gmail.com>
Or, continue to use jpgs, so we can view them within the email instead of having
to download them & open separately in Adobe.
;-)
On 10/28/2020 7:24 PM, Dick Tasker wrote:
> <dick@thetaskerfamily.com>
>
> If you can print ODG drawings you can use PDF Creator to make a PDF.
> Go to "https://www.pdfforge.org/pdfcreator/download" for the free
> version.
>
> I use it to make PDFs from any program that can print.
>
> Dick Tasker
>
> n1dw wrote:
>>
>> Bob,
>>
>> Thank you for your comments. I have attached some JPEG images of my
>> relevant schematics. The originals are .ODG drawings (cant figure
>> out how to transfer to PDF). I hope these may help; let me know if
>> there is something else I can provide. FYI, the numbers interrupting
>> the wires between devices (nodes) are connector pin numbers.
>>
>> Not sure what you mean by a good physical description of the
>> installation. The only thing I can add, not included in the
>> drawings, is that the firewall passthroughs are 5/16 tin-plated
>> threaded studs in an insulated frame mount commonly used by boaters.
>> Batteries are Odyssey PC680s.
>>
>> The original electrical installation was done a couple decades ago
>> and generally followed the drawings of the engine converter for those
>> engine related components. I tried to follow your Z drawings (forgot
>> which one) for overall ships electrical installation. I have not
>> measured more than about .007 ohms resistance along any of the wires
>> installed, but maybe I should recheck some of those.
>>
>> Additional notations in your prior response.
>>
>> Doug
>>
>> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>> <owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com> *On Behalf Of *Robert
>> L. Nuckolls, III
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 28, 2020 5:57 AM
>> *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>> *Subject:* RE: AeroElectric-List: Positively Negative (-) ?
>>
>> At 04:43 PM 10/27/2020, you wrote:
>>
>>
>> This comment may not be relevant as I am not aware of the engine
>> installation. I have a single alternator dual battery configuration
>> with batteries aft and 2 AWG cables between the batteries
>> and firewall connection. From the latter connection, I feed the
>> main bus and an e-bus via a diode. I also have direct switched feeds
>> from the batteries to the e-bus. I have an electrically
>> dependent automotive fuel injected conversion powerplant.
>>
>> I found that when attempting to start on one battery, I could not
>> get a reliable start. But when I switched to the second battery
>> directly to the e-bus, no starting problem. My conclusion is
>> that the voltage drop while cranking the engine was sufficient to
>> cause the ignition system to not operate reliably. This may have
>> been due to the 9-10v cranking voltage drop in in addition to
>> the up to 1v drop across the diode. It is my understanding that
>> most ignition systems need 10v to operate reliably.
>>
>> My current process to start the engine is to crank on the A
>> battery while feeding the B battery directly to the e-bus.
>>
>> Again, dont know if this is relevant to this discussion.
>>
>> Very much so . . . but to offer cognizant
>> analysis of your observation, we'd have to
>> see a schematic of your distribution system
>> and a good physical description of the
>> installation.
>>
>> Your observations are no doubt accurate
>> but anecdotal with respect to cause and
>> effect.
>>
>> You don't seem to have an issue with
>> cranking (starter) performance (true; should add that the original
>> starter was replaced a few years ago) but instead,
>> the ignition system seems especially
>> sensitive to low supply voltage. This
>> is curious as automotive electronics are
>> designed to function under exceedingly
>> trying conditions. (The ignition module is an Electromotive Tec2
>> unit, doubtful that it was intended for automobiles, but.)
>>
>> The batteries in automobiles are the
>> second worst maintained in practice
>> (farm equipment comes first). Any
>> automotive designer worth his salt
>> strives for state of battery to be
>> the last bastion of determination
>> for getting ol' bessy fired up.
>>
>> If the starter motor achieves
>> rotation at all, getting one ideally
>> charged cylinder past TDC is going
>> to speak to failure/success. Voltage
>> to the electrics is generally not
>> the limiting factor. (I read somewhere that, in general, ignition
>> modules typically recommended at least 10v to be reliable; dont know
>> if that is typical or referred to a specific brand module.)
>>
>> The article referenced at the start
>> of this thread speaks in generalities
>> and offers no data that quantifies
>> improvements to be secured nor does
>> offer anecdotal evidence of a problem
>> in practice having been resolved.
>>
>> Your narrative at least describes
>> actions taken and improvements noted
>> as a consequence of that action. But
>> it too is short on data that would
>> help us understand exactly what
>> is happening. (Id like to know whats happening, if only an
>> intellectual exercise.)
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>
>
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