---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 10/29/20: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:08 AM - What sort of screws would it be a good idea for you? (kaiwaters) 2. 08:44 AM - SMOKED RELAY (user9253) 3. 09:22 AM - Re: SMOKED RELAY (Charlie England) 4. 09:37 AM - Re: SMOKED RELAY (user9253) 5. 11:58 AM - Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS (Marvin McGraw) 6. 05:05 PM - Re: SMOKED RELAY (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 05:45 PM - Lead Acid Batteries () 8. 05:52 PM - Does Anyone Recognize This Nav Light? (Bill Hunter) 9. 06:29 PM - Re: Lead Acid Batteries (Matthew S. Whiting) 10. 07:04 PM - Re: Does Anyone Recognize This Nav Light? (Sebastien) 11. 07:20 PM - Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS (Marvin McGraw) 12. 07:40 PM - Re: Lead Acid Batteries (Kelly McMullen) 13. 08:03 PM - Re: Lead Acid Batteries (Charlie England) 14. 08:04 PM - Re: Lead Acid Batteries (Matthew S. Whiting) 15. 08:23 PM - Re: Lead Acid Batteries (Kelly McMullen) 16. 08:51 PM - car battery vs. deep cycle (Paul Millner) 17. 09:34 PM - Re: Does Anyone Recognize This Nav Light? (johnbright) 18. 10:23 PM - Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS (johnbright) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:08:16 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: What sort of screws would it be a good idea for you? From: "kaiwaters" Screws are the most flexible latches utilized in carpentry. Wood screws are helpful for rapidly assembling dances and clipping structures, joining bureau and furniture parts, mounting equipment and trim, and considerably more. Screws structure solid associations between parts produced using strong wood, compressed wood, and other sheet merchandise without the requirement for cut joinery. From heads to drives, focuses on strings, platings to coatings, our creator gives you an exhaustive instruction in the choices accessible in the realm of present-day screws. Online Builders merchants (https://lakerbfs.co.uk/) provide you different types of screws. Picking the correct wood screw used to be basic pick a zinc or metal screw with the correct size and length for the current task. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499008#499008 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:44:12 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: SMOKED RELAY From: "user9253" I applied 12 volts to the coil of an automotive type relay to test it. Smoke came out. I had forgotten that the relay contained an arc suppression diode. As luck would have it, I connected the 12 volts to the coil with polarity reversed. I can not buy an exact replacement part number CB1-D-12V because it is obsolete. I am having trouble finding a compatible replacement relay online. There are relays available with an internal resistor instead of a diode. Is a resistor good enough? It is impossible to locate a diode elsewhere in the circuit because it is sealed. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499010#499010 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:22:46 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SMOKED RELAY From: Charlie England On 10/29/2020 10:37 AM, user9253 wrote: > > I applied 12 volts to the coil of an automotive type relay to test it. Smoke > came out. I had forgotten that the relay contained an arc suppression diode. > As luck would have it, I connected the 12 volts to the coil with polarity > reversed. I can not buy an exact replacement part number CB1-D-12V > because it is obsolete. I am having trouble finding a compatible replacement > relay online. There are relays available with an internal resistor instead of a > diode. Is a resistor good enough? It is impossible to locate a diode > elsewhere in the circuit because it is sealed. > > -------- > Joe Gores Is it a typical 'cube' relay, as shown in this search? https://www.google.com/search?q=CB1-D-12V&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS843US843&oq=CB1-D-12V&aqs=chrome..69i57.3184157j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 Does it still function (coil & contacts still good)? If so, if you can't find a plug&play replacement you can simply splice a diode into the wiring harness from the coil positive to coil negative wires, anywhere in the circuit that's convenient. The basic 'cube' style relay shows up in dozens of listings on ebay & Amazon. If your controlling switch is rated for 10A or so, the diode probably won't make any difference in switch life (it should handle the insignificant arc energy). Charlie -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:37:12 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: SMOKED RELAY From: "user9253" Thanks Charlie. It looks like part number PB682-ND will replace the relay. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499013#499013 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:58:35 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS From: "Marvin McGraw" nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > At 06:44 AM 2/9/2020, you wrote: > > > Here is my idea for Z-14 with ENG BUS. The AUX side is primarily for powering the ENG BUS. The Main side is for all other consumers with an emergency aux feed to the ENG BUS from the Main Batt. > > It doesn't really matter much since all busses > are very robust. Put all engine loads on one > bus . . . either main or aux . . . you'll be > fine. No more busses needed > > > > Bob . . . If I understand this correctly, you are saying: (1) do not add the engine bus (2) put the engine EI/EFI components on either battery bus (3) the emergency procedure would be to close the cross-tie Am I missing anything? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499014#499014 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:05:43 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SMOKED RELAY >I can not buy an exact replacement part number CB1-D-12V >because it is obsolete. I am having trouble finding a compatible replacement >relay online. It was probably discontinued for the risk you've already experienced. > There are relays available with an internal resistor instead of a >diode. Is a resistor good enough? Yes . . . and the resistor is not polarity sensitive and will work just fine. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:45:51 PM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Lead Acid Batteries Hi All, I hope everyone is doing well. I have a couple of questions about lead acid batteries. First is the old tale that if you store a lead acid battery on the concrete floor it will discharge so keep it on a work bench or on wood blocks.is that actually true or have I just been "snipe hunting" all of these years (decades)? Second question is about allowing a lead acid battery to discharge all the way down to zero.or if it had gotten severely discharged a few times.it will no longer be serviceable. Is this accurate? If so why would a good battery become junk just because you "left the lights on" and drained it down to zero? Third question is what is the difference between a "car battery" and a "marine battery/ deep cycle battery"? Thanks everyone!!! Bill ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:52:19 PM PST US From: Bill Hunter Subject: AeroElectric-List: Does Anyone Recognize This Nav Light? Does anybody recognize this nav light assembly? It currently has incandescent light bulbs for the position lights however I would really like to change the light bulbs to LED so I was wondering if anybody has gone down this route before and would recommend what LED light bulbs to use? Thanks, Bill Hunter ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:29:59 PM PST US From: "Matthew S. Whiting" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Lead Acid Batteries Yes, the sitting on concrete is an old wives tale. Allowing a lead acid battery to completely discharge will definitely shorten its life as more lead sulphate will form than can be reversed when the batt ery is charged. And if it is cold out, it will freeze which will really sho rten its life quickly as the case will often split and let the acid (well mo stly water once fully discharged) leak out once it thaws. Matt Sent from my iPad > On Oct 29, 2020, at 8:54 PM, billhuntersemail@gmail.com wrote: > > =EF=BB > Hi All, > > I hope everyone is doing well. > > I have a couple of questions about lead acid batteries > > First is the old tale that if you store a lead acid battery on the concret e floor it will discharge so keep it on a work bench or on wood blocks is that actually true or have I just been =9Csnipe hunting=9D all of these years (decades)? > > Second question is about allowing a lead acid battery to discharge all the way down to zeroor if it had gotten severely discharged a few time sit will no longer be serviceable. Is this accurate? If so why wo uld a good battery become junk just because you =9Cleft the lights on =9D and drained it down to zero? > > Third question is what is the difference between a =9Ccar battery =9D and a =9Cmarine battery/ deep cycle battery=9D? > > Thanks everyone!!! > > Bill ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:04:53 PM PST US From: Sebastien Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Does Anyone Recognize This Nav Light? That looks like a Whelen rather than a Grimes. As for replacement, there's all sorts of half assed solutions but the proven ones are the Aveo: https://www.aircraftspruce.ca/catalog/elpages/aveoultraembedded.php?clickkey=5325 On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 6:00 PM Bill Hunter wrote: > Does anybody recognize this nav light assembly? > > It currently has incandescent light bulbs for the position lights however > I would really like to change the light bulbs to LED so I was wondering if > anybody has gone down this route before and would recommend what LED light > bulbs to use? > > Thanks, > > Bill Hunter > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:20:31 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS From: "Marvin McGraw" Marvin McGraw wrote: > > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > > At 06:44 AM 2/9/2020, you wrote: > > > > > Here is my idea for Z-14 with ENG BUS. The AUX side is primarily for powering the ENG BUS. The Main side is for all other consumers with an emergency aux feed to the ENG BUS from the Main Batt. > > > > It doesn't really matter much since all busses > > are very robust. Put all engine loads on one > > bus . . . either main or aux . . . you'll be > > fine. No more busses needed > > > > > > > > Bob . . . > > > If I understand this correctly, you are saying: > (1) do not add the engine bus > (2) put the engine EI/EFI components on either battery bus > (3) the emergency procedure would be to close the cross-tie > > Am I missing anything? Correction: (2) put the engine EI/EFI components on either the main bus or the aux bus Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499028#499028 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:40:26 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Lead Acid Batteries From: Kelly McMullen It was true when old wives were young, and battery cases were made of hard rubber. Once the switch was made to polypropylene or equivalent, it was no longer true. Battery's freeze point is dependent on state of charge. Discharged it can be close to freezing, but if fully charged it is somewhere near -70F. When I had plane in those temps, I made sure battery was removed before reaching -40. On 10/29/2020 6:19 PM, Matthew S. Whiting wrote: > Yes, the sitting on concrete is an old wives tale. > > Allowing a lead acid battery to completely discharge will definitely > shorten its life as more lead sulphate will form than can be reversed > when the battery is charged. And if it is cold out, it will freeze > which will really shorten its life quickly as the case will often split > and let the acid (well mostly water once fully discharged) leak out once > it thaws. > > Matt > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Oct 29, 2020, at 8:54 PM, billhuntersemail@gmail.com wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi All, >> >> I hope everyone is doing well. >> >> I have a couple of questions about lead acid batteries >> >> First is the old tale that if you store a lead acid battery on the >> concrete floor it will discharge so keep it on a work bench or on wood >> blocksis that actually true or have I just been snipe hunting all >> of these years (decades)? >> >> Second question is about allowing a lead acid battery to discharge all >> the way down to zeroor if it had gotten severely discharged a few >> timesit will no longer be serviceable. Is this accurate? If so why >> would a good battery become junk just because you left the lights on >> and drained it down to zero? >> >> Third question is what is the difference between a car battery and a >> marine battery/ deep cycle battery? >> >> Thanks everyone!!! >> >> Bill >> ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:03:26 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Lead Acid Batteries From: Charlie England On 10/29/2020 8:19 PM, Matthew S. Whiting wrote: > Yes, the sitting on concrete is an old wives tale. > > Allowing a lead acid battery to completely discharge will definitely > shorten its life as more lead sulphate will form than can be reversed > when the battery is charged. And if it is cold out, it will freeze > which will really shorten its life quickly as the case will often > split and let the acid (well mostly water once fully discharged) leak > out once it thaws. > > Matt > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Oct 29, 2020, at 8:54 PM, billhuntersemail@gmail.com wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi All, >> >> I hope everyone is doing well. >> >> I have a couple of questions about lead acid batteries >> >> First is the old tale that if you store a lead acid battery on the >> concrete floor it will discharge so keep it on a work bench or on >> wood blocksis that actually true or have I just been snipe hunting >> all of these years (decades)? >> >> Second question is about allowing a lead acid battery to discharge >> all the way down to zeroor if it had gotten severely discharged a >> few timesit will no longer be serviceable. Is this accurate? If so >> why would a good battery become junk just because you left the >> lights on and drained it down to zero? >> >> Third question is what is the difference between a car battery and >> a marine battery/ deep cycle battery? >> >> Thanks everyone!!! >> >> Bill >> To the last question: deep cycle have thicker plates, allowing deeper discharge without damaging the cells. Lots of docs available; just google 'starting battery vs deep cycle'. Charlie -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:04:55 PM PST US From: "Matthew S. Whiting" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Lead Acid Batteries I dont think any wives alive today were also around when batteries were last made with hard rubber cases that contained carbon and were slightly porous. Yes, a fully charged battery is good to somewhere around -80 F, but a fully discharged battery will freeze around 20 F. I always keep mine inside in the winter or on a battery maintainer. And inside is best if you may need to install the battery and use it as it will crank much better while warm than when sitting outside at -40. Sent from my iPad > On Oct 29, 2020, at 10:48 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: > > > It was true when old wives were young, and battery cases were made of hard rubber. Once the switch was made to polypropylene or equivalent, it was no longer true. Battery's freeze point is dependent on state of charge. Discharged it can be close to freezing, but if fully charged it is somewhere near -70F. When I had plane in those temps, I made sure battery was removed before reaching -40. > >> On 10/29/2020 6:19 PM, Matthew S. Whiting wrote: >> Yes, the sitting on concrete is an old wives tale. >> Allowing a lead acid battery to completely discharge will definitely shorten its life as more lead sulphate will form than can be reversed when the battery is charged. And if it is cold out, it will freeze which will really shorten its life quickly as the case will often split and let the acid (well mostly water once fully discharged) leak out once it thaws. >> Matt >> Sent from my iPad >>>> On Oct 29, 2020, at 8:54 PM, billhuntersemail@gmail.com wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> I hope everyone is doing well. >>> >>> I have a couple of questions about lead acid batteries >>> >>> First is the old tale that if you store a lead acid battery on the concrete floor it will discharge so keep it on a work bench or on wood blocksis that actually true or have I just been snipe hunting all of these years (decades)? >>> >>> Second question is about allowing a lead acid battery to discharge all the way down to zeroor if it had gotten severely discharged a few timesit will no longer be serviceable. Is this accurate? If so why would a good battery become junk just because you left the lights on and drained it down to zero? >>> >>> Third question is what is the difference between a car battery and a marine battery/ deep cycle battery? >>> >>> Thanks everyone!!! >>> >>> Bill >>> > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:23:42 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Lead Acid Batteries From: Kelly McMullen Hmmm, my wife is older than I am(and a pilot), and I worked on hard rubber case batteries in both aircraft and autos. In fact battery recycling shops were common that melted the lead after cleaning of old acid, made new plates, and installed in the rubber cases. Of course many are now super fund sites. IIRC the Diehard series was one of the first polyethylene or propylene, back in the late 60's. Having an aircraft on open ramp in Fairbanks in the 70s, with no power at tiedowns, had to pull battery, take home and occasionally charge. Kelly On 10/29/2020 8:00 PM, Matthew S. Whiting wrote: > > I dont think any wives alive today were also around when batteries were last made with hard rubber cases that contained carbon and were slightly porous. > > Yes, a fully charged battery is good to somewhere around -80 F, but a fully discharged battery will freeze around 20 F. I always keep mine inside in the winter or on a battery maintainer. And inside is best if you may need to install the battery and use it as it will crank much better while warm than when sitting outside at -40. > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Oct 29, 2020, at 10:48 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: >> >> >> It was true when old wives were young, and battery cases were made of hard rubber. Once the switch was made to polypropylene or equivalent, it was no longer true. Battery's freeze point is dependent on state of charge. Discharged it can be close to freezing, but if fully charged it is somewhere near -70F. When I had plane in those temps, I made sure battery was removed before reaching -40. >> >>> On 10/29/2020 6:19 PM, Matthew S. Whiting wrote: >>> Yes, the sitting on concrete is an old wives tale. >>> Allowing a lead acid battery to completely discharge will definitely shorten its life as more lead sulphate will form than can be reversed when the battery is charged. And if it is cold out, it will freeze which will really shorten its life quickly as the case will often split and let the acid (well mostly water once fully discharged) leak out once it thaws. >>> Matt >>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> On Oct 29, 2020, at 8:54 PM, billhuntersemail@gmail.com wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> >>>> I hope everyone is doing well. >>>> >>>> I have a couple of questions about lead acid batteries >>>> >>>> First is the old tale that if you store a lead acid battery on the concrete floor it will discharge so keep it on a work bench or on wood blocksis that actually true or have I just been snipe hunting all of these years (decades)? >>>> >>>> Second question is about allowing a lead acid battery to discharge all the way down to zeroor if it had gotten severely discharged a few timesit will no longer be serviceable. Is this accurate? If so why would a good battery become junk just because you left the lights on and drained it down to zero? >>>> >>>> Third question is what is the difference between a car battery and a marine battery/ deep cycle battery? >>>> >>>> Thanks everyone!!! >>>> >>>> Bill >>>> >> >> >> > > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:51:12 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: car battery vs. deep cycle From: Paul Millner On 10/29/2020 7:32 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: > the difference between a car battery and a marine battery/ deep > cycle battery? In order to deep cycle a battery repeatedly and not destroy it, two things are different: the metallurgy of the lead pastes used to make it, and the structure of the plates themselves... the metallurgy is more forgiving of sulfation; the plate structure is stiffer... better able to withstand sustained discharges (which might warp lesser plates/grids); but, the stiffer grids occupy space that COULD be occupied with more lead paste... hence reducing battery capacity, compared to non-deep-cycle batteries. Paul ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:34:26 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Does Anyone Recognize This Nav Light? From: "johnbright" cluros(at)gmail.com wrote: > ... the proven ones are the Aveo: > > https://www.aircraftspruce.ca/catalog/elpages/aveoultraembedded.php?clickkey=5325 (https://www.aircraftspruce.ca/catalog/elpages/aveoultraembedded.php?clickkey=5325) Is AeroLeds not a good product? Anyway, I think the OP is looking to replace the incandescent bulbs only. Maybe these: https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/wingtipLED11-14885.php?gclid=CjwKCAjw0On8BRAgEiwAincsHC9ZYPASI-k4eNx2i1boOo1Hc2-cd1XW_G_facZVW2stvy_zPUj7ehoCN60QAvD_BwE -------- John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360 Z-101 single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F. john_s_bright@yahoo.com, Newport News, Va https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1u6GeZo6pmBWsKykLNVQMvu4o1VEVyP4K Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499034#499034 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:23:56 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z14 with SDS EM5 ENG BUS From: "johnbright" Marvin McGraw wrote: > > nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: > > At 06:44 AM 2/9/2020, you wrote: > > > > > Here is my idea for Z-14 with ENG BUS. The AUX side is primarily for powering the ENG BUS. The Main side is for all other consumers with an emergency aux feed to the ENG BUS from the Main Batt. > > > > It doesn't really matter much since all busses > > are very robust. Put all engine loads on one > > bus . . . either main or aux . . . you'll be > > fine. No more busses needed > > > > > > Bob . . . > > > If I understand this correctly, you are saying: > (1) do not add the engine bus > (2) put the engine EI/EFI components on either the main bus or the aux bus > (3) the emergency procedure would be to close the cross-tie > > Am I missing anything? Hi Marvin, Have you seen Z101? Bob N started developing it just after the OP's (Jeff Parker) post and Jeff has moved to a schematic using Z101 as a template. It's installed in his RV-8 project and has been powered up but not flying yet. In case you don't have a link to the Z-dwgs they are at http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/ I don't know if this info helps you. I know you have Z14 flying with dual SDS EFI/I. -------- John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360 Z-101 single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F. john_s_bright@yahoo.com, Newport News, Va https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1u6GeZo6pmBWsKykLNVQMvu4o1VEVyP4K Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499035#499035 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.