Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:37 AM - Re: Can I closely bundle 120vac with aircraft wiring? (user9253)
2. 06:16 AM - automatic switch (Ken Ryan)
3. 07:56 AM - Re: automatic switch (Peter Russell)
4. 08:17 AM - Re: automatic switch (Charlie England)
5. 08:26 AM - Re: automatic switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 08:29 AM - Re: automatic switch (ashleysc@broadstripe.net)
7. 09:24 AM - Re: automatic switch (Ken Ryan)
8. 11:17 AM - Re: automatic switch (Charlie England)
9. 11:43 AM - Re: automatic switch (Ken Ryan)
10. 12:07 PM - Re: automatic switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 12:11 PM - Re: automatic switch (Charlie England)
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| Subject: | Re: Can I closely bundle 120vac with aircraft wiring? |
There will not be a problem running AC wires near DC wires.
[as long as the AC is unplugged before flying :-) ]
Use heat conductive paste between the oil tank and heating band.
My engine heat pad failed because it had trouble adhering to the curved surface.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499773#499773
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| Subject: | automatic switch |
This is for a hangar home that is under construction, so it is relevant :)
I am planning a small solar/generator powered emergency electrical system.
Three solar panels, a 4800 watt-hour lithium battery, charge controller and
an inverter/charger.
It's function will be to run necessary equipment (boiler, unit heater, well
pump, refrigerator/freezer) in the event of a power outage.
I have experience with systems like this from having built three campers.
But this is different in that I would like to have a switch that
automatically detects when the power goes off, and switches things over to
the alternate system.
I know such switches exist, but I know nothing about them -- how they
operate, how to choose one, how to wire one into the system, etc. I would
appreciate any info people might have.
Ken Ryan
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: automatic switch |
Try looking at IGBT devices ..maybe checkout DIGAKEY PRODUCTS
.
________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com <owner-aeroelectric-list
-server@matronics.com> on behalf of Ken Ryan <keninalaska@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2020 2:11 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: automatic switch
This is for a hangar home that is under construction, so it is relevant :)
I am planning a small solar/generator powered emergency electrical system.
Three solar panels, a 4800 watt-hour lithium battery, charge controller and
an inverter/charger.
It's function will be to run necessary equipment (boiler, unit heater, well
pump, refrigerator/freezer) in the event of a power outage.
I have experience with systems like this from having built three campers. B
ut this is different in that I would like to have a switch that automatical
ly detects when the power goes off, and switches things over to the alterna
te system.
I know such switches exist, but I know nothing about them -- how they opera
te, how to choose one, how to wire one into the system, etc. I would apprec
iate any info people might have.
Ken Ryan
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: automatic switch |
On 12/23/2020 8:11 AM, Ken Ryan wrote:
> This is for a hangar home that is under construction, so it is
> relevant :)
>
> I am planning a small solar/generator powered emergency electrical
> system. Three solar panels, a 4800 watt-hour lithium battery, charge
> controller and an inverter/charger.
>
> It's function will be to run necessary equipment (boiler, unit heater,
> well pump, refrigerator/freezer) in the event of a power outage.
>
> I have experience with systems like this from having built three
> campers. But this is different in that I would like to have a switch
> that automatically detects when the power goes off, and switches
> things over to the alternate system.
>
> I know such switches exist, but I know nothing about them -- how they
> operate, how to choose one, how to wire one into the system, etc. I
> would appreciate any info people might have.
>
> Ken Ryan
Hi Ken,
At their simplest, they are DPDT relays with common to load, normally
closed terminals tied to the backup generator and normally open
terminals tied to the line. Line power activates the coil of the relay.
When line power 'drops', the relay switches to the backup terminals.
I've got a backup generator on my house with the mfgr's purpose-built
switch; more complex in that it manages the generator startup and (IIRC)
waits to apply the load until the generator is up to speed. My setup is
complicated a bit (OK, a lot) because I actually have 3 phase power to
my house, and a standard single phase generator. I have some 220V single
phase loads that have one leg on the 3rd phase, so I have to also switch
one leg of a 3 phase load to one of the single phase legs when the
generator comes on line. For this, I used a relatively inexpensive
automatic switch similar to this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/373107679744?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata=enc%3AAQAFAAACQBaobrjLl8XobRIiIML1V4Imu%252Fn%252BzU5L90Z278x5ickkd%252F0I%252BERpYfmzqCvv7sUYEiMnF2axAEl9q2lSCIlkYaYVHn3mJ6Wa5wEMvmDn8uxTMxj32yK3bDxTkgR4V9edhGXnRvcQ0vUf%252F93bvTeb%252FXHCtlg3u8RUWERU5%252FH0mqbicjj13f0qSPcudz4EzH3b4BHBQVAkU9eQV8rT4%252FR7c33dX8Cgzc7JCEasmNKLnaYUCCJY52pfjr8K1fz23LQiXAJ%252BE7EZmHwX6M0QKbZLkynKTAgD%252F7pwKwPfudNsCEGUOoaljGVx5x1neFVG2sqOItY0ASop8TY25HVbBo4TnBNr5oGg2l7HLvWwU2h10XBWuGAbZceqPsRMahjxbsAstgc3cy2HKbQSB8u4Qwc20%252F5Bi8J5s7x2BXdBDKjCkEMwhXL2B3MPlNKH15cUioOkGz8A1SKEnDlG4evpmD1a%252BVfw0wRfplwi5%252FsKD4slLo7vluRxfES7mJtX%252BmbuRsd1v5bPV7s8NcEt1QBK3gtbpVluwdyjtscnf1zv9XJossDhZ%252FkTBLrdCOCKM75s0FMz72qZrrTkpg%252F6a5WNP8rQXa6v6jgKNxHgf%252BosKXaSmmKPAOg2XEbJ6TGGHA1ZbfU2Q7%252BPFKoknYYCi04jPR3V8Gi4c%252BFpn2ICvume959kr%252BS9r35h088j%252FPzJA745eko0wRGNxezMNVf55Dc1zSuuvByAknxZz4YyfpMfsIY5LhYgAqBlTio99SI2mPzW8rIUbw%253D%253D%7Ccksum%3A3731076797441dfdcb105a744a9faf66816ba7733d1e%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A3268220&chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=373107679744&targetid=1068323853350&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9013952&poi=&campaignid=10456336033&mkgroupid=106723176427&rlsatarget=aud-622524042478:pla-1068323853350&abcId=2146001&merchantid=6296724&gclid=CjwKCAiA8ov_BRAoEiwAOZogwbEA9XSqJRMLH163QnMuK2YJhtJ-ClTlNXpnOjryz8AOak3lzDW8lBoCpXEQAvD_BwE
Markings are not in English, and sorting out how to connect the device
took some time and effort.
Note that I'm so cheap I'll waste a week to save a few dollars, and I
also have a reasonable history around electrical 'stuff' (my father was
an electrician his whole career, and I ran an electronics repair company
before being hired by USPS as an electronics tech). If you have a solid
foundation in electrical/electronic principles and you're willing to put
in the effort, you can probably DIY, but if you're uncomfortable with
the idea, it might be time to call an electrician.
Does that help?
--
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: automatic switch |
>
>I know such switches exist, but I know nothing about them -- how
>they operate, how to
>choose one, how to wire one into the system, etc. I would appreciate
>any info people might have.
>
>Ken Ryan
Lots of products out there but not difficult to build
The 'transfer' device is simply a two-pole, double-throw
contactor that connects loads to EITHER ac mains OR
inverter.
You'll need a control system with some simple logic.
(1) Transfer to INVERTER is asserted when (a)
battery voltage is higher than some minimum
-AND- (b) when AC mains power is not present.
(2) Inverter system is in a 'relaxed maintenance'
mode any time AC mains power is present.
(3) you might need a timer with xx milliseconds
delay from time AC mains fails until transfer
is asserted. Needed only if inverter doesn't gracefully
grunt a load during startup. Not likely but
should be confirmed.
There are dozens of off-the-shelf product that
would accomplish this task. Check out websites
that target off-grid, homepower systems.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
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| Subject: | Re: automatic switch |
Hi Ken;
They're available and called (appropriately) "automatic transfer switch." They're
generally used to transfer from utility current to emergency generator current,
but will work equally well in your application. There are also "manual transfer
switches," if you want to save some money.
Cheers! Stu.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Ryan" <keninalaska@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2020 6:11:44 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: automatic switch
This is for a hangar home that is under construction, so it is relevant :)
I am planning a small solar/generator powered emergency electrical system. Three
solar panels, a 4800 watt-hour lithium battery, charge controller and an inverter/charger.
It's function will be to run necessary equipment (boiler, unit heater, well pump,
refrigerator/freezer) in the event of a power outage.
I have experience with systems like this from having built three campers. But this
is different in that I would like to have a switch that automatically detects
when the power goes off, and switches things over to the alternate system.
I know such switches exist, but I know nothing about them -- how they operate,
how to choose one, how to wire one into the system, etc. I would appreciate any
info people might have.
Ken Ryan
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: automatic switch |
Thanks everyone. I think I understand how to do it now. Perhaps those with
knowledge of these systems can check my work:
a) battery (3600 watt-hours) lithium
b) connect solar (1100 watts) through solar charge control to battery
c) connect 240v (output) inverter/battery charger to battery
d) install an automatic transfer switch to house electrical system (power
all loads)
e) connect the output of the inverter to the transfer switch (where
normally a generator would be connected)
f) run a 110 volt outlet to the battery charger that is built into the
inverter
g) if battery gets low, connect 3kw 110v Honda generator to the
inverter/charger to charge the battery (when solar is insufficient)
h) in the summer, when there is plenty of power, I could cut the power from
the grid and run off solar.
When the power goes out, the transfer switch cuts connection to the grid
and makes connection to the inverter. When generator is connected to
inverter/charger, generator runs loads and recharges battery. When power
from grid returns, the transfer switch cuts the connection to the inverter
and makes the connection to the grid.
So I guess any generic automatic transfer switch should work, right?
On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 7:34 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
> I know such switches exist, but I know nothing about them -- how they
> operate, how to
> choose one, how to wire one into the system, etc. I would appreciate any
> info people might have.
>
> Ken Ryan
>
>
> Lots of products out there but not difficult to build
>
> The 'transfer' device is simply a two-pole, double-throw
> contactor that connects loads to EITHER ac mains OR
> inverter.
>
> You'll need a control system with some simple logic.
>
> (1) Transfer to INVERTER is asserted when (a)
> battery voltage is higher than some minimum
> -AND- (b) when AC mains power is not present.
>
> (2) Inverter system is in a 'relaxed maintenance'
> mode any time AC mains power is present.
>
> (3) you might need a timer with xx milliseconds
> delay from time AC mains fails until transfer
> is asserted. Needed only if inverter doesn't gracefully
> grunt a load during startup. Not likely but
> should be confirmed.
>
> There are dozens of off-the-shelf product that
> would accomplish this task. Check out websites
> that target off-grid, homepower systems.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
> survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
> out of that stuff?"
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: automatic switch |
Your problem will be that you're not talking about enough 'grunt' from
the solar/battery/inverter system, to support the whole house. I had
similar issues with my 12KW 'whole house' generator; it won't support
both AC units, electric oven, etc while lighting the house. If you do
some googling of how smaller generating systems are set up, there will
be a main panel which feeds the majority of loads. One breaker in the
main panel will feed the transfer switch, which will then feed a
sub-panel. That sub-panel then feeds the essential circuits. The 'off
the shelf' switches made for whole house backup generators often
incorporate the sub-panel in the same box with the transfer switch. This
one (1st random link I hit) is very similar to the one used with my 12KW
system:
https://www.zoro.com/generac-automatic-transfer-switch-100a-gray-rxg16eza1/i/G5258373/
Charlie
On 12/23/2020 11:18 AM, Ken Ryan wrote:
> Thanks everyone. I think I understand how to do it now. Perhaps those
> with knowledge of these systems can check my work:
>
> a) battery (3600 watt-hours) lithium
> b) connect solar (1100 watts) through solar charge control to battery
> c) connect 240v (output) inverter/battery charger to battery
> d) install an automatic transfer switch to house electrical system
> (power all loads)
> e) connect the output of the inverter to the transfer switch (where
> normally a generator would be connected)
> f) run a 110 volt outlet to the battery charger that is built into the
> inverter
> g) if battery gets low, connect 3kw 110v Honda generator to the
> inverter/charger to charge the battery (when solar is insufficient)
> h) in the summer, when there is plenty of power, I could cut the power
> from the grid and run off solar.
>
> When the power goes out, the transfer switch cuts connection to the
> grid and makes connection to the inverter. When generator is connected
> to inverter/charger, generator runs loads and recharges battery. When
> power from grid returns, the transfer switch cuts the connection to
> the inverter and makes the connection to the grid.
>
> So I guess any generic automatic transfer switch should work, right?
>
> On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 7:34 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com <mailto:nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> I know such switches exist, but I know nothing about them -- how
>> they operate, how to
>> choose one, how to wire one into the system, etc. I would
>> appreciate any info people might have.
>>
>> Ken Ryan
>
> Lots of products out there but not difficult to build
>
> The 'transfer' device is simply a two-pole, double-throw
> contactor that connects loads to EITHER ac mains OR
> inverter.
>
> You'll need a control system with some simple logic.
>
> (1) Transfer to INVERTER is asserted when (a)
> battery voltage is higher than some minimum
> -AND- (b) when AC mains power is not present.
>
> (2) Inverter system is in a 'relaxed maintenance'
> mode any time AC mains power is present.
>
> (3) you might need a timer with xx milliseconds
> delay from time AC mains fails until transfer
> is asserted. Needed only if inverter doesn't gracefully
> grunt a load during startup. Not likely but
> should be confirmed.
>
> There are dozens of off-the-shelf product that
> would accomplish this task. Check out websites
> that target off-grid, homepower systems.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
> survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
> out of that stuff?"
>
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| Subject: | Re: automatic switch |
I would manage this by limiting my usage during a power outage. Everything
is available, but everything is not used.
On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 10:23 AM Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Your problem will be that you're not talking about enough 'grunt' from the
> solar/battery/inverter system, to support the whole house. I had similar
> issues with my 12KW 'whole house' generator; it won't support both AC
> units, electric oven, etc while lighting the house. If you do some googling
> of how smaller generating systems are set up, there will be a main panel
> which feeds the majority of loads. One breaker in the main panel will feed
> the transfer switch, which will then feed a sub-panel. That sub-panel then
> feeds the essential circuits. The 'off the shelf' switches made for whole
> house backup generators often incorporate the sub-panel in the same box
> with the transfer switch. This one (1st random link I hit) is very similar
> to the one used with my 12KW system:
>
> https://www.zoro.com/generac-automatic-transfer-switch-100a-gray-rxg16eza1/i/G5258373/
>
> Charlie
>
> On 12/23/2020 11:18 AM, Ken Ryan wrote:
>
> Thanks everyone. I think I understand how to do it now. Perhaps those with
> knowledge of these systems can check my work:
>
> a) battery (3600 watt-hours) lithium
> b) connect solar (1100 watts) through solar charge control to battery
> c) connect 240v (output) inverter/battery charger to battery
> d) install an automatic transfer switch to house electrical system (power
> all loads)
> e) connect the output of the inverter to the transfer switch (where
> normally a generator would be connected)
> f) run a 110 volt outlet to the battery charger that is built into the
> inverter
> g) if battery gets low, connect 3kw 110v Honda generator to the
> inverter/charger to charge the battery (when solar is insufficient)
> h) in the summer, when there is plenty of power, I could cut the power
> from the grid and run off solar.
>
> When the power goes out, the transfer switch cuts connection to the grid
> and makes connection to the inverter. When generator is connected to
> inverter/charger, generator runs loads and recharges battery. When power
> from grid returns, the transfer switch cuts the connection to the inverter
> and makes the connection to the grid.
>
> So I guess any generic automatic transfer switch should work, right?
>
> On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 7:34 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I know such switches exist, but I know nothing about them -- how they
>> operate, how to
>> choose one, how to wire one into the system, etc. I would appreciate any
>> info people might have.
>>
>> Ken Ryan
>>
>>
>> Lots of products out there but not difficult to build
>>
>> The 'transfer' device is simply a two-pole, double-throw
>> contactor that connects loads to EITHER ac mains OR
>> inverter.
>>
>> You'll need a control system with some simple logic.
>>
>> (1) Transfer to INVERTER is asserted when (a)
>> battery voltage is higher than some minimum
>> -AND- (b) when AC mains power is not present.
>>
>> (2) Inverter system is in a 'relaxed maintenance'
>> mode any time AC mains power is present.
>>
>> (3) you might need a timer with xx milliseconds
>> delay from time AC mains fails until transfer
>> is asserted. Needed only if inverter doesn't gracefully
>> grunt a load during startup. Not likely but
>> should be confirmed.
>>
>> There are dozens of off-the-shelf product that
>> would accomplish this task. Check out websites
>> that target off-grid, homepower systems.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>> Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
>> survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
>> out of that stuff?"
>>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: automatic switch |
At 01:38 PM 12/23/2020, you wrote:
>I would manage this by limiting my usage during a power outage.
>Everything is available, but everything is not used.
I have a manual system where I use the
feeder to the a/c compressor as a means
for getting power into the house from
and outside generator.
I manually transfer the a/c feeder over
to the generator. I also have to open
the a/c mains breaker out on my meter box.
I open breakers to all 240v appliances
to avoid inadvertent overloads.
This arrangement with a 5500W generator
will allow us to run more than adequate
lights, freezer, refrigeration, furnaces,
etc. I've got a natural gas conversion kit
yet to install on on the generator so as
to do away with storing large amounts of
gasoline and then having to periodically
top off the tank.
This whole system was crafted from
off-the-shelf materials from Harbor
Freight and the N.G. Conversion kit
for under $700. Best yet, the generator
remains portable for the occasional off-site
power needs.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
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| Subject: | Re: automatic switch |
That's fine, but if it's 'automatic', that implies that it can switch over
and begin consuming power off the backup(s) whether you're there to 'load
shed' or not. Just something to think about.
On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 1:52 PM Ken Ryan <keninalaska@gmail.com> wrote:
> I would manage this by limiting my usage during a power outage. Everything
> is available, but everything is not used.
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 10:23 AM Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Your problem will be that you're not talking about enough 'grunt' from
>> the solar/battery/inverter system, to support the whole house. I had
>> similar issues with my 12KW 'whole house' generator; it won't support both
>> AC units, electric oven, etc while lighting the house. If you do some
>> googling of how smaller generating systems are set up, there will be a main
>> panel which feeds the majority of loads. One breaker in the main panel will
>> feed the transfer switch, which will then feed a sub-panel. That sub-panel
>> then feeds the essential circuits. The 'off the shelf' switches made for
>> whole house backup generators often incorporate the sub-panel in the same
>> box with the transfer switch. This one (1st random link I hit) is very
>> similar to the one used with my 12KW system:
>>
>> https://www.zoro.com/generac-automatic-transfer-switch-100a-gray-rxg16eza1/i/G5258373/
>>
>> Charlie
>>
>> On 12/23/2020 11:18 AM, Ken Ryan wrote:
>>
>> Thanks everyone. I think I understand how to do it now. Perhaps those
>> with knowledge of these systems can check my work:
>>
>> a) battery (3600 watt-hours) lithium
>> b) connect solar (1100 watts) through solar charge control to battery
>> c) connect 240v (output) inverter/battery charger to battery
>> d) install an automatic transfer switch to house electrical system (power
>> all loads)
>> e) connect the output of the inverter to the transfer switch (where
>> normally a generator would be connected)
>> f) run a 110 volt outlet to the battery charger that is built into the
>> inverter
>> g) if battery gets low, connect 3kw 110v Honda generator to the
>> inverter/charger to charge the battery (when solar is insufficient)
>> h) in the summer, when there is plenty of power, I could cut the power
>> from the grid and run off solar.
>>
>> When the power goes out, the transfer switch cuts connection to the grid
>> and makes connection to the inverter. When generator is connected to
>> inverter/charger, generator runs loads and recharges battery. When power
>> from grid returns, the transfer switch cuts the connection to the inverter
>> and makes the connection to the grid.
>>
>> So I guess any generic automatic transfer switch should work, right?
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 7:34 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
>> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I know such switches exist, but I know nothing about them -- how they
>>> operate, how to
>>> choose one, how to wire one into the system, etc. I would appreciate any
>>> info people might have.
>>>
>>> Ken Ryan
>>>
>>>
>>> Lots of products out there but not difficult to build
>>>
>>> The 'transfer' device is simply a two-pole, double-throw
>>> contactor that connects loads to EITHER ac mains OR
>>> inverter.
>>>
>>> You'll need a control system with some simple logic.
>>>
>>> (1) Transfer to INVERTER is asserted when (a)
>>> battery voltage is higher than some minimum
>>> -AND- (b) when AC mains power is not present.
>>>
>>> (2) Inverter system is in a 'relaxed maintenance'
>>> mode any time AC mains power is present.
>>>
>>> (3) you might need a timer with xx milliseconds
>>> delay from time AC mains fails until transfer
>>> is asserted. Needed only if inverter doesn't gracefully
>>> grunt a load during startup. Not likely but
>>> should be confirmed.
>>>
>>> There are dozens of off-the-shelf product that
>>> would accomplish this task. Check out websites
>>> that target off-grid, homepower systems.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bob . . .
>>>
>>> Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
>>> survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
>>> out of that stuff?"
>>>
>>
>>
>>
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