---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 01/10/21: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:04 AM - Re: Battery Charger (dj_theis) 2. 05:43 AM - Re: Battery Charger (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 06:03 AM - Re: RV10 Electrical Issue (w/ Format Clean Up) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 06:50 AM - Re: RV10 Electrical Issue (w/ Format Clean Up) (Charlie England) 5. 10:32 AM - Re: RV10 Electrical Issue (w/ Format Clean Up) (Jeff Luckey) 6. 11:00 AM - Re: RV10 Electrical Issue (w/ Format Clean Up) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 11:16 AM - Re: RV10 Electrical Issue (w/ Format Clean Up) (Charlie England) 8. 12:46 PM - Re: Battery Charger (Pete) 9. 01:05 PM - Re: RV10 Electrical Issue (w/ Format Clean Up) (Jeff Luckey) 10. 01:25 PM - Re: RV10 Electrical Issue (w/ Format Clean Up) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 01:29 PM - Re: Battery Charger (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 03:19 PM - Two charging devices running in parallel? (rparigoris) 13. 03:58 PM - Re: Monarch EE Anti-Plugging Field Accelerating? (rparigoris) 14. 04:11 PM - Re: RV10 Electrical Issue (w/ Format Clean Up) (WILLIAM BOOTH) 15. 06:11 PM - Re: RV10 Electrical Issue (w/ Format Clean Up) (Dick Tasker) 16. 07:25 PM - Re: RV10 Electrical Issue (w/ Format Clean Up) (user9253) 17. 08:00 PM - Re: Re: RV10 Electrical Issue (w/ Format Clean Up) (Charlie England) 18. 08:59 PM - Re: Two charging devices running in parallel? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 19. 09:36 PM - Re: RV10 Electrical Issue (w/ Format Clean Up) (Rick Beebe) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:04:41 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery Charger From: "dj_theis" Ive had good luck with Schumacher . A little more expensive than what can be bought at HF but Ive had good performance for planes boats and autos. https://www.amazon.com/Battery-Chargers-Schumacher/s?keywords=Battery+Chargers&rh=n%3A15707061%2Cp_89%3ASchumacher&c=ts&ts_id=15707061 The brand, battery tender comes to mind and I might actually have a small one of those around that seems to behave well. I look for a switch on the charger to allow for selection-between AGM and wet lead acid. I think Bob ran some tests on lessor brands with good results And he has a great explanation in his book on chargers that hes expanded on in this forum, if you do a search. Dan Theis. -------- Scratch building Sonex #1362 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=500104#500104 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:43:00 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery Charger At 01:37 AM 1/10/2021, you wrote: > >Old battery charger stopped working. What is the current >recommendation for a charger and battery minder? How big a charger? My local Walmart stocks a range of Schumacher chargers as well as the now legendary Battery Tender Jr. Bob . . . Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane out of that stuff?" ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:03:13 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RV10 Electrical Issue (w/ Format Clean Up) At 06:54 AM 1/9/2021, you wrote: >Hey guys I am way in over my head on this forum >but a nice man from BandC suggested I >try. Attached is the electrical diagram of my >recently purchased RV10. It was completed in >2009 and the avionics was switched to a Garmin >900x a year later. My issue is it safe and >operationally sound. It is an X design, if that is familiar. That's a REALLY busy electrical system . . . >Apparently the builder added a bus tie in order >to bypass a diode bridge rectifier type because >the draw to recharge the Aux Battery, 2 wheel >chair batteries 7Ah 12v wired in series reduced >the essential bus voltage to 12.6v. This bus tie >when on,boosts both busses back to 13.6v. Is this how it was meant to be run? The thought processes behind this architecture cannot be know to us unless it's documented somewhere. The system depicted has features that are >Additionally with both alternators on, the >displayed alternator amperage seems to be all >over the scale; sometimes 45-50 amps when the >airplane has most accessories off. Feeding both >alternators into a single =9Cbus bar=9D seems to cause issues and is that safe? Why run both at the same time? >Therefore it's been recommended that I swap out >the Stby Alt for a 60A PP alternator and just >use it as the primary power source. My >preference would be going to a Z plan where each >alternator powers its own bus but I've been >advised against that. The good news is my A&P >figured out the shunt had not been changed per >Garmin install instructions, a >100A 50 milivolts currently on order. Aside from the things you've described here has this system been flying 'successfully' since 2009? Unless the seller offered the equivalent of a pilots operating handbook for the system, you're kinda stuck with second guessing the builder's original design goals. The builder spent a lot of time providing a good drawing of the wiring which is good. But the arrangement makes it difficult to sort out exactly how this system is supposed to function. Wiring for bridge rectifier is curious . . . it shows all four terminals tied together which negates its function as a diode array. Changing this system to conform to a Z-figure would be a BIG task. What are your plans/expectations for getting the airplane flyable? Bob . . . Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane out of that stuff?" ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:50:37 AM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RV10 Electrical Issue (w/ Format Clean Up) On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 8:14 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 06:54 AM 1/9/2021, you wrote: > > Hey guys I am way in over my head on this forum but a nice man from BandC > suggested I try. Attached is the electrical diagram of my recently > purchased RV10. It was completed in 2009 and the avionics was switched to a > Garmin 900x a year later. My issue is it safe and operationally sound. I t > is an X design, if that is familiar. > > snipped > > Additionally with both alternators on, the displayed alternator amperage > seems to be all over the scale; sometimes 45-50 amps when the airplane ha s > most accessories off. Feeding both alternators into a single =C3=A2=82 =AC=C5=93bus bar=C3=A2=82=AC > seems to cause issues and is that safe? > > > snipped > > > Bob . . . > > I couldn't see the diagram, but the 'all over the place' alternator amperage suggests issues with the shunt's wiring. My (purchased) RV6 had inline fuse holders for glass fuses to 'protect' the sense lines (protect in quotes because the fuses were somewhere near the middle of the wire runs). The flaky contact between the cheezy fuse holders and the fuses caused amperage readings to be... 'all over the place'. Just one place to look, to isolate your random current readings. Charlie ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:32:10 AM PST US From: Jeff Luckey Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RV10 Electrical Issue (w/ Format Clean Up) In the email I received there was no drawing attached.=C2- Could someone re-post the drawing file?=C2- Or send it to me directly. In fact, I only see Bob's & Charlie's replies, not the original post.=C2- That seems weird.... -Jeff On Sunday, January 10, 2021, 06:59:46 AM PST, Charlie England wrote: On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 8:14 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: At 06:54 AM 1/9/2021, you wrote: Hey guys I am way in over myhead on this forum but a nice man from BandC su ggested I try.=C2-Attached is the electrical diagram of my recently purch ased RV10. It wascompleted in 2009 and the avionics was switched to a Garmi n 900x a yearlater.=C2- My issue is it safe and operationally sound. It i s an Xdesign, if that is familiar. snipped Additionally withboth alternators on, the displayed alternator amperage see ms to be allover the scale; sometimes 45-50 amps when the airplane has most accessories off. Feeding both alternators into a single =C3=A2=82=AC=C5 =93bus bar=C3=A2=82=AC seems to cause issues and is that safe? =C2- =C2-snipped =C2- Bob . . . I couldn't see the diagram, but the 'all over the place' alternator amperag e suggests issues with the shunt's wiring. My (purchased) RV6=C2-had inli ne fuse holders for glass fuses to 'protect' the sense lines (protect in qu otes because the fuses were somewhere near the middle of the wire runs). Th e flaky contact between the cheezy fuse holders and the fuses caused ampera ge readings to be... 'all over the place'. Just one place to look, to isola te your random current readings. Charlie ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:00:53 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RV10 Electrical Issue (w/ Format Clean Up) At 12:27 PM 1/10/2021, you wrote: >In the email I received there was no drawing attached. Could >someone re-post the drawing file? Or send it to me directly. > >In fact, I only see Bob's & Charlie's replies, not the original >post. That seems weird.... The drawing has been contrast adjusted and posted at http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/Booth_RV10_Wiring.jpg Bob . . . Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane out of that stuff?" ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:16:05 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RV10 Electrical Issue (w/ Format Clean Up) From: Charlie England Hi Jeff, I never saw the original, either. Since it doesn't show up in the forum format either, I wonder if it went direct to Bob. However.... I get the list via individual emails, and I *frequently* see replies to posts for which I never got the original. Occasionally, I'll find the original in my gmail spam/junk folders, but often the only way I see them is to look at the forum version. I've assumed that the cause is glitches in the multi-format distribution methods required, but I've never pushed the question to Matt (list owner). Charlie On 1/10/2021 12:27 PM, Jeff Luckey wrote: > In the email I received there was no drawing attached. Could someone > re-post the drawing file? Or send it to me directly. > > In fact, I only see Bob's & Charlie's replies, not the original post. > That seems weird.... > > > -Jeff > > On Sunday, January 10, 2021, 06:59:46 AM PST, Charlie England > wrote: > > > On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 8:14 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III > > > wrote: > > At 06:54 AM 1/9/2021, you wrote: >> Hey guys I am way in over my head on this forum but a nice man >> from BandC suggested I try. Attached is the electrical diagram of >> my recently purchased RV10. It was completed in 2009 and the >> avionics was switched to a Garmin 900x a year later. My issue is >> it safe and operationally sound. It is an X design, if that is >> familiar. > snipped >> Additionally with both alternators on, the displayed alternator >> amperage seems to be all over the scale; sometimes 45-50 amps >> when the airplane has most accessories off. Feeding both >> alternators into a single bus bar seems to cause issues and >> is that safe? > > snipped > > > Bob . . . > > I couldn't see the diagram, but the 'all over the place' alternator > amperage suggests issues with the shunt's wiring. My (purchased) RV6 > had inline fuse holders for glass fuses to 'protect' the sense lines > (protect in quotes because the fuses were somewhere near the middle of > the wire runs). The flaky contact between the cheezy fuse holders and > the fuses caused amperage readings to be... 'all over the place'. Just > one place to look, to isolate your random current readings. > > Charlie -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:46:58 PM PST US From: Pete Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery Charger -----Original Message----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Sent: Jan 10, 2021 5:38 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery Charger Battery is a PC 680 in a RV9A. Pete At 01:37 AM 1/10/2021, you wrote: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Old battery charger stopped working. What is the current recommendation for a charger and battery minder? How big a charger? My local Walmart stocks a range of Schumacher chargers as well as the now legendary Battery Tender Jr. Bob . . . Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane out of that stuff?" ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:05:05 PM PST US From: Jeff Luckey Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RV10 Electrical Issue (w/ Format Clean Up) BobN - Thanks for the drawing. Charlie - I interact with the List in exactly the same way & have the same experiences you detailed.=C2- Good to know it's not just me. Does anyone know in what part of the country the original poster is located ? -Jeff On Sunday, January 10, 2021, 11:25:31 AM PST, Charlie England wrote: Hi Jeff, I never saw the original, either. Since it doesn't show up in the forum fo rmat either, I wonder if it went direct to Bob. However.... I get the list via individual emails, and I *frequently* see r eplies to posts for which I never got the original. Occasionally, I'll find the original in my gmail spam/junk folders, but often the only way I see t hem is to look at the forum version. I've assumed that the cause is glitche s in the multi-format distribution methods required, but I've never pushed the question to Matt (list owner). Charlie On 1/10/2021 12:27 PM, Jeff Luckey wrote: In the email I received there was no drawing attached.=C2- Could someone re-post the drawing file?=C2- Or send it to me directly. In fact, I only see Bob's & Charlie's replies, not the original post.=C2 - That seems weird.... -Jeff On Sunday, January 10, 2021, 06:59:46 AM PST, Charlie England wrote: On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 8:14 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: At 06:54 AM 1/9/2021, you wrote: Hey guys I am way in over my head on this forum but a nice man from BandC s uggested I try.=C2- Attached is the electrical diagram of my recently pur chased RV10. It was completed in 2009 and the avionics was switched to a Ga rmin 900x a year later.=C2- My issue is it safe and operationally sound. It is an X design, if that is familiar. snipped Additionally with both alternators on, the displayed alternator amperage se ems to be all over the scale; sometimes 45-50 amps when the airplane has mo st accessories off. Feeding both alternators into a single =C3=A2=82=AC =C5=93bus bar=C3=A2=82=AC seems to cause issues and is that safe? =C2- =C2-snipped =C2- Bob . . . I couldn't see the diagram, but the 'all over the place' alternator ampera ge suggests issues with the shunt's wiring. My (purchased) RV6=C2-had inl ine fuse holders for glass fuses to 'protect' the sense lines (protect in q uotes because the fuses were somewhere near the middle of the wire runs). T he flaky contact between the cheezy fuse holders and the fuses caused amper age readings to be... 'all over the place'. Just one place to look, to isol ate your random current readings. Charlie | | Virus-free. www.avast.com | ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:25:31 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RV10 Electrical Issue (w/ Format Clean Up) Had a little more time to review your drawing. >My issue is it safe and operationally sound. It >is an X design, if that is familiar. Not familiar with that designatoin. >Apparently the builder added a bus tie in order to bypass a diode bridge >rectifier type because the draw to recharge the Aux Battery, 2 wheel chair >batteries 7Ah 12v wired in series . . . . In series? Parallel maybe? >reduced the essential bus voltage to 12.6v. This bus tie when on,boosts >both busses back to 13.6v. Is this how it was meant to be run? The diode WILL drop the voltage by about 0.7 volts which is insignificant when only e-bus accessories are being powered. You don't want to charge a battery through this pathway. >Additionally with both alternators on, the displayed alternator >amperage seems to be all over the scale; sometimes 45-50 amps when >the airplane has most accessories off. Feeding both alternators >into a single =9Cbus bar=9D seems to cause issues and is that safe? TWO alternators don't play well running in tandem unless their regulators are specifically chosen for parallel operation. If you want to run two batteries, then consider rerouting some wiring to achieve Z14 configuration. Replace the diode bridge (which is not wired correctly in the drawing) with a cross-feed contactor. Normal Z14 ops call for both alternators to run all the time independently of each other on separate systems but with an ability to share energy between systems should one alternator fail >Therefore it=99s been recommended that I swap >out the Stby Alt for a 60A PP alternator and >just use it as the primary power source. Don't think that's necessary . . . >My preference would be going to a Z plan where each alternator powers its >own bus but I=99ve been advised against that. Can't imagine why . . . Z14 was published about 20 years ago an is flying on a lot of OBAM aircraft. If you want to keep two batteries, Z-14 is the way to go. Conversely, you could take some weight out of the airplane by dropping to one battery and picking the relevant features of Z101 which is the decades younger, recommended replacement for Z14 Bob . . . Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane out of that stuff?" ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:29:44 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery Charger > >Battery is a PC 680 in a RV9A. Sounds like all your needing is a Battery Tender for battery maintenance. It will recharge your PC680, albeit slowly. But how often do you need to recharge badly depleted battery? Bob . . . Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane out of that stuff?" ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:19:53 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Two charging devices running in parallel? From: "rparigoris" Hi Bob You wrote in a post for RV10: "TWO alternators don't play well running in tandem unless their regulators are specifically chosen for parallel operation." My specific question is about my Rotax 914. I will be using a single Earth-X 680C LiFe battery. It has an internal generator and I am using a B&C AVC1 regulator with set-point at 14.5 volts. In addition on the vacuum pad I have a B&C LR3D with set-point at 14.6 volts. The vacuum pad doesn't spin very fast and at lower RPMs the alternator doesn't put out as much as the internal generator. That said the internal generator best be kept to 12 amps or less continuous amp draw to achieve long life from it. Idea is let the alternator put out it's best and do as much work as it can as it can do so without worry of over taxing it. Then if set-point of 14.6 volts can't be maintained the generator will take over and supplement. I have a shunt to read amp output on both chargers. Would my plan satisfy "regulators specifically chosen for parallel operation." Thx. Ron P. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=500124#500124 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:58:25 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Monarch EE Anti-Plugging Field Accelerating? From: "rparigoris" Hi Group Thanks to those who replied about brushes and enlightenment how a 1941 Monarch EE works. I certainly have a much better grasp on how it works. Anyway today I finished up replacing it's 10 brushes and tending to anything that needed to be done. It's working perfectly! Have owned it since mid 1970s. Here's a pic. from 2013 when it was in need of a good going over: https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ah1S270Nwg9VtFmAe2PksSsa9K14 In 2017 gave it the tending to it needed. Took several months. Here's a pic. from today: https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ah1S270Nwg9V4VH1Kt1w_kil96gs Managed to fill it with chips today and retrieve resultant aeroplane parts. Ron P. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=500125#500125 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:11:37 PM PST US From: WILLIAM BOOTH Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RV10 Electrical Issue (w/ Format Clean Up) =EF=BBThanks for your time, interest and help. My formatting is from an i Pad so.... I am located in Fredericksburg VA. The builder is getting up there in age and it was built 12 years ago but he t old me he chose this design so if there was an alternator failure it would t ransfer automatically. He added that he always thought he should remove the one way diode. The diode diagram is attached. I did remove the diode by di sconnecting it but the Stby Alternator regulator and fuse blew. I can add after 6 months of frustration I have learned a lot about my electr ical system. The shunt off of the alternators is incorrect and will be repl aced this week. The battery shunt appears to be off by a factor of 2.5. The Garmin draw with only the battery on and both PFD=99s tested at 7amps draw while the Garmin displayed 17 amps draw. This implies to me that it n eeds a 250a and 50mV shunt. I plan on contacting Garmin this week to determ ine their requirements. Regarding the two batteries; number 1 is an Odyssey 925 and number two are t he wheel chair batteries wired maybe in parallel; picture included. I am no t sure these qualify for an alternator all their own? I=99m not sure w hich way to turn. With regards to the Z101 option or the Z14 for that matter I am for what eve r works best for my current situation. I need to be able to communicate it t o my A and P. William Booth > On Jan 10, 2021, at 4:26 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > =EF=BB Had a little more time to review your drawing. > >> My issue is it safe and operationally sound. It is an X design, if that i s familiar. > > Not familiar with that designatoin. > >> Apparently the builder added a bus tie in order to bypass a diode bridge >> rectifier type because the draw to recharge the Aux Battery, 2 wheel chai r >> batteries 7Ah 12v wired in series . . . . > > In series? Parallel maybe? > >> reduced the essential bus voltage to 12.6v. This bus tie when on,boosts >> both busses back to 13.6v. Is this how it was meant to be run? > > The diode WILL drop the voltage by about 0.7 volts > which is insignificant when only e-bus accessories > are being powered. You don't want to charge a battery > through this pathway. > >> Additionally with both alternators on, the displayed alternator >> amperage seems to be all over the scale; sometimes 45-50 amps when >> the airplane has most accessories off. Feeding both alternators >> into a single =9Cbus bar=9D seems to cause issues and is that safe? > > TWO alternators don't play well running > in tandem unless their regulators are > specifically chosen for parallel operation. > > If you want to run two batteries, then consider > rerouting some wiring to achieve Z14 configuration. > Replace the diode bridge (which is not wired > correctly in the drawing) with a cross-feed > contactor. > > Normal Z14 ops call for both alternators > to run all the time independently of each > other on separate systems but with an > ability to share energy between systems > should one alternator fail > > > >> Therefore it=99s been recommended that I swap out the Stby Alt for a 60A PP alternator and just use it as the primary power source. > > Don't think that's necessary . . . > >> My preference would be going to a Z plan where each alternator powers its >> own bus but I=99ve been advised against that. > > Can't imagine why . . . Z14 was published about 20 years > ago an is flying on a lot of OBAM aircraft. If you > want to keep two batteries, Z-14 is the way to go. > Conversely, you could take some weight out of the > airplane by dropping to one battery and picking > the relevant features of Z101 which is the > decades younger, recommended replacement for Z14 > > Bob . . . > > Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes > survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane > out of that stuff?" ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:11:14 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RV10 Electrical Issue (w/ Format Clean Up) From: Dick Tasker For what it's worth, I have the individual emails sent to my computer email and I definitely received all four copies of the email with the attached schematic. Obviously something is different between our computers but I have no idea what it might be. I also have a weird issue with emails. Whenever I send an email like this one, the matronics server sends me a bounceback saying I cannot post because I am not a member (which is wrong as I am a member) but the email gets posted anyway. I tried contacting Matt to get it fixed to no avail, but since the email does go through I just ignore it.\ now. Jeff Luckey wrote: > BobN - Thanks for the drawing. > > Charlie - I interact with the List in exactly the same way & have the same experiences you detailed. Good to know it's not just me. > > Does anyone know in what part of the country the original poster is located? > > > -Jeff > > > On Sunday, January 10, 2021, 11:25:31 AM PST, Charlie England wrote: > > > Hi Jeff, > > I never saw the original, either. Since it doesn't show up in the forum format either, I wonder if it went direct to Bob. > > However.... I get the list via individual emails, and I *frequently* see replies to posts for which I never got the original. Occasionally, I'll find the original in my gmail spam/junk folders, but > often the only way I see them is to look at the forum version. I've assumed that the cause is glitches in the multi-format distribution methods required, but I've never pushed the question to Matt > (list owner). > > Charlie > > On 1/10/2021 12:27 PM, Jeff Luckey wrote: > In the email I received there was no drawing attached. Could someone re-post the drawing file? Or send it to me directly. > > In fact, I only see Bob's & Charlie's replies, not the original post. That seems weird.... > > > -Jeff > > On Sunday, January 10, 2021, 06:59:46 AM PST, Charlie England wrote: > > > On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 8:14 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III > wrote: > > At 06:54 AM 1/9/2021, you wrote: >> Hey guys I am way in over my head on this forum but a nice man from BandC suggested I try. Attached is the electrical diagram of my recently purchased RV10. It was completed in 2009 and the >> avionics was switched to a Garmin 900x a year later. My issue is it safe and operationally sound. It is an X design, if that is familiar. > snipped >> Additionally with both alternators on, the displayed alternator amperage seems to be all over the scale; sometimes 45-50 amps when the airplane has most accessories off. Feeding both >> alternators into a single bus bar seems to cause issues and is that safe? > > snipped > > > Bob . . . > > I couldn't see the diagram, but the 'all over the place' alternator amperage suggests issues with the shunt's wiring. My (purchased) RV6 had inline fuse holders for glass fuses to 'protect' the > sense lines (protect in quotes because the fuses were somewhere near the middle of the wire runs). The flaky contact between the cheezy fuse holders and the fuses caused amperage readings to be... > 'all over the place'. Just one place to look, to isolate your random current readings. > > Charlie > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:25:47 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: RV10 Electrical Issue (w/ Format Clean Up) From: "user9253" The email problems can be avoided by reading posts here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewforum.php?f=3 The OP is from Virginia. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=500128#500128 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:00:16 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: RV10 Electrical Issue (w/ Format Clean Up) From: Charlie England We're aware, but some of us just prefer email delivery=2E =81=A3Sent fr om BlueMail =8B On Jan 10, 2021, 9:31 PM, at 9:31 PM, user9253 wrote: " > >The email problems can be avoided by reading pos ts here: >http://forums=2Ematronics=2Ecom/viewforum=2Ephp?f=3 >The OP is from Virginia=2E > >-------- >Joe Gores > > >Read this topic online her e: > >http://forums=2Ematronics=2Ecom/viewtopic=2Ephp?p=500128#500128 > > > > ============= ic-List Email Forum - rowse rchive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, uch much more: eroElectric-List ================== - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - he Web Forums! > WIKI - http://wiki=2Ematronics=2Ecom ==================== - List Contribution Web Site - support! >_ -= --> http://www=2Ematronics=2Ecom/contribution === ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:59:18 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Two charging devices running in parallel? Hi Bob You wrote in a post for RV10: "TWO alternators don't play well running in tandem unless their regulators are specifically chosen for parallel operation." Okay, the legacy definition of 'paralleled alternators/generators' says the two machines are regulated for the same set-point and ideally, they SHARE the system loads between them. Many GA twins were fitted with paralleling systems on their generators. The Beech 18 had some carbon pile regulators . . . the Cessna 310/320 had some electro-mechanical devices; both had paralleling coils on their voltage sense magnetics. To date, I'm aware of NO dual alternator systems in an OBAM aircraft wherein the two alternators are expected to simultaneously deliver energy into a system. The B&C standby systems are fitted with lowered set-point regulators so that they 'auto-switch' when the bus voltage falls below the setpoint due to main alternator failure. Tandem operation was never anticipated. Yeah, they were sorta connected up all the time but they were designed to operate independently of each other. My specific question is about my Rotax 914. I will be using a single Earth-X 680C LiFe battery. It has an internal generator and I am using a B&C AVC1 regulator with set-point at 14.5 volts. In addition on the vacuum pad I have a B&C LR3D with set-point at 14.6 volts. The vacuum pad doesn't spin very fast and at lower RPMs the alternator doesn't put out as much as the internal generator. Have you discussed this will B&C? I wonder if they have any customers with field experience on this configuration. Let's noodle thru this: The LiFePO4 delivers energy at 13.0 and below. So after start up the regulators on both alternators will sense 'voltage low' and command their respective machines to pick up the bus. If rpm is high enough the PM alternator will pick up system loads at 14.5 . . . at higher rpm the pad driven alternator will pick up loads at 14.6 whereupon the PM alternator will 'relax' until such time as system loads exceed output of the pad-driven alternator. The pad driven alternator becomes 'unregulated' and limited in output only by rpm. Voltage sags until the PM alternator picks up what's left over. Whether or not this is a stable condition is subject to tests. In this case the alternators are not sharing system loads. The pad-driven device is running full-field and the PM alternator becomes 'system master' and ostensibly will hold the bus at 14.5. Looks pretty good on paper . . . do you know any one who is flying this? That said the internal generator best be kept to 12 amps or less continuous amp draw to achieve long life from it. Idea is let the alternator put out it's best and do as much work as it can as it can do so without worry of over taxing it. Then if set-point of 14.6 volts can't be maintained the generator will take over and supplement. I have a shunt to read amp output on both chargers. Would my plan satisfy "regulators specifically chosen for parallel operation." Dunno . . . the condition Mr. Booth was citing is classic behavior for a pair of machines expected to operate REGULATED and regulator dynamics causes them to wrestle with each other. The result is often manifested in wildly fluctuating field voltages and outputs. In your case, you never have both alternators fighting for regulation dominance. One of the regulators is always hard-over wherein regulation dynamics are not a factor. Whether or not the regulators are sufficiently stable to setpoints that close together remains to be seen . . . and the spread can always be opened up a bit. An interesting experiment! Bob . . . Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane out of that stuff?" ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:36:00 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RV10 Electrical Issue (w/ Format Clean Up) From: Rick Beebe On 1/10/2021 7:06 PM, WILLIAM BOOTH wrote: > I can add after 6 months of frustration I have learned a lot about my > electrical system. The shunt off of the alternators is incorrect and > will be replaced this week. The battery shunt appears to be off by a > factor of 2.5. The Garmin draw with only the battery on and both PFDs > tested at 7amps draw while the Garmin displayed 17 amps draw. This > implies to me that it needs a 250a and 50mV shunt. I plan on > contacting Garmin this week to determine their requirements. Garmin specs a 100amp 50mV shunt. Certainly if the shunt and efis settings don't match you'll get inaccurate readings. 7 amps sounds about right to me. Also, I saw the previous comment about fuses in the middle of the sense lines. Excess resistance there will also affect the readings. Fuses are a good idea but they should be right at the shunt. I used pico fuses to avoid issues with a fuse holder. --Rick ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.