---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 01/19/21: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:20 AM - tachometer ballast resistor (Rowland Carson) 2. 08:41 AM - Zeftronics Regulator Connection Question (farmrjohn) 3. 09:43 AM - Re: Wiring of the S704 in Z101 (johnbright) 4. 09:57 AM - Re: Power distribution parts (johnbright) 5. 09:59 AM - Re: Wiring of the S704 in Z101 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 12:15 PM - Alternator behavior (David and Elaine Lamphere) 7. 01:47 PM - Re: Alternator behavior (Charlie England) 8. 02:08 PM - Re: Alternator behavior (David and Elaine Lamphere) 9. 03:29 PM - Alternator behavior (David and Elaine Lamphere) 10. 04:03 PM - Re: Alternator behavior (johnbright) 11. 04:26 PM - Re: Alternator behavior (Charlie England) 12. 06:24 PM - Re: Alternator behavior (David and Elaine Lamphere) 13. 07:14 PM - Re: Alternator behavior (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 07:18 PM - Re: Alternator behavior (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 07:20 PM - Re: Re: Power distribution parts (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 16. 07:36 PM - Re: Alternator behavior (Charlie England) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:20:57 AM PST US From: Rowland Carson Subject: AeroElectric-List: tachometer ballast resistor Im wiring my Europa XS with a 912ULS engine. I have fitted the factory-supplied UMA tacho and am also taking the engine tacho output to a MGL E-3 engine instrument and a Smart Avionics CSC-1 prop controller. The UMA manual calls for a 270 resistor across the engine tacho output (if the readings are erratic). The MGL manual calls for 220 (and one is supplied). Does anyone know if using the 220 resistor would make the UMA tacho unhappy? in friendship Rowland | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:41:34 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Zeftronics Regulator Connection Question From: "farmrjohn" I have a Zeftronics R15100 voltage regulator that has the following terminals: I-A-S-F. Only three terminals have wires connected to them, I-A-F. For low or high voltage indication it looks like an Electronics International VA-1 voltmeter is used. Everything seems to be working (system shows 14.1 volts when engine running, alternator on), should I move the I lead to the S terminal? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=500332#500332 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:43:21 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wiring of the S704 in Z101 From: "johnbright" It doesn't matter whether current flows from or to the common terminal of a relay. In Z101 the common terminal has to go to the CD/aux/brownout bus because the bus is powered by the battery thru the NO terminal and by the optional brownout booster thru the NC terminal. -------- John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360 Z-101 single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F. john_s_bright@yahoo.com, Newport News, Va https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YOtPiA3AdUsQEYR4nodBESNAo21rxdnx4pFs7VxXfuI/edit?usp=sharing Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=500333#500333 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:57:57 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Power distribution parts From: "johnbright" I tried to distribute the parts equitably. Paul in Pennsylvania got a 10-fuse block, I got a 24-tab ground block, and Sebastien in Canada got two ground blocks and three fuse blocks. The 4-fuse block is orphaned but warm and dry. -------- John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360 Z-101 single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F. john_s_bright@yahoo.com, Newport News, Va https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YOtPiA3AdUsQEYR4nodBESNAo21rxdnx4pFs7VxXfuI/edit?usp=sharing Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=500334#500334 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:59:46 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wiring of the S704 in Z101 At 02:57 PM 1/18/2021, you wrote: > > >Over the weekend I figured out a detail of the Z101 diagram - how to >wire the S704 relay. See attached. > >In the Z101 detail Bob mirrors the expected flow through a >relay. Normally power comes in the COM and goes out through either >the NC or (when the coil is activated) the NO. Here power is >sitting in the NO ready to flow to the device through the COM. It's >elegant and creative. Or at least I found it so. That's one way to use it. The S704 relay is just a single pole, double throw switch. The only difference is that it is operated REMOTELY by energizing a magnetic motor. There is nothing 'magic' about which way power flows through the operating 'switch' . . . One could have two power inputs NO and NC terminals with power out on COM. You'll find all variations on the theme in the PPS drawing on the website. Bob . . . Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane out of that stuff?" ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:15:18 PM PST US From: David and Elaine Lamphere Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternator behavior I=99m puzzled. I have the alternator setup on the bench as described before. If I have it all connected (gnd, field, output, pos) and turn on the electric motor it does not charge. Stays at battery V (12.4V or so) If I disconnect the battery negative (ground) lead, start up the motor and THEN connect the ground it generates 14.2V and charges the battery. If I shut off the motor and do not disconnect anything and start the motor again - it does not charge! Why? And how on earth am I going to get this to work in the airplane?? ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:47:05 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator behavior From: Charlie England On 1/19/2021 2:10 PM, David and Elaine Lamphere wrote: > Im puzzled. > > I have the alternator setup on the bench as described before. > > > If I have it all connected (gnd, field, output, pos) and turn on the electric motor > it does not charge. Stays at battery V (12.4V or so) > > If I disconnect the battery negative (ground) lead, start up the motor and THEN connect the ground > it generates 14.2V and charges the battery. > > If I shut off the motor and do not disconnect anything and start the motor again - it does not charge! > > Why? > > And how on earth am I going to get this to work in the airplane?? What does it do if you leave the field leads disconnected, start the motor, and then connect the field? BTW, regular photos (.jpg images) will display in most email clients automatically, but .pdf files require a separate download operation to see them. -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:08:48 PM PST US From: David and Elaine Lamphere Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator behavior On Jan 19, 2021, at 4:43 PM, Charlie England wrote: On 1/19/2021 2:10 PM, David and Elaine Lamphere wrote: What does it do if you leave the field leads disconnected, start the motor, and then connect the field? It also starts charging and buss is 14V! Any theories? Virus-free. www.avast.com ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:29:09 PM PST US From: David and Elaine Lamphere Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternator behavior sorry for the cutting error On Jan 19, 2021, at 4:43 PM, Charlie England > wrote: What does it do if you leave the field leads disconnected, start the motor, and then connect the field? ANSWER: It also starts charging and buss is 14V! Any theories? Virus-free. www.avast.com ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:03:19 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator behavior From: "johnbright" My theory is that the wire you call field is actually enable and the car knows how to handle it. My second theory, or concern, is that the alternator will remain functional after power is removed from the enable wire. This would mean that in a fire-in-the-cockpit scenario you would not be able to kill the main bus without stopping the propeller. I would connect B+ and ground, spin the alternator, then connect the "field"... then disconnect the field. -------- John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360 Z-101 single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F. john_s_bright@yahoo.com, Newport News, Va https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YOtPiA3AdUsQEYR4nodBESNAo21rxdnx4pFs7VxXfuI/edit?usp=sharing Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=500340#500340 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:26:07 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator behavior From: Charlie England On 1/19/2021 5:23 PM, David and Elaine Lamphere wrote: > sorry for the cutting error > > On Jan 19, 2021, at 4:43 PM, Charlie England > wrote: > What does it do if you leave the field leads disconnected, start the > motor, and then connect the field? > > ANSWER: > It also starts charging and buss is 14V! > > Any theories? I think the interwebs have caught the Covid. ;-) I sent the following a couple of hours ago, but it isn't showing up in the AEC web view. >> No theories, but you might want to let PP know your results, and ask them. Detail the hookup, and be specific about it failing to come on line if the 'field' (actually a 'turn-on' signal terminal) is held at battery voltage prior to spin-up, and that it does come on line if the control terminal is left floating until after spin-up. My personal solution is to spend about 20% of the money (on an off-the-shelf IR automotive alternator and an overvoltage module/relay). ;-) One theory that just occurred to me (*purely speculative*) is the possibility that since the alt has an automotive 'heritage', the internal control logic could be set up to only allow the alternator to come on line if the control terminal goes 'hi' (on) *after* the alternator is spinning. Some automotive applications keep the control terminal in 'lo' state until after the ignition switch goes from 'start' to 'run'; the alt's control logic may be 'enforcing' that. Have you tried connecting everything, spinning up, then opening/closing the control line? Charlie -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:24:26 PM PST US From: David and Elaine Lamphere Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator behavior Charlie, This alternator just came back from Hartzell/PlanePower. They told me it passed their tests and denied warranty replacement. I informed them of my intent to bench test before putting it back in the plane. The engineer I was communicating with implied they could only help with aircraft installation troubleshooting. I have sent them the same information I have posted and as of yet not heard back from them. I suppose I could get in the habit of starting the engine in the plane with the main power switch set to battery, then turn on the field power - but that=99s something that just doesn=99t seem right to me. Never had to do that with the PP alternator I have had in the Tailwind for the past 12 years. Still, that might be an angle to get some more phase 1 flying in and qualify as in the aircraft (for PP troubleshooting). By the control line do you mean the wire powering the field? I=99ll try that in the morning. Thanks for your help. Dave On Jan 19, 2021, at 7:24 PM, Charlie England wrote: On 1/19/2021 5:23 PM, David and Elaine Lamphere wrote: > sorry for the cutting error > > On Jan 19, 2021, at 4:43 PM, Charlie England > wrote: > What does it do if you leave the field leads disconnected, start the motor, and then connect the field? > > ANSWER: > It also starts charging and buss is 14V! > > Any theories? I think the interwebs have caught the Covid. ;-) I sent the following a couple of hours ago, but it isn't showing up in the AEC web view. >> No theories, but you might want to let PP know your results, and ask them. Detail the hookup, and be specific about it failing to come on line if the 'field' (actually a 'turn-on' signal terminal) is held at battery voltage prior to spin-up, and that it does come on line if the control terminal is left floating until after spin-up. My personal solution is to spend about 20% of the money (on an off-the-shelf IR automotive alternator and an overvoltage module/relay). ;-) One theory that just occurred to me (purely speculative) is the possibility that since the alt has an automotive 'heritage', the internal control logic could be set up to only allow the alternator to come on line if the control terminal goes 'hi' (on) *after* the alternator is spinning. Some automotive applications keep the control terminal in 'lo' state until after the ignition switch goes from 'start' to 'run'; the alt's control logic may be 'enforcing' that. Have you tried connecting everything, spinning up, then opening/closing the control line? Charlie ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:14:58 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator behavior >>If I shut off the motor and do not disconnect anything and start >>the motor again - it does not charge! >> >>Why? >> >>And how on earth am I going to get this to work in the airplane?? >What does it do if you leave the field leads disconnected, start the >motor, and then connect the field? Agreed. It doesn't operate in the airplane like you're testing it on the bench. The internal regulator is fitted with certain 'features' that don't exist in legacy regulators popular in aircraft. The thing MIGHT be designed to keep the alternator dormant if field control and motive power come up at the same time. Modern engine control modules wait until the engine is stable after cranking before adding alternator loads. Bob . . . Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane out of that stuff?" ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:18:52 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator behavior >I suppose I could get in the habit of starting >the engine in the plane with the main power >switch set to battery, then turn on the field >power - but that=99s something that just >doesn=99t seem right to me. Never had to do that >with the PP alternator I have had in the >Tailwind for the past 12 years. Still, that >might be an angle to get some more phase 1 >flying in and qualify as in the aircraft (for PP troubleshooting). > >By the control line do you mean the wire >powering the field? I=99ll try that in the morning. > >Thanks for your help. The PP alternator of a decade ago may have a completely different control philosophy. I've always left the alternator OFF until the engine is running smoothly. Works good. Bob . . . Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane out of that stuff?" ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:20:19 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Power distribution parts At 11:53 AM 1/19/2021, you wrote: > > >I tried to distribute the parts equitably. > >Paul in Pennsylvania got a 10-fuse block, I got a 24-tab ground >block, and Sebastien in Canada got two ground blocks and three fuse >blocks. The 4-fuse block is orphaned but warm and dry. Good show! Bob . . . Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane out of that stuff?" ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:36:25 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator behavior From: Charlie England Isn't the PP alt internally regulated? Assuming it is, then the 'field' terminal isn't actually a field terminal; it's simply a control terminal. A true field terminal is tied directly to one end of the field coil in the alternator; not the case with a PP or other internally regulated alternator. When I said to call PP, I meant to tell them what you're now seeing. Install it in the plane (to satisfy PP), crank with the alt switch off, turn the switch on, and see if it starts charging. Assuming it does, explain the process you went through to PP & ask them if the behavior is 'normal'. You may just be experiencing PP's 'failure to communicate' how the alt is supposed to act. If they tell you that it's 'normal', then I guess that unfortunately, you get to decide whether to live with it, or pick a different product. Good luck, Charlie On 1/19/2021 8:20 PM, David and Elaine Lamphere wrote: > Charlie, > > This alternator just came back from Hartzell/PlanePower. *They told me > it passed their tests and denied warranty replacement.* > > I informed them of my intent to bench test before putting it back in > the plane. > The engineer I was communicating with implied they could only help > with aircraft installation troubleshooting. > I have sent them the same information I have posted and as of yet not > heard back from them. > > I suppose I could get in the habit of starting the engine in the plane > with the main power switch set to battery, then turn on the field > power - but thats something that just doesnt seem right to me. Never > had to do that with the PP alternator I have had in the Tailwind for > the past 12 years. Still, that might be an angle to get some more > phase 1 flying in and qualify as in the aircraft (for PP troubleshooting). > By the control line do you mean the wire powering the field? Ill try > that in the morning. > > Thanks for your help. > > Dave > > On Jan 19, 2021, at 7:24 PM, Charlie England > wrote: > > On 1/19/2021 5:23 PM, David and Elaine Lamphere wrote: >> sorry for the cutting error >> >> On Jan 19, 2021, at 4:43 PM, Charlie England > > wrote: >> What does it do if you leave the field leads disconnected, start the >> motor, and then connect the field? >> >> ANSWER: >> It also starts charging and buss is 14V! >> >> Any theories? > I think the interwebs have caught the Covid. ;-) > I sent the following a couple of hours ago, but it isn't showing up in > the AEC web view. > >> > > No theories, but you might want to let PP know your results, and ask > them. Detail the hookup, and be specific about it failing to come on > line if the 'field' (actually a 'turn-on' signal terminal) is held at > battery voltage prior to spin-up, and that it does come on line if the > control terminal is left floating until after spin-up. > > My personal solution is to spend about 20% of the money (on an > off-the-shelf IR automotive alternator and an overvoltage > module/relay). ;-) > > One theory that just occurred to me (*purely speculative*) is the > possibility that since the alt has an automotive 'heritage', the > internal control logic could be set up to only allow the alternator to > come on line if the control terminal goes 'hi' (on) *after* the > alternator is spinning. Some automotive applications keep the control > terminal in 'lo' state until after the ignition switch goes from > 'start' to 'run'; the alt's control logic may be 'enforcing' that. > > Have you tried connecting everything, spinning up, then > opening/closing the control line? > > Charlie > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.