Today's Message Index:
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1. 01:05 AM - Re: Alternator behavior (David and Elaine Lamphere)
2. 02:50 AM - Re: Alternator behavior (David and Elaine Lamphere)
3. 06:40 PM - Z101B Aux Alternator and Overvoltage protection (Patrick Nelson)
4. 07:34 PM - Re: Z101B Aux Alternator and Overvoltage protection (Charlie England)
5. 07:40 PM - Re: Z101B Aux Alternator and Overvoltage protection (johnbright)
6. 09:45 PM - Re: Z101B Aux Alternator and Overvoltage protection (Patrick Nelson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator behavior |
Now that is interesting! I wonder if anyone else with new PP alternators
has to do the same thing?
Anyway, thank you for the information!
Dave
On Jan 19, 2021, at 10:14 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
<nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> I suppose I could get in the habit of starting the engine in the plane
with the main power switch set to battery, then turn on the field power
- but that=99s something that just doesn=99t seem right to
me. Never had to do that with the PP alternator I have had in the
Tailwind for the past 12 years. Still, that might be an angle to get
some more phase 1 flying in and qualify as in the aircraft (for PP
troubleshooting).
>
> By the control line do you mean the wire powering the field? I=99l
l try that in the morning.
>
> Thanks for your help.
The PP alternator of a decade ago
may have a completely different control
philosophy. I've always left the alternator
OFF until the engine is running smoothly.
Works good.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator behavior |
Charlie,
I ran the test that you suggested (all connections, start motor,
disconnect and reconnect field) this morning.
Sure enough, it started charging after the reconnection.
Having the driveway graveled this morning. When I can get to the airport
next, I=99ll reinstall the alternator and go from there.
Thanks again.
Dave
On Jan 19, 2021, at 10:34 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
wrote:
Isn't the PP alt internally regulated? Assuming it is, then the 'field'
terminal isn't actually a field terminal; it's simply a control
terminal. A true field terminal is tied directly to one end of the field
coil in the alternator; not the case with a PP or other internally
regulated alternator.
When I said to call PP, I meant to tell them what you're now seeing.
Install it in the plane (to satisfy PP), crank with the alt switch off,
turn the switch on, and see if it starts charging. Assuming it does,
explain the process you went through to PP & ask them if the behavior is
'normal'. You may just be experiencing PP's 'failure to communicate' how
the alt is supposed to act.
If they tell you that it's 'normal', then I guess that unfortunately,
you get to decide whether to live with it, or pick a different product.
Good luck,
Charlie
On 1/19/2021 8:20 PM, David and Elaine Lamphere wrote:
> Charlie,
>
> This alternator just came back from Hartzell/PlanePower. They told me
it passed their tests and denied warranty replacement.
>
> I informed them of my intent to bench test before putting it back in
the plane.
> The engineer I was communicating with implied they could only help
with aircraft installation troubleshooting.
> I have sent them the same information I have posted and as of yet not
heard back from them.
>
> I suppose I could get in the habit of starting the engine in the plane
with the main power switch set to battery, then turn on the field power
- but that=99s something that just doesn=99t seem right to
me. Never had to do that with the PP alternator I have had in the
Tailwind for the past 12 years. Still, that might be an angle to get
some more phase 1 flying in and qualify as in the aircraft (for PP
troubleshooting).
>
> By the control line do you mean the wire powering the field? I=99l
l try that in the morning.
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
> Dave
>
> On Jan 19, 2021, at 7:24 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com
<mailto:ceengland7@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> On 1/19/2021 5:23 PM, David and Elaine Lamphere wrote:
>> sorry for the cutting error
>>
>> On Jan 19, 2021, at 4:43 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com
<mailto:ceengland7@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> What does it do if you leave the field leads disconnected, start the
motor, and then connect the field?
>>
>> ANSWER:
>> It also starts charging and buss is 14V!
>>
>> Any theories?
> I think the interwebs have caught the Covid. ;-)
> I sent the following a couple of hours ago, but it isn't showing up in
the AEC web view.
> >>
>
> No theories, but you might want to let PP know your results, and ask
them. Detail the hookup, and be specific about it failing to come on
line if the 'field' (actually a 'turn-on' signal terminal) is held at
battery voltage prior to spin-up, and that it does come on line if the
control terminal is left floating until after spin-up.
>
> My personal solution is to spend about 20% of the money (on an
off-the-shelf IR automotive alternator and an overvoltage module/relay).
;-)
>
> One theory that just occurred to me (purely speculative) is the
possibility that since the alt has an automotive 'heritage', the
internal control logic could be set up to only allow the alternator to
come on line if the control terminal goes 'hi' (on) *after* the
alternator is spinning. Some automotive applications keep the control
terminal in 'lo' state until after the ignition switch goes from 'start'
to 'run'; the alt's control logic may be 'enforcing' that.
>
> Have you tried connecting everything, spinning up, then
opening/closing the control line?
>
> Charlie
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Z101B Aux Alternator and Overvoltage protection |
For those with Z101B, what is your procedure for using the aux alternator? My
initial thought was to turn on the aux alternator with the main alternator and
use a lower voltage setpoint for the aux regulator. This allows the aux alternator
to take over without intervention if the main alternator fails.
This causes a different problem, however. The main regulator could fail resulting
in an overvoltage condition. The crowbar overvoltage protection circuits
would blow the aux alt fuse and trip the main field circuit breaker. Z101B shows
the aux alt fuse forward of the firewall so it can't be replaced in flight.
Essentially, an overvoltage event on the main regulator will take out both
alternators.
The solutions I can think of are:
* Enable the aux alternator only in case of main alternator failure.
* Move the aux field breaker/fuse to the main bus so it can be in the cabin, but
this removes some fault tolerance of the design.
* Come up with an arrangement for the aux regulator that allows a slightly longer
period before the overvoltage protection activates. This seems like a fragile
solution though.
Note: My aux alternator is a BC410 with an LR3C regulator.
Interested in hearing people's procedures for the aux alt switch and/or if they've
deviated from the Z101B wiring diagram to solve this problem
Thanks!
-Patrick
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=500358#500358
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Z101B Aux Alternator and Overvoltage protection |
On 1/20/2021 8:36 PM, Patrick Nelson wrote:
>
> For those with Z101B, what is your procedure for using the aux alternator? My
initial thought was to turn on the aux alternator with the main alternator and
use a lower voltage setpoint for the aux regulator. This allows the aux alternator
to take over without intervention if the main alternator fails.
>
> This causes a different problem, however. The main regulator could fail resulting
in an overvoltage condition. The crowbar overvoltage protection circuits
would blow the aux alt fuse and trip the main field circuit breaker. Z101B
shows the aux alt fuse forward of the firewall so it can't be replaced in flight.
Essentially, an overvoltage event on the main regulator will take out both
alternators.
>
> The solutions I can think of are:
> * Enable the aux alternator only in case of main alternator failure.
> * Move the aux field breaker/fuse to the main bus so it can be in the cabin,
but this removes some fault tolerance of the design.
> * Come up with an arrangement for the aux regulator that allows a slightly longer
period before the overvoltage protection activates. This seems like a fragile
solution though.
>
> Note: My aux alternator is a BC410 with an LR3C regulator.
>
> Interested in hearing people's procedures for the aux alt switch and/or if they've
deviated from the Z101B wiring diagram to solve this problem
> Thanks!
> -Patrick
IIRC, the B&C regulator that's made for the backup alt is supposed to
ignore an OV event caused by the main alt, and not react to OV except
from its own alt.
Protection for the B-lead would be the same whether the fuse (or
breaker) is on the fat wire tie point, or on a bus. The fuse/CB is
protecting the wire from the battery; not the alternator.
Charlie
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Z101B Aux Alternator and Overvoltage protection |
Here's a Bob quote from 5 Dec, 2019:
"If you're using B&C alternator controllers in Z-12, the ov control systems are
'selective trip' . . . when an ov condition is detected, each ov system looks
to see if 'my alternator' has field voltage on it. If so, then the 'my regulator'
is bad and I trip only 'my alternator'.
If the field voltage is low or zero, the ov condition is generated by failure of
the 'other regulator' it is expected to manage it's own shutdown operation."
--------
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Z-101 single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright@yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YOtPiA3AdUsQEYR4nodBESNAo21rxdnx4pFs7VxXfuI/edit?usp=sharing
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=500360#500360
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Z101B Aux Alternator and Overvoltage protection |
Ah, thanks!
That makes sense. If the voltage is over the set point then the field should have
no voltage. Presumably LR-3 OV protection kicks in if voltage at pin 3 exceeds
16V and there is voltage present on pin 4 (field winding). That's easy
enough to test next time I'm working on wiring.
Thank you for the info.
-Patrick
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=500361#500361
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