Today's Message Index:
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1. 07:17 AM - Re: Re: Small battery choice (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 07:18 AM - Re: Re: Small battery choice (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 07:20 AM - Re: Re: Small battery choice (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 08:01 AM - Re: Re: Small battery choice (Charlie England)
5. 09:20 AM - Re: Small battery choice (user9253)
6. 09:39 AM - Re: Re: Small battery choice (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 09:46 AM - Re: Small battery choice (Charlie England)
8. 09:56 AM - Re: Re: Small battery choice (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 10:23 AM - Re: Re: Small battery choice (Sebastien)
10. 10:52 AM - Re: Re: Small battery choice (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 10:54 AM - Re: Re: Small battery choice (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 06:43 PM - Re: Small battery choice (AdventureD)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Small battery choice |
At 04:59 PM 1/23/2021, you wrote:
><dobrien@microfoundations.com>
>
>A bit more on this -- with the redundancy I have in the Z14 system,
>I am not looking for a high $$ battery. I am happy to change one
>out every year IF the batteries do a good job cranking the
>engine. I have a high compression IO550, and the ability to close
>the cross feed to crank. How can I tell from the data sheets
>whether these batteries either alone or in combination are up to the task?
The data sheets are no help. Too many variables.
Hands-on experience and observation are orders
of the day.
>The Power Sonic datasheet reports a max of 270 amps for 5
>seconds. There seems to be all kinds of different reports online
>about what is required to start an engine. I don't want to get
>batters that aren't up to the task.
They will be fine for a time . . . the question is
how long based on how YOU use them. The varied
'reports' are understandable for there are few
constants. Hence observation/experience data will
be all over the map.
Give them a try and let us know what YOU observe.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
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| Subject: | Re: Small battery choice |
At 06:50 PM 1/23/2021, you wrote:
>
>Compare the weight. Some batteries made in China claim to be 18 or 22 AH.
>But when you look at the weight, they weigh less than a PC680 (15.4 pounds).
>One deceiving trick is to use a larger case than necessary to hold
>the meager contents.
Good point!
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
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| Subject: | Re: Small battery choice |
At 09:23 PM 1/23/2021, you wrote:
>
>Here is another option: Mighty Max ML22-12GEL 12 Volt 22 AH
>Can be ordered from Home Depot or Lowes
>
>--------
>Joe Gores
Check to see if this is a true 'gel' cell
fitted battery. These are generally optimized
for deep cycle service like wheel chairs and
trolling motors and not particularly good
for engine cranking -OR- cold weather
performance.
AGM, SVLA is the way to go.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
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| Subject: | Re: Small battery choice |
On 1/24/2021 9:19 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 09:23 PM 1/23/2021, you wrote:
>>
>> Here is another option: Mighty Max ML22-12GEL 12 Volt 22 AH
>> Can be ordered from Home Depot or Lowes
>>
>> --------
>> Joe Gores
>
> Check to see if this is a true 'gel' cell
> fitted battery. These are generally optimized
> for deep cycle service like wheel chairs and
> trolling motors and not particularly good
> for engine cranking -OR- cold weather
> performance.
>
> AGM, SVLA is the way to go.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
My experience when communicating with the battery vendors is that the
meaning of 'gel' has 'ebbed and flowed' over time and is different with
different vendors. I questioned a vendor (not Mighty Max) about their
two models with the same capacity; one identified as 'gel' and the other
as simple SLA. Their answer was that the 'gel' battery was an SLA
designed for starting duty, and their other SLA was their deep discharge
version. This is obviously opposite of what most of us would expect to hear.
Bottom line: ya gotta ask.
Charlie
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| Subject: | Re: Small battery choice |
The Mighty Max ML22-12GEL documentation does not mention AGM or SVLA.
But printed on the front of the battery in large letters is:
"Deep CYCLE AGM Battery"
The above battery uses M5 bolts whereas the PC680 uses M6 bolts.
The smaller size bolts might mean that the Might Max battery is not designed for
starting.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=500405#500405
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| Subject: | Re: Small battery choice |
>The MM referenced is 0.014, which is still plenty good enough to
>crank a 4 cyl Lyc . . .
Aha! that's almost certain to be a 'gel-cell' battery.
But if the price is right and you reside/fly in moderate
climate conditions, they might serve your purposes
well.
Bill Bainbridge and I ran some cold delivery tests
on new flooded, gel and AGM batteries as part of
the qualification of his STC efforts on AGM batteries.
I did the first proof installation on his batteries
in a C150 waaayyyy back when.
Of the three batteries cold-soaked and load tested,
the flooded and gel batteries were pretty sad
compared to the AGM. I don't recall now how the
flooded and gel compared . . . it kind of sticks
in my mind that the gel was worst which sorta
goes along with the higher spec'd internal
resistance.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Small battery choice |
Kelly,
Not questioning your experience with the generics, but it is worth noting
that your tug is a different application (and only one example). I've never
used an SLA in a true deep discharge environment (other than my computer
UPSs, which are only online long enough for the generator to start). But my
experience with the generics (which, for the most part, are designed for
deep discharge applications) I'm (mis)using as *starting batteries* is that
they do the job well, and last a long time. (Remember, in a starting
application, you only pull 3-5% of the capacity to start the engine, and
then the alternator is doing all the work through the rest of the flight.)
On the other hand, if you search 'Odyssey' on the VAF RV forum for the last
couple of years, you will find multiple accounts of owners who got great
life from their original Odyssey but when they replaced it, the new one had
very short life. I realize that this is 2nd hand info, so take it for
whatever you think it's worth, but the stories are out there.
Charlie
On Sun, Jan 24, 2021 at 8:32 AM Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com> wrote:
> kellym@aviating.com>
>
> Certainly not my experience. In aircraft, in Aridzona the typical
> Concorde or Gill is good for 3-3.5 years. I have an Odyssey in my
> homebuilt...a bigger 925 which has served well for 6 years. My tug uses
> batteries in the size you are talking about. The manufacturer put in
> Duracells. I tried generic and got 4 months. Paid twice as much for the
> Duracells, and they are doing quite well.
>
> On 1/23/2021 3:45 PM, Charlie England wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jan 23, 2021 at 2:20 PM AdventureD <dobrien@microfoundations.com
> > <mailto:dobrien@microfoundations.com>> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi Dan,
> >
> > I've run Power Sonic, and at least 2 or 3 other 'no name' brands in a/c
> > over the past 20+ years (probably everything *except* Odyssey), and I've
> > never been able to detect any 'real world' difference among the brands.
> > I buy the cheapest version I can find at the time, and it 'just works'.
> > FWIW, there's been some internet chatter lately among the RV-x drivers
> > that the current (pardon the pun) crop of Odysseys have had less than
> > stellar lifespans (and they obviously extract a premium from your
> > pocketbook). I've always gotten 4-6 years out of the no-name versions,
> > with the only exception being one that had a pin hole in the case
> > (shipping damage that I missed prior to installation). Even it lasted
> > about a year before I noticed diminished capacity.
> >
> > FWIW, there are some higher AH versions available in almost identical
> > case sizes. The naming convention for most is like the PowerSonic:
> > 12(voltage)18(AH)followed by another zero. If you search for '12200 SLA
> > battery' or '12220 SLA battery' (and read the specs carefully), you can
> > get a 20 AH or 22AH that will fit in the same space, for about the same
> > money. One thing to notice on the 'no names' is that many are intended
> > for deep discharge applications (powered wheelchairs, etc), and will
> > have slightly higher internal resistance than a PC680 'starting
> > battery'. By going to a 20 AH or 22AH version, the internal impedance
> > will be roughly the same as the PC680 (meaning same or better CCA), and
> > the battery's *capacity* (total energy content) will be 10%-15% greater
> > than a PC680 (stuff will run longer after an alternator failure).
> >
> > My experience since late in the last century; YMMV, etc etc.
> >
> > Charlie
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Small battery choice |
>My experience when communicating with the battery vendors is that the meaning
>of 'gel' has 'ebbed and flowed' over time and is different with different
>vendors.
Right. In the early days of SVLA being
offered at OSH, many vendors referred to
their products as "gel". Had the same
experience with folks behind the counters
in store-front battery marts.
The kicker is "AGM" which is absorbed glass
mat . . . no way can AGM and Gel co-exist.
There can be deep-discharge offerings in all three
technologies which usually means more active material
between plates and perhaps some tweaking of
plate chemistry . . .
For the techno-nerds among us, here's an excellent
description of the gel technology as it compares to
the other two lead-acid technologies.
https://tinyurl.com/yxwlh8xm
Also, note the website . . . batteryuniveristy.com
This is the go-to place for the straight skinny
on all things battery.
The article say Sonnenschein was producer of
the first gel cell devices. That's the brand that
B&C was selling at OSH in 1986.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Small battery choice |
> Also, note the website . . . batteryuniveristy.com
> This is the go-to place for the straight skinny
> on all things battery.
Uhh ... personally I don't have anything against spinach but even though
it's not nearly as destructive as the right-wing variety, left-wing click
bait doesn't interest me.
I think you meant batteryuniversity.com Bob.
On Sun, Jan 24, 2021 at 10:01 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> My experience when communicating with the battery vendors is that the
> meaning
> of 'gel' has 'ebbed and flowed' over time and is different with different
> vendors.
>
>
> Right. In the early days of SVLA being
> offered at OSH, many vendors referred to
> their products as "gel". Had the same
> experience with folks behind the counters
> in store-front battery marts.
>
> The kicker is "AGM" which is absorbed glass
> mat . . . no way can AGM and Gel co-exist.
>
> There can be deep-discharge offerings in all three
> technologies which usually means more active material
> between plates and perhaps some tweaking of
> plate chemistry . . .
>
> For the techno-nerds among us, here's an excellent
> description of the gel technology as it compares to
> the other two lead-acid technologies.
>
> https://tinyurl.com/yxwlh8xm
>
> Also, note the website . . . batteryuniveristy.com
> This is the go-to place for the straight skinny
> on all things battery.
>
> The article say Sonnenschein was producer of
> the first gel cell devices. That's the brand that
> B&C was selling at OSH in 1986.
>
> Bob . . .
>
> Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
> survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
> out of that stuff?"
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Small battery choice |
At 11:19 AM 1/24/2021, you wrote:
>
>The Mighty Max ML22-12GEL documentation does not mention AGM or SVLA.
>But printed on the front of the battery in large letters is:
>"Deep CYCLE AGM Battery"
>The above battery uses M5 bolts whereas the PC680 uses M6 bolts.
>The smaller size bolts might mean that the Might Max battery is not
>designed for starting.
https://tinyurl.com/y35venox
This claims to be thixotropic electrolyte (gel)
-AND- macromolecule polymer separators (glass mat
analog). But of course whether the
electrolyte is liquid or gel -AND- whether free
of barriers to circulation it must still have
some form of separator. Glass-mat or polymer
would seem to fill the bill. But the AGM moniker
is not appropriate because the mats are not
glass.
The cells are vacuum charged with electrolyte . . .
as are all the SVLA devices so it's probably
a given that the electrolyte is still 'absorbed'
within the separators even tho it's gelled.
I'm not sure what advantage is gained by gelling
the electrolyte.
The terminals are solid copper posts so they're
suited to high discharge rates like cranking an engine
but the 14 milliohm internal resistance in a 22AH
battery suggests it might be chemically weak.
The spec sheet says it will support an 11A load for
about one hour . . . same as a PC680 which is rated
at only 16AH.
I see them listed on Amazon for a range of prices
with the cheaper ones featuring pierced-tab terminals
as opposed to tapped-posts.
I would be interesting to get one in to quantify
for performance but right now, I've got too many
things on my plate!
I think I'd steer clear of this puppy
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Small battery choice |
>I think you meant <http://batteryuniversity.com>batteryuniversity.com Bob.
Correct. Thanks!
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Small battery choice |
Here's what I'm doing. I'm buying two Power-sonics. They're so cheap that if
they don't work well, it's water under the bridge. I can use them in my motorcycle!
I'll report back on the results. Hopefully first start will occur in the next
two months. Cant wait.
Thanks again.
Dan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=500413#500413
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