Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:01 PM - A 3 phase AC (Alternating Current) question (donjohnston)
2. 12:33 PM - Re: A 3 phase AC (Alternating Current) question (Charlie England)
3. 01:26 PM - Re: A 3 phase AC (Alternating Current) question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 02:03 PM - Re: A 3 phase AC (Alternating Current) question (donjohnston)
5. 02:09 PM - Re: Re: A 3 phase AC (Alternating Current) question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 02:09 PM - Re: A 3 phase AC (Alternating Current) question (user9253)
7. 02:09 PM - Re: A 3 phase AC (Alternating Current) question (donjohnston)
8. 02:19 PM - Re: Re: A 3 phase AC (Alternating Current) question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 04:09 PM - Re: Re: A 3 phase AC (Alternating Current) question (Charlie England)
10. 04:10 PM - Re: A 3 phase AC (Alternating Current) question (Ernest Christley)
11. 04:25 PM - Re: Re: A 3 phase AC (Alternating Current) question (Ernest Christley)
12. 05:44 PM - DC Wiring Diagrams for SPA Panther LS (Rickifly)
13. 06:42 PM - Re: DC Wiring Diagrams for SPA Panther LS (Matthew S. Whiting)
14. 07:48 PM - Re: DC Wiring Diagrams for SPA Panther LS (Rickifly)
15. 09:24 PM - Re: DC Wiring Diagrams for SPA Panther LS (Jeff Luckey)
16. 09:52 PM - Re: Re: A 3 phase AC (Alternating Current) question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
17. 10:16 PM - Re: DC Wiring Diagrams for SPA Panther LS (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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| Subject: | A 3 phase AC (Alternating Current) question |
Looking for some solutions on a project.
I have a lathe/mill combo. I'm going to be upgrading it by replacing the motors
and controlling them with VFD's. Space is tight and it occurred to me that
if I could use one VFD to control the motors (never at the same time) that would
simplify the installation. It would also save money since I would only need
one VFD. :D
But now the question is how to switch the VFD between the two motors?
My first thought was a 3P2T switch. But I have not been able to find one rated
for 230VAC and 1HP. It was suggested to use a contactor. But then I would need
a low voltage source for the contactor with a switch for that power source
and now it's no longer simplifying things.
Any ideas?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=500688#500688
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| Subject: | Re: A 3 phase AC (Alternating Current) question |
On 2/14/2021 2:00 PM, donjohnston wrote:
>
> Looking for some solutions on a project.
>
> I have a lathe/mill combo. I'm going to be upgrading it by replacing the motors
and controlling them with VFD's. Space is tight and it occurred to me that
if I could use one VFD to control the motors (never at the same time) that would
simplify the installation. It would also save money since I would only need
one VFD. :D
>
> But now the question is how to switch the VFD between the two motors?
>
> My first thought was a 3P2T switch. But I have not been able to find one rated
for 230VAC and 1HP. It was suggested to use a contactor. But then I would
need a low voltage source for the contactor with a switch for that power source
and now it's no longer simplifying things.
>
> Any ideas?
Contactors with 120VAC coils are used in thousands of devices.
1 HP should be easy to find; here's one rated at 30A per contact with a
120V coil:
https://www.galco.com/buy/Deltrol-Controls/21011-84?source=googleshopping
The vendor's spec sheet says '30A @ 30V DC', so it should handle 30A AC
with no problem at all.
I started by searching for '3pdt 30a 110v relay'
Charlie
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| Subject: | Re: A 3 phase AC (Alternating Current) question |
At 02:00 PM 2/14/2021, you wrote:
>
>Looking for some solutions on a project.
>
>I have a lathe/mill combo. I'm going to be upgrading it by
>replacing the motors and controlling them with VFD's. Space is
>tight and it occurred to me that if I could use one VFD to control
>the motors (never at the same time) that would simplify the
>installation. It would also save money since I would only need one VFD. :D
>
>But now the question is how to switch the VFD between the two motors?
>
>My first thought was a 3P2T switch. But I have not been able to
>find one rated for 230VAC and 1HP. It was suggested to use a
>contactor. But then I would need a low voltage source for the
>contactor with a switch for that power source and now it's no longer
>simplifying things.
How often do you switch? Perhaps a simple
drop-cord off each motor with a twist-lock
plug could be used to mate the in-service
motor with its power source.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
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| Subject: | Re: A 3 phase AC (Alternating Current) question |
> How often do you switch? Perhaps a simple
> drop-cord off each motor with a twist-lock
> plug could be used to mate the in-service
> motor with its power source.
Unfortunately, often enough that I'd rather not be swapping cables. That's just
as bad as having to move the belts to change speeds.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=500691#500691
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| Subject: | Re: A 3 phase AC (Alternating Current) question |
At 04:03 PM 2/14/2021, you wrote:
>
>
> > How often do you switch? Perhaps a simple
> > drop-cord off each motor with a twist-lock
> > plug could be used to mate the in-service
> > motor with its power source.
>
>
>Unfortunately, often enough that I'd rather not be swapping
>cables. That's just as bad as having to move the belts to change speeds.
Okay, then use a 2PDT switch or relay to switch
two of the three leads between motors. Leave the
3rd wire always connected between VFD and both
motors.
No current can flow to the 'unpowered' motor unless
at least TWO wires are connected. So leaving the
third wire always connected will have no effect
on system operations.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
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| Subject: | Re: A 3 phase AC (Alternating Current) question |
How about one of these switches:
https://www.mouser.com/Electromechanical/Switches/Toggle-Switches/_/N-5g2jZ1yzvvqxZgjdhub?P=1z0z296Z1z0z20xZ1z0z2qcZ1z0yqrwZ1y8pmr4Z1y8ziurZ1y8ziusZ1z0z63x&Rl=5g2jZer5eZ1z0x8gwZ1z0x87nSGT&Ns=Current%20Rating|0
I assume that your VFD has an on-off switch controlling input power.
Turn the input power off before switching the output power from one motor to the
other.
Then the switch will not even know that an inductive load is connected.
If you operate a switch with no load on it, then it will handle a lot more current
without damage. Even if a switch carries more current than its rating, it will
not self destruct. But its life might be shortened, for example from 100,000 cycles
to 5,000 cycles.
A 3 phase, 240 volt motor will draw less than 4 amps according to this table:
https://twcontrols.com/lessons/motors-horsepower-and-amps-of-230vac-and-460vac-3-phase-60hz-electric-motors
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=500693#500693
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| Subject: | Re: A 3 phase AC (Alternating Current) question |
Would I use one leg of the 230v supply to power the coil?
(I haven't used a relay like this before)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=500692#500692
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| Subject: | Re: A 3 phase AC (Alternating Current) question |
At 04:03 PM 2/14/2021, you wrote:
>
>
> > How often do you switch? Perhaps a simple
> > drop-cord off each motor with a twist-lock
> > plug could be used to mate the in-service
> > motor with its power source.
>
>
>Unfortunately, often enough that I'd rather not be swapping
>cables. That's just as bad as having to move the belts to change speeds.
Plan C:
Use two of these puppies https://tinyurl.com/y2dya9lc
to effect your 2PDT switching. Only one contactor
energized at a time.
Then you can switch between motors with an itty-bitty
toggle switch located remotely from the high-voltage-fat-
wires.
You'll also need a 24vac source to power the
contactor coils
https://tinyurl.com/yytcqyuy
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: A 3 phase AC (Alternating Current) question |
On 2/14/2021 4:08 PM, donjohnston wrote:
>
> Would I use one leg of the 230v supply to power the coil?
>
> (I haven't used a relay like this before)
Yes. You do need a neutral, but anything wired to modern 'code' will
have 3 phases, neutral and ground anyway.
The switch is between one leg & the relay coil; the other coil terminal
goes to neutral. Switch on would feed one output; switch off would feed
the other. You'd still need some method of shutting down the whole
system, of course.
Do check on whether you have 'delta' or 'Y' configuration. With 'Y', you
can pick any leg for the coil; with 'delta', you need to pick one of the
120 V legs; the 3rd leg will measure ~180 V to neutral.
Charlie
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| Subject: | Re: A 3 phase AC (Alternating Current) question |
connect the switch to relays?=C2- But, now you're talking six relays, so
more complication.
On Sunday, February 14, 2021, 03:02:43 PM EST, donjohnston <don@velocit
y-xl.com> wrote:
m>
Looking for some solutions on a project.
I have a lathe/mill combo.=C2- I'm going to be upgrading it by replacing
the motors and controlling them with VFD's.=C2- Space is tight and it occ
urred to me that if I could use one VFD to control the motors (never at the
same time) that would simplify the installation.=C2- It would also save
money since I would only need one VFD. :D
But now the question is how to switch the VFD between the two motors?
My first thought was a 3P2T switch.=C2- But I have not been able to find
one rated for 230VAC and 1HP.=C2- It was suggested to use a contactor.=C2
- But then I would need a low voltage source for the contactor with a swi
tch for that power source and now it's no longer simplifying things.
Any ideas?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=500688#500688
-
S -
WIKI -
-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: A 3 phase AC (Alternating Current) question |
Plan D:=C2- If you want to keep it really simple.=C2- I just switched
my mill to use an old treadmill motor.=C2- It required some machining to
make thing fit up, but two treadmill motors could use the same controller w
ith a DPDT switch.=C2- Another DPDT before that one could also give you r
everse (but, you'll want to pin the flywheel if you do that).=C2- I've go
t a video up showing what I did.
https://rumble.com/vdm28n-powering-a-rong-fu-mill-with-a-treadmill-motor.ht
ml?mref=fui8j&mc=c5hbl
On Sunday, February 14, 2021, 05:20:29 PM EST, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
<nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
At 04:03 PM 2/14/2021, you wrote:
--> AeroElectric-List messageposted by: "donjohnston" <don@velocity-xl.com>
> How often do you switch? Perhaps a simple
> drop-cord off each motor with a twist-lock
> plug could be used to mate the in-service
> motor with its power source.
Unfortunately, often enough that I'd rather not be swapping cables.=C2-Th
at's just as bad as having to move the belts to changespeeds.
=C2-Plan C:
=C2-Use two of these puppieshttps://tinyurl.com/y2dya9lc
=C2-to effect your 2PDT switching. Only one contactor
=C2-energized at a time.
=C2-Then you can switch between motors with an itty-bitty
=C2-toggle switch located remotely from the high-voltage-fat-
=C2-wires.
=C2- You'll also need a 24vac source to power the
=C2- contactor coils
=C2-https://tinyurl.com/yytcqyuy
=C2- Bob . . .
=C2- Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If blackboxes
=C2- survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
=C2- out of that stuff?"
Message 12
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| Subject: | DC Wiring Diagrams for SPA Panther LS |
Hello everyone,
I created DC wiring diagrams for my Panther LS in Solidworks.
EAA offers this 2D/3D cad program free for members. It is very easy to use
and fairly intuitive.
I based my electrical design on the Aeroelectric drawing files and B&C
electric products. I don't mind sending these drawings out to use as a
starting point in your own electrical designs. DM me for your preferred
drawing format. .pdfs, .slddrw or .dwg formats.
Notes:
Based on the Aeroelectric Connection Handbook and drawing Z09A.
The ignition and fuel systems are for a Corvair with Dual Ignition.
The voltage Regulator is the new B&C Electric AVC-1. It features three
functions in one and is Aircraft purpose built v the JohnDeere or Ford
types of VR's.
Scheme uses GRT Avionics as primary EFIS and MGL Avionics as a backup.
Basic Day/Night VFR scheme. The lighting is FLYLEDS.
The drawings are my draft design. I have not wired my airplane yet. They
are not 100% the final scheme.
Here are my concerns:
1. I chose to utilize relays to operate many of the devices that are on
toggle switches (as long as the relay didn't draw more current than the
actual devices). I can operate the devices by toggle switch without the
intermediate relays, but wanted to see what everyone thought about how the
S704-1 Relay is used in my schemes.
2. Inputs to the EIS device where the 4.8V excitation outputs are used to
drive the sensors (oil, temp. pressure) and the way they are wired
electrically for each circuit. Specifically how the Resistors are in series
and parallel.
3. Use of flyback diodes on the relay coils and contactors, and the
unidirectional diodes on the LED lighting circuits. Are they wired in the
correct direction (anode and cathode)?
4. Headset mic and headphone jacks. Curious if I have these wired
correctly.
Thanks and many kind regards,
Rick Gamble
SPA Panther LS - under construction
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: DC Wiring Diagrams for SPA Panther LS |
Did you use the SolidWorks Electrical package or just the base mechanical pa
ckage? I tried to install it a year or so ago and was able to install the b
ase package just fine, but I could not get the electrical package to install
.
Sent from my iPad
> On Feb 14, 2021, at 8:53 PM, Rickifly <gambler7425@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> =EF=BB
> Hello everyone,
>
> I created DC wiring diagrams for my Panther LS in Solidworks.
> EAA offers this 2D/3D cad program free for members. It is very easy to use
and fairly intuitive.
>
> I based my electrical design on the Aeroelectric drawing files and B&C ele
ctric products. I don't mind sending these drawings out to use as a starting
point in your own electrical designs. DM me for your preferred drawing form
at. .pdfs, .slddrw or .dwg formats.
>
> Notes:
> Based on the Aeroelectric Connection Handbook and drawing Z09A.
> The ignition and fuel systems are for a Corvair with Dual Ignition.
> The voltage Regulator is the new B&C Electric AVC-1. It features three fun
ctions in one and is Aircraft purpose built v the JohnDeere or Ford types of
VR's.
> Scheme uses GRT Avionics as primary EFIS and MGL Avionics as a backup.
> Basic Day/Night VFR scheme. The lighting is FLYLEDS.
> The drawings are my draft design. I have not wired my airplane yet. They a
re not 100% the final scheme.
>
> Here are my concerns:
> 1. I chose to utilize relays to operate many of the devices that are on to
ggle switches (as long as the relay didn't draw more current than the actual
devices). I can operate the devices by toggle switch without the intermedia
te relays, but wanted to see what everyone thought about how the S704-1 Rela
y is used in my schemes.
> 2. Inputs to the EIS device where the 4.8V excitation outputs are used to d
rive the sensors (oil, temp. pressure) and the way they are wired electrical
ly for each circuit. Specifically how the Resistors are in series and parall
el.
> 3. Use of flyback diodes on the relay coils and contactors, and the unidir
ectional diodes on the LED lighting circuits. Are they wired in the correct
direction (anode and cathode)?
> 4. Headset mic and headphone jacks. Curious if I have these wired correctl
y.
>
> Thanks and many kind regards,
> Rick Gamble
> SPA Panther LS - under construction
>
>
>
>
> <N665RG WIRING DIAGRAMSr4.pdf>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: DC Wiring Diagrams for SPA Panther LS |
I am using the basic student edition of Solidworks. I may invest in the
full version if I keep modeling in 3D. It is very easy to learn and now I
want a new graphics card and more processors, for those realistic looking
models. I completed my first parts in 3D for the airplane: the Panel and
the GRT Sport EFIS. And was able to send the Avionics Panel with cutouts
modeled part drawing to EMachineShop for a quote. They accept Solidworks
modeled parts without converting them to a step file or machine file.
The electrical package would be great to have as an add-in. The automated
features are very cool. For this little airplane I prob could finish point
to points in short order...
The Solidworks 2021 version seems better than previous years BTW.
Rick
On Sun, Feb 14, 2021 at 8:48 PM Matthew S. Whiting <m.whiting@frontier.com>
wrote:
> Did you use the SolidWorks Electrical package or just the base mechanical
> package? I tried to install it a year or so ago and was able to install
> the base package just fine, but I could not get the electrical package to
> install.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Feb 14, 2021, at 8:53 PM, Rickifly <gambler7425@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> =EF=BB
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> I created DC wiring diagrams for my Panther LS in Solidworks.
> EAA offers this 2D/3D cad program free for members. It is very easy to us
e
> and fairly intuitive.
>
> I based my electrical design on the Aeroelectric drawing files and B&C
> electric products. I don't mind sending these drawings out to use as a
> starting point in your own electrical designs. DM me for your preferred
> drawing format. .pdfs, .slddrw or .dwg formats.
>
> Notes:
> Based on the Aeroelectric Connection Handbook and drawing Z09A.
> The ignition and fuel systems are for a Corvair with Dual Ignition.
> The voltage Regulator is the new B&C Electric AVC-1. It features three
> functions in one and is Aircraft purpose built v the JohnDeere or Ford
> types of VR's.
> Scheme uses GRT Avionics as primary EFIS and MGL Avionics as a backup.
> Basic Day/Night VFR scheme. The lighting is FLYLEDS.
> The drawings are my draft design. I have not wired my airplane yet. They
> are not 100% the final scheme.
>
> Here are my concerns:
> 1. I chose to utilize relays to operate many of the devices that are on
> toggle switches (as long as the relay didn't draw more current than the
> actual devices). I can operate the devices by toggle switch without the
> intermediate relays, but wanted to see what everyone thought about how th
e
> S704-1 Relay is used in my schemes.
> 2. Inputs to the EIS device where the 4.8V excitation outputs are used to
> drive the sensors (oil, temp. pressure) and the way they are wired
> electrically for each circuit. Specifically how the Resistors are in seri
es
> and parallel.
> 3. Use of flyback diodes on the relay coils and contactors, and the
> unidirectional diodes on the LED lighting circuits. Are they wired in th
e
> correct direction (anode and cathode)?
> 4. Headset mic and headphone jacks. Curious if I have these wired
> correctly.
>
> Thanks and many kind regards,
> Rick Gamble
> SPA Panther LS - under construction
>
>
> <N665RG WIRING DIAGRAMSr4.pdf>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: DC Wiring Diagrams for SPA Panther LS |
Hey Rick,
Nice drawings!
Regarding Relays:
Relays can be used for all sorts of things.=C2- Two of the most common us
es are:1. To use a small current to control a big current2. To implement sp
ecial switching logic (like your trim control)
It looks like several of the things you are controlling with relays are pre
tty low current (less than 10 amp) so putting a relay in the circuit is sup
erfluous. Those relays just add complexity, parts count, number of terminat
ions, weight, etc without adding any real value.=C2- You'd be better-off
using switches directly for the fuel pumps & auto pilot and probably the av
ionics relay (also consider that a single avionics switch is a possible sin
gle point of failure).=C2-=C2-
That's what I saw with a quick glance at your drawings.=C2- I did not stu
dy them.
-Jeff
On Sunday, February 14, 2021, 07:57:32 PM PST, Rickifly <gambler7425@gm
ail.com> wrote:
I am using the basic student edition of Solidworks. I may invest in the fu
ll version if I keep modeling in 3D. It is very easy to learn and now I wan
t a new graphics card and more processors, for those realistic looking mode
ls. I completed my first parts in 3D for the airplane: the Panel and the GR
T Sport EFIS.=C2- And was able to send the Avionics Panel with cutouts mo
deled part drawing to EMachineShop for a quote.=C2- They accept Solidwork
s modeled parts without converting them to a step file or machine file. =C2
-The electrical package would be great to have as an add-in.=C2- The au
tomated features are very cool.=C2- For this little airplane I prob could
finish point to points in short order...The Solidworks 2021 version seems
better than previous years BTW.Rick=C2-
On Sun, Feb 14, 2021 at 8:48 PM Matthew S. Whiting <m.whiting@frontier.com>
wrote:
Did you use the SolidWorks Electrical package or just the base mechanical p
ackage?=C2- I tried to install it a year or so ago and was able to instal
l the base package just fine, but I could not get the electrical package to
install.
Sent from my iPad
On Feb 14, 2021, at 8:53 PM, Rickifly <gambler7425@gmail.com> wrote:
=EF=BB
Hello everyone,=C2-
I created DC wiringdiagrams for my Panther LS in Solidworks.=C2-EAA offer
s this 2D/3D cad programfree for members. It is very easy to use and fairly
intuitive.
I based my electrical design on the Aeroelectricdrawing files and B&C elect
ric products. I don't mind sending these drawings out to use as a starting
point in yourown electrical designs. DM me for your preferred drawing forma
t. .pdfs, .slddrwor .dwg formats.
Notes:
Based on the Aeroelectric Connection Handbook anddrawing Z09A.=C2-
The ignition and fuel systems are for a Corvairwith Dual Ignition.
The voltage Regulator is the new B&C ElectricAVC-1. It features three funct
ions in one and is Aircraft purpose built v theJohnDeere or Ford types of V
R's.
Scheme uses GRT Avionics as primary EFIS and MGLAvionics as a backup.
Basic Day/Night VFR scheme. The lighting isFLYLEDS.
The drawings are my draft design. I have not wiredmy airplane yet. They are
not 100% the final scheme.
Here are=C2-my concerns:1. I chose to utilize relays to operate many of t
hedevices that are on toggle switches (as long as the relay didn't=C2-dra
w more current than the actual=C2-devices). I can operate the devices by
toggleswitch without the intermediate relays, but wanted to see what everyo
ne thought about how the S704-1 Relay is used in my schemes.=C2-
2. Inputs to the EIS device where the 4.8V excitation=C2-outputs are used
to drive the sensors (oil, temp. pressure) and the way they are wired elec
trically for each circuit. Specifically how the Resistors are in series and
parallel.=C2-=C2-3. Use of flyback diodes on the relay coils and conta
ctors, and the unidirectional diodes on the LED lighting circuits.=C2- Ar
e they wired in the correct direction (anode and cathode)?4. Headset mic an
d headphone jacks. Curious if I have these wired correctly.=C2-
Thanks and many kind regards,Rick GambleSPA Panther LS - under construction
<N665RG WIRING DIAGRAMSr4.pdf>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: A 3 phase AC (Alternating Current) question |
At 04:08 PM 2/14/2021, you wrote:
>
>Would I use one leg of the 230v supply to power the coil?
>
>(I haven't used a relay like this before)
>
>
See attached . . .
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: DC Wiring Diagrams for SPA Panther LS |
Here are my concerns:
1. I chose to utilize relays to operate many of the devices that are
on toggle switches (as long as the relay didn't draw more current
than the actual devices). I can operate the devices by toggle switch
without the intermediate relays, but wanted to see what everyone
thought about how the S704-1 Relay is used in my schemes.
What advantage is secured by doing this? It
adds weight and complexity. Why an 'avionics
switch'? It too adds complexity and offers
single point of failure for all avionics.
A Boeing 787 doesn't have one . . . they
were slightly useful in 1965 but totally
worthless by 1980.
2. Inputs to the EIS device where the 4.8V excitation outputs are
used to drive the sensors (oil, temp. pressure) and the way they are
wired electrically for each circuit. Specifically how the Resistors
are in series and parallel.
Are these resistors required per manufacturer's installation
instructions? There are better ways to 'package' these.
Threaded fastener terminal strips are kind of a
last resort.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
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