Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:00 PM - Lithium Battery and Alternator Failure (Chris Mullins)
2. 02:29 PM - Re: Lithium Battery and Alternator Failure (skywagon185guy)
3. 03:20 PM - Re: Lithium Battery and Alternator Failure (user9253)
4. 03:31 PM - Re: Re: Lithium Battery and Alternator Failure (Bevan Tomm)
5. 04:42 PM - Re: Lithium Battery and Alternator Failure (user9253)
6. 06:12 PM - Re: Lithium Battery and Alternator Failure (Ernest Christley)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Lithium Battery and Alternator Failure |
Hi Bob,
I've read your list and many other contributions for several years, and
have learned a tremendous amount. I think this list and others of its type
are examples of the best of the internet.
I've had some experiences and a significant recent failure with a Plane
Power/Hartzell alternator and Lithium Iron Phosphate battery installation
which might be interesting to the community.
I built the Carbon Cub EX over 2013-2017 using resources from this list and
the Aeroelectric Connection to design and install the electrical system.
The electrical system, panel and firewall forward installation are
different from stock. The engine is an IO-340 with mods for a bit of
increased power and with weight control in mind. LiFePo4 battery location
is on the firewall perimeter about the 2 o'clock standing at the spinner.
No battery box. No dedicated blast air. I have a thermocouple placed
between the back of the battery and its mount made of some aluminum angle.
I sought out a LiFe battery with no BMS because I felt the eccentricities
in chemistry could be mitigated, but that the BMS systems available at the
time (2017) were problematic for my application. Battery is Deltran PN:
BTL35A480C, PB Eq: 26-35A, LCA:480, 96 Watt Hours. (96/12=8 AH). (I *think*
they still sell about the same battery but now only with a BMS: BTL24A480CW
.)
The alternator is a Plane Power Hartzel internally regulated 60 Amp
experimental. Charging rate is monitored with a Hall Effect sensor on the B
lead reading to a Dynon HDX.
Operating Experience:
Following normal starting I see 60 amp charging rates into the battery for
about 30 seconds. The charge rate tapers and stabilizes under 10 amps over
another 30 secs or so. This is usual behavior since new over 100's of
starts. (Well over 500 hours on all these components). The B lead is
protected by a 60 amp ANL fuse which has never blown.
Alternator Failure:
About 30 flight hours ago the panel mounted 'Alternator Out' LED became
permanently illuminated. This lamp had flickered from time to time since
original installation. Alternator behavior was normal otherwise. I
contacted Hartzell and for initial troubleshooting, they chose to send me
an incandescent lamp to replace the LED for testing purposes. I was not
able to do that test before departing on a cross country trip. On this trip
the field breaker popped during cruise flight. First time ever. I saw no
indications of any other issues. I reset the breaker and the system
appeared to be functioning normally again, except for the persistent Alt
Out indication.
Following a takeoff about 10 hours after the breaker had popped, the
charging output remained over 30 amps for several minutes. I was fortunate
to be at a 'big' airport and remained in the pattern. Alternator output
then dropped close to zero and system voltage read ambient battery
(about12.7v).
I had to beg a bit, but mfg overnighted me a replacement alternator. Said
they believed I burned it up by not running a battery management system.
But I have a few questions:
Does this failure mode, that the battery is 'too hungry' for the
alternator, seem plausible?
Would there be a straightforward means to 'throttle' charging current
through the B lead to 'protect' the alternator?
My workflow since installing the new alternator around 15 flight hours ago
has been to manually cycle the field (using the master switch) every 5
seconds after start until the charging current stabilizes below 25 amps or
so. Is this a reasonable procedure? Or am I just creating more unintended
consequences?
Other suggestions about how to improve this system?
I think I am most likely heading for a replacement battery with a BMS. I
think this would be ok as they seem to be more refined devices at this
point.
Thanks to all for your participation on this List!
Chris Mullins
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Lithium Battery and Alternator Failure |
Chris,
Lithium batteries are great energy resources. However, one of its benefits
can bite you in the "alternator". Here's how....
The internal resistance of these batteries are so low that they can easily
take and give huge amounts of current.
When the alternator is turning at low (idle) rpm's it has minimal cooling
going on from it's pulley air fan.
However, the "L" battery is designed to take its maximum current output
even at alternator idle.. This kind of demand quickly overheats many of
the components in the alternator; connectors, contacts, wiring, etc.
Sooner or later, that alternator is going to fail due to excessive heat
related damage.
If the alternator was never operated at idle rpms it would probably be
cooled enough via its fan related cooling system. Butl, at idle it is
cooking.
There is a technical way to get around this. And, that is to add a smart
DC to DC converter that can be set to not exceed a certain charging current
level.
Thus, instead of a 60 amp alternator trying to put out 60+ amps at low
rpm's, the converter could be set to, say, 30 amps.
On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 1:07 PM Chris Mullins <mullincl@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Bob,
> I've read your list and many other contributions for several years, and
> have learned a tremendous amount. I think this list and others of its type
> are examples of the best of the internet.
> I've had some experiences and a significant recent failure with a Plane
> Power/Hartzell alternator and Lithium Iron Phosphate battery installation
> which might be interesting to the community.
> I built the Carbon Cub EX over 2013-2017 using resources from this list
> and the Aeroelectric Connection to design and install the electrical
> system.
>
> The electrical system, panel and firewall forward installation are
> different from stock. The engine is an IO-340 with mods for a bit of
> increased power and with weight control in mind. LiFePo4 battery location
> is on the firewall perimeter about the 2 o'clock standing at the spinner.
> No battery box. No dedicated blast air. I have a thermocouple placed
> between the back of the battery and its mount made of some aluminum angle.
> I sought out a LiFe battery with no BMS because I felt the eccentricities
> in chemistry could be mitigated, but that the BMS systems available at the
> time (2017) were problematic for my application. Battery is Deltran PN:
> BTL35A480C, PB Eq: 26-35A, LCA:480, 96 Watt Hours. (96/12=8 AH). (I *think*
> they still sell about the same battery but now only with a BMS:
> BTL24A480CW.)
> The alternator is a Plane Power Hartzel internally regulated 60 Amp
> experimental. Charging rate is monitored with a Hall Effect sensor on the B
> lead reading to a Dynon HDX.
>
> Operating Experience:
> Following normal starting I see 60 amp charging rates into the battery for
> about 30 seconds. The charge rate tapers and stabilizes under 10 amps over
> another 30 secs or so. This is usual behavior since new over 100's of
> starts. (Well over 500 hours on all these components). The B lead is
> protected by a 60 amp ANL fuse which has never blown.
>
> Alternator Failure:
> About 30 flight hours ago the panel mounted 'Alternator Out' LED became
> permanently illuminated. This lamp had flickered from time to time since
> original installation. Alternator behavior was normal otherwise. I
> contacted Hartzell and for initial troubleshooting, they chose to send me
> an incandescent lamp to replace the LED for testing purposes. I was not
> able to do that test before departing on a cross country trip. On this trip
> the field breaker popped during cruise flight. First time ever. I saw no
> indications of any other issues. I reset the breaker and the system
> appeared to be functioning normally again, except for the persistent Alt
> Out indication.
>
> Following a takeoff about 10 hours after the breaker had popped, the
> charging output remained over 30 amps for several minutes. I was fortunate
> to be at a 'big' airport and remained in the pattern. Alternator output
> then dropped close to zero and system voltage read ambient battery
> (about12.7v).
> I had to beg a bit, but mfg overnighted me a replacement alternator. Said
> they believed I burned it up by not running a battery management system.
>
> But I have a few questions:
> Does this failure mode, that the battery is 'too hungry' for the
> alternator, seem plausible?
> Would there be a straightforward means to 'throttle' charging current
> through the B lead to 'protect' the alternator?
> My workflow since installing the new alternator around 15 flight hours ago
> has been to manually cycle the field (using the master switch) every 5
> seconds after start until the charging current stabilizes below 25 amps or
> so. Is this a reasonable procedure? Or am I just creating more unintended
> consequences?
> Other suggestions about how to improve this system?
>
> I think I am most likely heading for a replacement battery with a BMS. I
> think this would be ok as they seem to be more refined devices at this
> point.
>
> Thanks to all for your participation on this List!
>
> Chris Mullins
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Lithium Battery and Alternator Failure |
> Would there be a straightforward means to 'throttle' charging current through
the B lead to 'protect' the alternator?
Put a diode in series with the alternator output to reduce the current.
An option is to install a switch in parallel with the diode. The pilot can close
the switch one minute after takeoff to bypass the diode.
Another option is to use a delay-on timing relay instead of a manual switch. That
would automate the process. No pilot action required.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=503529#503529
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Lithium Battery and Alternator Failure |
Joe,
Do you have a type/rating for the diode you're recommending? I don't
think of a diode as a current limiting device.
Bevan
On 2021-10-14 3:20 p.m., user9253 wrote:
>
>
>> Would there be a straightforward means to 'throttle' charging current through
the B lead to 'protect' the alternator?
> Put a diode in series with the alternator output to reduce the current.
> An option is to install a switch in parallel with the diode. The pilot can close
the switch one minute after takeoff to bypass the diode.
> Another option is to use a delay-on timing relay instead of a manual switch.
That would automate the process. No pilot action required.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=503529#503529
>
>
--
Bevan Tomm Senior Technician Fraser Valley Alarm Services Inc. 604-854-2994
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Lithium Battery and Alternator Failure |
EarthX recommends using a diode to limit charge current.
https://earthxbatteries.com/dual-bus-lithium-battery-design
A diode reduces the charging voltage that the battery sees, thus reducing the charge
current.
Another way to look at it is that the diode adds resistance to the circuit, thus
reducing current.
Any diode rated for the current will work. Mount the diode with heat conductive
paste so that it doesn't get too hot.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=503532#503532
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Lithium Battery and Alternator Failure |
Put a thermister on the lead that controls the input to the alternator wou
ld be a much simpler solution.Alternator gets hot, resistance increases, in
put current decreases, life is good. On Thursday, October 14, 2021, 05:3
0:10 PM EDT, skywagon185guy <skywagon185@gmail.com> wrote:
Chris,Lithium batteries are great energy resources.=C2- However, one of
its benefits can bite you in the "alternator".=C2- Here's how....The inte
rnal resistance of these batteries are so low that they can easily take and
give huge amounts of current.
When the alternator is turning at low (idle) rpm's it has minimal cooling g
oing on from it's pulley air fan.=C2-=C2-However, the "L" battery is de
signed to take its maximum current output even at alternator idle..=C2- T
his kind of demand quickly overheats many of the components in the alternat
or; connectors, contacts, wiring, etc.Sooner or later, that alternator is g
oing to fail due to excessive heat related damage.If the=C2-alternator wa
s never operated at idle rpms it would probably be cooled enough via its fa
n related cooling system. Butl, at idle it is cooking.There is a technical
way to get around this.=C2- And, that is to add a smart DC to DC converte
r that can be set to not exceed a certain charging current level.Thus, inst
ead of a 60 amp alternator trying to put out 60+ amps at low rpm's, the con
verter could be set to, say, 30 amps.
On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 1:07 PM Chris Mullins <mullincl@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Bob,I've read your list and many other contributions for several years,
and have learned a tremendous amount. I think this list and others of its t
ype are examples of the best of the internet.I've had some experiences and
a significant recent failure with a Plane Power/Hartzell alternator and Lit
hium Iron Phosphate battery installation which might be interesting to the
community.I built the Carbon Cub EX over 2013-2017 using resources from thi
s list and the Aeroelectric Connection to design and install the electrical
system.
The electrical system, panel and firewall forward installation are differen
t from stock. The engine is an IO-340 with mods for a bit of increased powe
r and with weight control in mind. LiFePo4 battery location is on the firew
all perimeter about the 2 o'clock standing at the spinner. No battery box.
No dedicated blast air. I have a thermocouple placed between the back of th
e battery and its mount made of some aluminum angle. I sought out a LiFe ba
ttery with no BMS because I felt the eccentricities in chemistry could be m
itigated, but that the BMS systems available at the time (2017) were proble
matic for my application. Battery is Deltran PN: BTL35A480C, PB Eq: 26-35A,
LCA:480, 96 Watt Hours. (96/12=8 AH). (I *think* they still sell about t
he same battery but now only with a BMS:=C2-BTL24A480CW.)The alternator i
s a Plane Power Hartzel internally regulated 60 Amp experimental. Charging
rate is monitored with a Hall Effect sensor on the B lead reading to a Dyno
n HDX.
Operating Experience: Following normal starting I see 60 amp charging rates
into the battery for about 30 seconds. The charge rate tapers and stabiliz
es under 10 amps over another 30 secs or so. This is usual behavior since n
ew over 100's of starts. (Well over 500 hours on all these components). The
B lead is protected by a 60 amp ANL fuse which has never blown.
Alternator Failure:About 30 flight hours ago the panel mounted 'Alternator
Out' LED became permanently illuminated. This lamp had flickered from time
to time since original installation. Alternator behavior was normal otherwi
se. I contacted Hartzell and for initial troubleshooting,=C2- they chose
to send me an incandescent lamp to replace the LED for testing purposes. I
was not able to do that test before departing on a cross country trip. On t
his trip the field breaker popped during cruise flight. First time ever. I
saw no indications of any other issues.=C2- I reset the breaker and the s
ystem appeared to be functioning normally again, except for the persistent
Alt Out indication.
Following a takeoff about 10 hours after the breaker had popped, the chargi
ng output remained over 30 amps for several minutes. I was fortunate to be
at=C2- a 'big' airport and remained in the pattern. Alternator output the
n dropped close to zero and system voltage read ambient battery (about12.7v
).I had to beg a bit, but mfg overnighted me a replacement alternator. Said
they believed I burned it up by not running a battery management system.
But I have a few questions:Does this failure mode, that the battery is 'too
hungry' for the alternator, seem plausible?
Would there be a straightforward means to 'throttle' charging current throu
gh the B lead to 'protect' the alternator?
My workflow since installing the new alternator around 15 flight hours ago
has been to manually cycle the field (using the master switch) every 5 seco
nds after start until the charging current stabilizes below 25 amps or so.
Is this a reasonable procedure? Or am I just creating more unintended conse
quences?
Other suggestions about how to improve this system?
I think I am most likely heading for a replacement battery with a BMS. I th
ink this would be ok as they seem to be more refined devices at this point.
Thanks to all for your participation on this List!
Chris Mullins
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