Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:33 AM - Re: Z 16 Charging question (user9253)
2. 04:45 AM - Re: Audio panel move (user9253)
3. 05:18 AM - Re: Re: Audio panel move (Roger)
4. 05:25 AM - Re: Re: Z 16 Charging question (William Daniell)
5. 07:58 AM - Re: Re: Audio panel move (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 08:46 AM - Re: Z 16 Charging question (user9253)
7. 09:15 AM - Re: Re: Z 16 Charging question (William Daniell)
8. 09:39 AM - Subject: Re: Lithium Battery and Alternator Failure (Chris Mullins)
9. 10:00 AM - Re: Subject: Re: Lithium Battery and Alternator Failure (Bill Boyd)
10. 10:53 AM - Re: Subject: Re: Lithium Battery and Alternator Failure (Charlie England)
11. 07:38 PM - Fw: Aero Electric Post (Neal George)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Z 16 Charging question |
There is no way that a faulty regulator can make a Rotax dynamo put out 60 amps.
It is only capable of 20 amps or so. There must be a bad connection somewhere.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=503553#503553
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| Subject: | Re: Audio panel move |
Why install connectors in a location that will never need to be taken apart?
Just splice in extra wire and solder or crimp.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=503554#503554
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| Subject: | Re: Audio panel move |
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Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Z 16 Charging question |
Joe
Thanks. Yes ...the first time it happened it caused a bit of worry until i
realised i had no smoke in the cockpit...and everything was working
normally. And once id calmed down i came to the same conclusion. I have
to fault find that.
But what do you think of the fluctuating battery charging level? Is that
normal? Or might it be the instrument?
Will
William Daniell
+1 786 878 0246
On Mon, Oct 18, 2021, 07:36 user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> There is no way that a faulty regulator can make a Rotax dynamo put out 60
> amps.
> It is only capable of 20 amps or so. There must be a bad connection
> somewhere.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=503553#503553
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Audio panel move |
At 07:18 AM 10/18/2021, you wrote:
>I think I would find it much easier to make a short extension on the
>bench than to crawl up into the instrument panel with my soldering
>iron and various other tools, but that's only me, a very old fart!
From one ol' fart to another, agreed. MUCH reduced
chance for errors that are EASY to make and very
difficult to find/fix.
44 pin devices would be the sub-miniature D-Subs.
Sorry. No inventory on that series of devices.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Z 16 Charging question |
It is unlikely that the Skyview is at fault. The vast majority of electrical problems
are
caused by bad connections. Take every related connection apart and reassemble.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=503558#503558
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| Subject: | Re: Z 16 Charging question |
....sadly I think you're right.
William Daniell
LONGPORT
+1 786 878 0246
On Mon, Oct 18, 2021 at 11:50 AM user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It is unlikely that the Skyview is at fault. The vast majority of
> electrical problems are
> caused by bad connections. Take every related connection apart and
> reassemble.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=503558#503558
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Lithium Battery and Alternator Failure |
Thanks to the group for your responses on this problem.
Follow up on questions asked:
Bus voltage before the alternator failed was about 13.8. This was the
standard voltage seen with this alternator during it's life. I believe the
Plane Power alternators do have overvoltage protection. Battery cell
balancing has been accomplished using a Li specific maintainer on the
ground. The last capacity check on this battery was June 2021 and it was
about 20% reduced from new.
I'm hearing Bob loud and clear that theoretically the alternator should be
able to tolerate these conditions without problems. I am understanding Bob
to suggest that I keep flying it like it is. But allusions have also been
made to lower reliability for these units.
Bob, would you please explain the phrase "failure of process control"?
(manufacturing tolerances?)
Also, do you assume this failure was related more to an individual fault in
the failed alternator and that it is not likely the replacement will have
the same vulnerability?
I'm focused more on the practical side of how to make this less likely to
happen again.
Bob made this statement:
The only way to 'smoke' a
normally functioning alternator is to operate
it at near max rated output for extended
periods of time with INADEQUATE cooling.
I am wondering if my installation is creating this exact scenario after
startup - max demand (abruptly from 0 to 60amps) and minimal airflow for
cooling. Undercowl preheating of the alternator during hot starts could be
additive.
The mfgr says his product can't tolerate a Li battery with no BMS, and
under the circumstances, I'm inclined to believe him. He has basically
asked me to de-rate the alternator after startup until the battery recovers
it's baseline charge.
Respectfully, if I end up choosing to modify the system, there were several
suggestions to place components in the B lead. This approach would need
'devices' rated to handle the full current and heat energy of the
alternator output - big connections, dollars etc.
This is probably a foolish question, but could one accomplish the same
thing by restricting the field circuit in some way? (It seems any of these
modifications will end up de-rating the alternator under all flight
conditions. In my installation I can accept that.)
Thanks again to all for sharing your expertise.
Chris Mullins
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Lithium Battery and Alternator Failure |
Chris,
I don't know how helpful this input is, but I'd consider de-rating the
Plane Power alternator by converting it to a product from B&C. I made the
buy-once, cry-once decision based on reliability reports on VAF and haven't
looked back.
On Mon, Oct 18, 2021 at 12:46 PM Chris Mullins <mullincl@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks to the group for your responses on this problem.
>
> Follow up on questions asked:
> Bus voltage before the alternator failed was about 13.8. This was the
> standard voltage seen with this alternator during it's life. I believe the
> Plane Power alternators do have overvoltage protection. Battery cell
> balancing has been accomplished using a Li specific maintainer on the
> ground. The last capacity check on this battery was June 2021 and it was
> about 20% reduced from new.
>
> I'm hearing Bob loud and clear that theoretically the alternator should be
> able to tolerate these conditions without problems. I am understanding Bob
> to suggest that I keep flying it like it is. But allusions have also been
> made to lower reliability for these units.
> Bob, would you please explain the phrase "failure of process control"?
> (manufacturing tolerances?)
> Also, do you assume this failure was related more to an individual fault
> in the failed alternator and that it is not likely the replacement will
> have the same vulnerability?
>
> I'm focused more on the practical side of how to make this less likely to
> happen again.
> Bob made this statement:
>
> The only way to 'smoke' a
> normally functioning alternator is to operate
> it at near max rated output for extended
> periods of time with INADEQUATE cooling.
>
> I am wondering if my installation is creating this exact scenario after
> startup - max demand (abruptly from 0 to 60amps) and minimal airflow for
> cooling. Undercowl preheating of the alternator during hot starts could be
> additive.
>
> The mfgr says his product can't tolerate a Li battery with no BMS, and
> under the circumstances, I'm inclined to believe him. He has basically
> asked me to de-rate the alternator after startup until the battery recovers
> it's baseline charge.
>
> Respectfully, if I end up choosing to modify the system, there were
> several suggestions to place components in the B lead. This approach would
> need 'devices' rated to handle the full current and heat energy of the
> alternator output - big connections, dollars etc.
> This is probably a foolish question, but could one accomplish the same
> thing by restricting the field circuit in some way? (It seems any of these
> modifications will end up de-rating the alternator under all flight
> conditions. In my installation I can accept that.)
>
> Thanks again to all for sharing your expertise.
>
> Chris Mullins
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Lithium Battery and Alternator Failure |
Excellent joke (and advice), but I suspect that it won't be a '/de/rating'.
;-)
I don't think it will help your situation any, but there is a European
regulator made for 'dynamo' style (permanent magnet) alternators that
starts out with lower charge *voltage*, and slowly ramps up, which is
what you're effectively asking for.
FWIW, 55-60A internally regulated automotive alternators get hammered
like that all the time in cars, in much worse temperature environments,
and seem to survive just fine. (And you can buy one for way less than
$100, too). You'd have to go through the inconvenience of adding $50
worth of external OV protection, of course...
Charlie
On 10/18/2021 11:59 AM, Bill Boyd wrote:
> Chris,
>
> I don't know how helpful this input is, but I'd consider de-rating the
> Plane Power alternator by converting it to a product from B&C. I made
> the buy-once, cry-once decision based on reliability reports on VAF
> and haven't looked back.
>
> On Mon, Oct 18, 2021 at 12:46 PM Chris Mullins <mullincl@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks to the group for your responses on this problem.
>
> Follow up on questions asked:
> Bus voltage before the alternator failed was about 13.8. This was
> the standard voltage seen with this alternator during it's life. I
> believe the Plane Power alternators do have overvoltage
> protection. Battery cell balancing has been accomplished using a
> Li specific maintainer on the ground. The last capacity check on
> this battery was June 2021 and it was about 20% reduced from new.
>
> I'm hearing Bob loud and clear that theoretically the alternator
> should be able to tolerate these conditions without problems. I am
> understanding Bob to suggest that I keep flying it like it is. But
> allusions have also been made to lower reliability for these units.
> Bob, would you please explain the phrase "failure of process
> control"? (manufacturing tolerances?)
> Also, do you assume this failure was related more to an individual
> fault in the failed alternator and that it is not likely the
> replacement will have the same vulnerability?
>
> I'm focused more on the practical side of how to make this less
> likely to happen again.
> Bob made this statement:
>
> The only way to 'smoke' a
> normally functioning alternator is to operate
> it at near max rated output for extended
> periods of time with INADEQUATE cooling.
>
> I am wondering if my installation is creating this exact scenario
> after startup - max demand (abruptly from 0 to 60amps) and minimal
> airflow for cooling. Undercowl preheating of the alternator during
> hot starts could be additive.
>
> The mfgr says his product can't tolerate a Li battery with no BMS,
> and under the circumstances, I'm inclined to believe him. He has
> basically asked me to de-rate the alternator after startup until
> the battery recovers it's baseline charge.
>
> Respectfully, if I end up choosing to modify the system, there
> were several suggestions to place components in the B lead. This
> approach would need 'devices' rated to handle the full current and
> heat energy of the alternator output - big connections, dollars etc.
> This is probably a foolish question, but could one accomplish the
> same thing by restricting the field circuit in some way? (It seems
> any of these modifications will end up de-rating the alternator
> under all flight conditions. In my installation I can accept that.)
>
> Thanks again to all for sharing your expertise.
>
> Chris Mullins
>
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Message 11
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| Subject: | Fwd: Aero Electric Post |
Bob et al-
One of my neighbors has experienced two sheared alternator couplings
recently. Prior to the first event, his electrical system ran
trouble-free for approximately 500 hours. More detail in his narrative
below.
Neal
=====
Within the last ~250 hours I've had two alternator shear couplings fail
on my RV-6. The first failed after ~248 hours of flying, the second
failed at less than two. The alternator is a Plane Power FS1-14B (30A,
internally regulated, bolted to the accessory pad) and the airplane is
wired using Bob Nuckoll's Z-11 diagram in the Aero Electric connection.
This is the only alternator on the plane.
The airplane is a full-up Dynon system (10" Skyview, ADS-B, transponder,
wx rcvr), a Garmin GTR200 radio, landing light, strobes, nav light. None
of the lights were turned on between repairing the first failure and the
second one.
The going failure theory is an intermittent connection in the field
circuit that induces a heavy alternator load by turning it on and off
but there isn't anything in the 1Hz data traces from the Dynon that
indicates this is the case. Nor is there evidence of any loose
connections or nicked wires in the field circuit.
The image shows the volt and amp trace for the last 1.7 hour flight. The
failure occurred around count #6184. The noise on the front end is
startup and taxi. The blip around 2291 was plugging in an iPad.
Any ideas on the failure mode?
Keystone Aerospace LLC
Gregg Costabile, President/Owner
(850) 585-3149
gcostabile@cox.net <mailto:gcostabile@cox.net>
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