Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:06 AM - Re: Sv: ULPower Alternator/Regulator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 02:48 PM - 2021 List of Contributors (Matt Dralle)
3. 04:16 PM - Re: ULPower Alternator/Regulator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 04:23 PM - Re: ULPower Alternator/Regulator (Sebastien)
5. 04:30 PM - Re: ULPower Alternator/Regulator (Charlie England)
6. 04:32 PM - Re: ULPower Alternator/Regulator (Charlie England)
7. 04:54 PM - Re: ULPower Alternator/Regulator (Sebastien)
8. 05:21 PM - Re: ULPower Alternator/Regulator (Charlie England)
9. 05:32 PM - Re: ULPower Alternator/Regulator (Sebastien)
10. 05:48 PM - Re: ULPower Alternator/Regulator (C&K)
11. 06:07 PM - Z101b NTE53016 Equivalent, also Switches, Relay Alternatives (Jared Yates)
12. 07:02 PM - Re: Z101b NTE53016 Equivalent, also Switches, Relay Alternatives (Charlie England)
13. 07:23 PM - Re: Z101b NTE53016 Equivalent, also Switches, Relay Alternatives (user9253)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: ULPower Alternator/Regulator |
At 06:23 AM 12/25/2021, you wrote:
>Hi!
>
>Here is what ULPower says about their regulators capacity to handle
>failures. The capacitor is key....
>
>This is from the 520T manual available on net. The 30 Amp
>installation might be different, but is also available online.
>"The ECU needs a stable DC output . If the battery fails, or there
>is an open contact inside, the buffering characteristics from the
>battery fail also . Such a situation may result in an unstable power
>supply to the ECU. Therefore, we strongly recommend the installation
>of a genuine ULP capacitor (this capacitor is able to cover for the
>big amount of amps coming from the alternator/regulator) parallel on
>the battery.
>
>Likewise, a failure of the RR may result in an erratic power output,
>which is buffered by the battery and capacitor."
This narrative is nearly a clone of legacy legends about
alternator/battery operations and he real needs of automotive
electronics. Just the high points:
Batteries don't 'buffer' anything. They deliver energy at
12.5 and below, they require something on the order of
13.8 to 14.4 to charge. Between those conditions,
they're very nearly an open circuit. They cannot
act as some sort of super-capacitor that smooths the
alternator's output voltage.
Put an oscilloscope on the DC bus while your
car is operating under various electrical
system demands . . . VERY trashy whether the battery
is connected or not.
A battery IS a storage vessel for energy when the
alternator quits . . . it WILL stand off the over-
excited alternator run-away and/or alternator-
load dump for the hundreds of milliseconds that
the OV management system needs to make up its mind.
But in no way is it any kind of filter for normal
operations of the ship's electro-whizzies.
Check out the suite of plots taken from a B&C
SD-8 alternator under various conditions of
load, and existence of battery and/or 'filter'
capacitor.
https://tinyurl.com/y6tgyzaa
Note that under light loads is when ripple is
greatest. The presence of a battery or capacitor
makes little observable difference . . . cause
under load, the alternator's ripple voltage
is rather small.
"Unstable power supply" is not defined. What's nominal?
What are acceptable excursions from nominal that
degrade ECU performance?
What size capacitor? You can easily calculate capacitor size
needed to reduce a KNOWN ripple voltage under KNOWN current
demands to an ACCEPTABLE amplitude per requirements
stated above. (Hint . . . it's a LOT bigger than
the 'recommended' sizes published by most manufacturers)
Since requirements for the ECU and alternator
output characteristics are not stated the value
of or justification for a capacitor is not
validated.
If OBAM aviation has a significant downside, it's
that many products are sold and operated on aircraft
with meager knowledge of the performace NUMBERS. We're
the world's largest consumers of field-qualified
products in aviation.
If I were tasked to integrate this engine and its
supplied accessories into a TC aircraft, ALL those
numbers would be KNOWN by qualification and flight
tests documented in voluminous reports. Both
alternator/battery system AND ECU would be qualified
to some normal and adverse conditions and NUMBERS
secured to assure a harmonious marriage with the
ship's compliment of electrics.
The statement quoted is pretty 'generic' . . .
offered up by most engine suppliers to OBAM aviation
for decades but not backed up with documented,
quantified physics.
If ANY supplier to the OBAM aviation market finds
these assertions in error, please, Please, PLEASE
join us here and make your argument. The last
thing we wish to do here is be an echo chamber
for bad information.
Make my day . . . show me where I'm wrong!
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
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| Subject: | 2021 List of Contributors |
Dear Listers,
The 2021 Matronics Email List and Forum Fund Raiser officially ended a couple of
weeks ago and it's time that I published this year's List of Contributors (LOC).
It is the people on this list that directly make these Email Lists and Forums
possible! Their generous Contributions keep the servers and Internet connection
up and running!
You can still show your support this year and pick up a great gift at the same
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Or, by dropping a personal check in the mail to:
Matt Dralle / Matronics
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore CA 94550
And finally, I'm proud to present The 2021 Fund Raiser List of Contributors (LOC):
https://matronics.com/loc
Thank you again to everyone that made a Contribution this year!!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List & Forum Administrator
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| Subject: | Re: ULPower Alternator/Regulator |
At 10:23 PM 12/24/2021, you wrote:
> If I can get permission I will post the schematic to the list;
> notwithstanding its problematic features it's quite a work of art.
>
>Regards,
>
>Sebastien
Is this document published on the 'net? If so, permission to republish
should not be an issue as long as original source is not obscured.
If you know of a link, you can share that and let people download
themselves.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
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| Subject: | Re: ULPower Alternator/Regulator |
No, it was sent to me by a member of our local Recreational
Aircraft Association and was created by a friend of his for his Zenith 750.
On Mon, Dec 27, 2021, 19:19 Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 10:23 PM 12/24/2021, you wrote:
>
> If I can get permission I will post the schematic to the list;
> notwithstanding its problematic features it's quite a work of art.
>
> Regards,
>
> Sebastien
>
>
> Is this document published on the 'net? If so, permission to republish
> should not be an issue as long as original source is not obscured.
>
> If you know of a link, you can share that and let people download
> themselves.
>
> Bob . . .
>
> Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
> survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
> out of that stuff?"
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: ULPower Alternator/Regulator |
On 12/27/2021 6:15 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 10:23 PM 12/24/2021, you wrote:
>> If I can get permission I will post the schematic to the list;
>> notwithstanding its problematic features it's quite a work of art.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Sebastien
>
> Is this document published on the 'net? If so, permission to republish
> should not be an issue as long as original source is not obscured.
>
> If you know of a link, you can share that and let people download
> themselves.
>
> Bob . . .
>
A little google-foo yields:
https://ulpower.com/en/engines/manuals
The website itself doesn't seem to have a public-facing link to the
page, but there it is.
Charlie
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| Subject: | Re: ULPower Alternator/Regulator |
On 12/27/2021 6:22 PM, Sebastien wrote:
> No, it was sent to me by a member of our local Recreational
> AircraftAssociation and was created by a friend of his for his Zenith
> 750.
I thought we were talking about ULPower's diagram in their installation
manual. Are we talking about some individual's self-created diagram?
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| Subject: | Re: ULPower Alternator/Regulator |
There are two documents mentioned in this discussion Charlie. One is the
ULPower diagram I attached to the thread, the other is a document that I
cannot share at this time. I was reviewing this document and found several
problems with it and was trying to help them correct these problems by
pointing them to the installation instructions from ULPower. Unfortunately
while these instructions are much better than their current architecture,
I'm still finding them problematic for their own reasons as Joe and Bob
have pointed out. I have also pointed them to the AEC and Z101b.
They seem receptive to suggestions but the aircraft is already built. I'm
not sure how far they are willing to redo the electrical system. As it
stands there are 3 circuit protective devices, one solenoid, and one switch
between the battery and the EDC. The alternator power goes through 2 extra
protective devices and an additional solenoid before getting to the EDC for
a whopping total of 8 points of failure in series between alternator and
engine but only 5 from the battery.
On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 4:35 PM Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
wrote:
> ceengland7@gmail.com>
>
> On 12/27/2021 6:22 PM, Sebastien wrote:
> > No, it was sent to me by a member of our local Recreational
> > Aircraft Association and was created by a friend of his for his Zenith
> > 750.
> I thought we were talking about ULPower's diagram in their installation
> manual. Are we talking about some individual's self-created diagram?
>
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| Subject: | Re: ULPower Alternator/Regulator |
On 12/27/2021 6:53 PM, Sebastien wrote:
> There are two documents mentioned in this discussion Charlie. One is
> the ULPower diagram I attached to the thread, the other is a document
> that I cannot share at this time. I was reviewing this document and
> found several problems with it and was trying to help them correct
> these problems by pointing them to the installation instructions from
> ULPower. Unfortunately while these instructions are much better than
> their current architecture, I'm still finding them problematic for
> their own reasons as Joe and Bob have pointed out. I have also pointed
> them to the AEC and Z101b.
>
> They seem receptive to suggestions but the aircraft is already built.
> I'm not sure how far they are willing to redo the electrical system.
> As it stands there are 3 circuit protective devices, one solenoid, and
> one switch between the battery and the EDC. The alternator power goes
> through 2 extra protective devices and an additional solenoid before
> getting to the EDC for a whopping total of 8 points of failure in
> series between alternator and engine but only 5 from the battery.
>
> On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 4:35 PM Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> <ceengland7@gmail.com>
>
> On 12/27/2021 6:22 PM, Sebastien wrote:
> > No, it was sent to me by a member of our local Recreational
> > AircraftAssociation and was created by a friend of his for his
> Zenith
> > 750.
> I thought we were talking about ULPower's diagram in their
> installation
> manual. Are we talking about some individual's self-created diagram?
>
Ah; got it now. If it's a dual ECU, the factory diagram has its own
issues, that while they may not be single points of outright failure,
they could cause serious issues with engine operation. For instance, it
looks like a failed injector current sink (switches, labeled A, B, a, &
z) in either ECU could cause the injector to stay open.
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| Subject: | Re: ULPower Alternator/Regulator |
In this particular case it's a single ECU installation. Single battery and
alernator as well.
On Mon, Dec 27, 2021, 20:25 Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/27/2021 6:53 PM, Sebastien wrote:
>
> There are two documents mentioned in this discussion Charlie. One is the
> ULPower diagram I attached to the thread, the other is a document that I
> cannot share at this time. I was reviewing this document and found several
> problems with it and was trying to help them correct these problems by
> pointing them to the installation instructions from ULPower. Unfortunately
> while these instructions are much better than their current architecture,
> I'm still finding them problematic for their own reasons as Joe and Bob
> have pointed out. I have also pointed them to the AEC and Z101b.
>
> They seem receptive to suggestions but the aircraft is already built. I'm
> not sure how far they are willing to redo the electrical system. As it
> stands there are 3 circuit protective devices, one solenoid, and one switch
> between the battery and the EDC. The alternator power goes through 2 extra
> protective devices and an additional solenoid before getting to the EDC for
> a whopping total of 8 points of failure in series between alternator and
> engine but only 5 from the battery.
>
> On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 4:35 PM Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> ceengland7@gmail.com>
>>
>> On 12/27/2021 6:22 PM, Sebastien wrote:
>> > No, it was sent to me by a member of our local Recreational
>> > Aircraft Association and was created by a friend of his for his Zenith
>> > 750.
>> I thought we were talking about ULPower's diagram in their installation
>> manual. Are we talking about some individual's self-created diagram?
>>
> Ah; got it now. If it's a dual ECU, the factory diagram has its own
> issues, that while they may not be single points of outright failure, they
> could cause serious issues with engine operation. For instance, it looks
> like a failed injector current sink (switches, labeled A, B, a, & z) in
> either ECU could cause the injector to stay open.
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: ULPower Alternator/Regulator |
I've found that a failed open injector in flight is of little concern.
At high power settings it may not even be noticed. At mid power levels
it might run a little rough. Close the throttle too far and it merely
encourages you to not reduce power too much until you have to. Most
injectors are sized to run fairly high duty cycles at full power.
Ken
On 27/12/2021 8:26 PM, Charlie England wrote:
> On 12/27/2021 6:53 PM, Sebastien wrote:
>> There are two documents mentioned in this discussion Charlie. One is
>> the ULPower diagram I attached to the thread, the other is a document
>> that I cannot share at this time. I was reviewing this document and
>> found several problems with it and was trying to help them correct
>> these problems by pointing them to the installation instructions from
>> ULPower. Unfortunately while these instructions are much better than
>> their current architecture, I'm still finding them problematic for
>> their own reasons as Joe and Bob have pointed out. I have also
>> pointed them to the AEC and Z101b.
>>
>> They seem receptive to suggestions but the aircraft is already built.
>> I'm not sure how far they are willing to redo the electrical system.
>> As it stands there are 3 circuit protective devices, one solenoid,
>> and one switch between the battery and the EDC. The alternator power
>> goes through 2 extra protective devices and an additional solenoid
>> before getting to the EDC for a whopping total of 8 points of failure
>> in series between alternator and engine but only 5 from the battery.
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 4:35 PM Charlie England
>> <ceengland7@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> <ceengland7@gmail.com>
>>
>> On 12/27/2021 6:22 PM, Sebastien wrote:
>> > No, it was sent to me by a member of our local Recreational
>> > AircraftAssociation and was created by a friend of his for his
>> Zenith
>> > 750.
>> I thought we were talking about ULPower's diagram in their
>> installation
>> manual. Are we talking about some individual's self-created diagram?
>>
> Ah; got it now. If it's a dual ECU, the factory diagram has its own
> issues, that while they may not be single points of outright failure,
> they could cause serious issues with engine operation. For instance,
> it looks like a failed injector current sink (switches, labeled A, B,
> a, & z) in either ECU could cause the injector to stay open.
>
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| Subject: | Z101b NTE53016 Equivalent, also Switches, Relay Alternatives |
I'm in the process of going through the electrical architecture on an
already-flying airplane and need to do some shopping.
Z101b specifies the diode bridge NTE53016 which is available from Digikey.
But I'm placing an order from Mouser, and was wondering if this might be a
suitable equivalent?
https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/80/KBPC10005_G_Thru911241__KBPC5010_G_Series_RevB-2506443.pdf
or maybe this one, which is half the cost:
https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/169/kbpc3506t-2451205.pdf
Also, I'm needing some switches and B&C is closed until next week, has
anyone found good alternative suppliers for the S700 switches or the S704-1
Relay?
For switches, the most likely candidates I can find are the Carling Series
F for the single pole and Carling Series G for the double pole. It looks
like I'll need two s700-2-10 which B&C calls on-on-on but Carling doesn't
use the same terminology in their data sheet for the G series:
https://www.carlingtech.com/sites/default/files/documents/G-SeriesSW_Details_%26_COS.pdf
Which makes me wonder if I'm barking up the wrong tree with the G series.
Although, it looks like their 6GM5B-78 will work for the s700-2-5, which I
plan to use for magnetos and starter as per z-figures note 2.
For the S704-1 relay, I haven't found the same one yet, but I wonder if
something like this would work?
https://www3.panasonic.biz/ac/e_download/control/relay/vehicle/catalog/mech_eng_cb.pdf
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Z101b NTE53016 Equivalent, also Switches, Relay |
Alternatives
On 12/27/2021 8:04 PM, Jared Yates wrote:
> I'm in the process of going through the electrical architecture on an
> already-flying airplane and need to do some shopping.
>
> Z101b specifies the diode bridge NTE53016 which is available from
> Digikey. But I'm placing an order from Mouser, and was wondering if
> this might be a suitable equivalent?
> https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/80/KBPC10005_G_Thru911241__KBPC5010_G_Series_RevB-2506443.pdf
> or maybe this one, which is half the cost:
> https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/169/kbpc3506t-2451205.pdf
>
> Also, I'm needing some switches and B&C is closed until next week, has
> anyone found good alternative suppliers for the S700 switches or the
> S704-1 Relay?
>
> For switches, the most likely candidates I can find are the Carling
> Series F for the single pole and Carling Series G for the double pole.
> It looks like I'll need two s700-2-10 which B&C calls on-on-on but
> Carling doesn't use the same terminology in their data sheet for the G
> series:
> https://www.carlingtech.com/sites/default/files/documents/G-SeriesSW_Details_%26_COS.pdf
> Which makes me wonder if I'm barking up the wrong tree with the G series.
> Although, it looks like their6GM5B-78 will work for the s700-2-5,
> which I plan to use for magnetos and starter as per z-figures note 2.
>
> For the S704-1 relay, I haven't found the same one yet, but I wonder
> if something like this would work?
> https://www3.panasonic.biz/ac/e_download/control/relay/vehicle/catalog/mech_eng_cb.pdf
>
Just about any bridge rectifier rated at 50 amps and 200 volts will
work, but you can get that p/n from Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/NTE-Electronics-NTE53016-Rectifier-Recurrent/dp/B007Z7LXVQ
Manufacturer Part No NTE53016
Repetitive Reverse Voltage Vrrm Max: 200V
Forward Current If(AV): 50A
Bridge Rectifier Case Style: Module
Forward Voltage VF Max: 1.1V
8 more rows
<https://www.newark.com/nte-electronics/nte53016/diode-bridge-rectifier-1phase/dp/59R9567>
I'm pretty sure that the switches B&C sells are Carling, but I'm not in
the hangar at the moment to check.
For the relay, I wouldn't hesitate t use any quality 12V automotive
'cube' relay, like these from amazon:
https://smile.amazon.com/s?k=12v+automogive+cube+relay&crid=2TKICJOUWW2YT&sprefix=12v+automogive+cube+relay%2Caps%2C181&ref=nb_sb_noss_1
They're available with current ratings from around 25A to over 100A. B&C
lists one as their S8009:
https://bandc.com/product/spdt-relay-12v-40a-w-terminals/
There's no harm in using a higher current relay; as long as the coil
current is reasonable. The cube relays should meet that requirement.
FWIW,
Charlie
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Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Z101b NTE53016 Equivalent, also Switches, Relay |
Alternatives
A Schottky diode such as DSS2X61-0045A has less voltage drop.
They are out of stock at most major suppliers. But some are available on eBay
for less money.
Mouser has 747-DSS2X121-0045B in stock.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=505492#505492
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