Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:22 AM - ground power deep discharge of battery (werner schneider)
2. 02:34 AM - Re: ground power deep discharge of battery (Werner Schneider)
3. 03:38 AM - Re: ground power deep discharge of battery (Werner Schneider)
4. 07:44 AM - Re: ground power deep discharge of battery (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 07:52 AM - Re: ground power deep discharge of battery (user9253)
6. 08:10 AM - PWM ELEVATOR TRIM SERVO SPEED CONTROL (user9253)
7. 08:37 AM - Re: ground power deep discharge of battery (Werner Schneider)
8. 08:41 AM - Re: Re: ground power deep discharge of battery (Werner Schneider)
9. 12:03 PM - Re: PWM ELEVATOR TRIM SERVO SPEED CONTROL (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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Subject: | ground power deep discharge of battery |
Hello Folks,
never though about it but now with 2 partners things do just happen :(
You can energize the ground power plug only via an external battery connection,
however, when you later disconnect external power, the solenoid does stay energized,
if someone forgets to switch off the power plug, this seems to have happened
and in 4 days the battery was empty :( Anybody who has tackled that problem
in a way that the solenoid controlling the power plug does disconnect, when
external power is disconnected? the ground power plug is in the top left corner
of the diag.
Cheers Werner
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=505945#505945
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/glastar_ykp_1_7_a3_817.pdf
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: ground power deep discharge of battery |
If I remove that 24 AWG wire it should be ok shoulent it?
Now just wonder why I did add that wire!!
Werner
On 09.02.2022 11:21, werner schneider wrote:
>
> Hello Folks,
>
> never though about it but now with 2 partners things do just happen :(
>
> You can energize the ground power plug only via an external battery connection,
however, when you later disconnect external power, the solenoid does stay energized,
if someone forgets to switch off the power plug, this seems to have
happened and in 4 days the battery was empty :( Anybody who has tackled that problem
in a way that the solenoid controlling the power plug does disconnect,
when external power is disconnected? the ground power plug is in the top left
corner of the diag.
>
> Cheers Werner
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=505945#505945
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/glastar_ykp_1_7_a3_817.pdf
>
>
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: ground power deep discharge of battery |
Sorry,
not my day it seems, that is not a 24 AWG it's the 2AWG and I can not
leave it out.
On 09.02.2022 11:34, Werner Schneider wrote:
> <glastar@gmx.net>
>
> If I remove that 24 AWG wire it should be ok shoulent it?
>
> Now just wonder why I did add that wire!!
>
> Werner
>
> On 09.02.2022 11:21, werner schneider wrote:
>> <glastar@gmx.net>
>>
>> Hello Folks,
>>
>> never though about it but now with 2 partners things do just happen :(
>>
>> You can energize the ground power plug only via an external battery
>> connection, however, when you later disconnect external power, the
>> solenoid does stay energized, if someone forgets to switch off the
>> power plug, this seems to have happened and in 4 days the battery was
>> empty :( Anybody who has tackled that problem in a way that the
>> solenoid controlling the power plug does disconnect, when external
>> power is disconnected? the ground power plug is in the top left
>> corner of the diag.
>>
>> Cheers Werner
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=505945#505945
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Attachments:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/glastar_ykp_1_7_a3_817.pdf
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: ground power deep discharge of battery |
At 04:21 AM 2/9/2022, you wrote:
>
>Hello Folks,
>
>never though about it but now with 2 partners things do just happen :(
>
>You can energize the ground power plug only via an external battery
>connection, however, when you later disconnect external power, the
>solenoid does stay energized, if someone forgets to switch off the
>power plug, this seems to have happened and in 4 days the battery
>was empty :( Anybody who has tackled that problem in a way that the
>solenoid controlling the power plug does disconnect, when external
>power is disconnected? the ground power plug is in the top left
>corner of the diag.
This is not an uncommon problem with incorporation of the
Cole-Hersey style ground power jack. The big-daddy
of ground power jacks has a third pin that sequences
closure of contactor with respect to mating and demating
of power pins . . . it also manages power to the ground
power contactor preventing the situation you've
observed.
https://tinyurl.com/y9579yvo
I've had this discussion with readers over the
years but not sure if we hashed it out here on
the List. Waaayy back when, one of my readers
installed the AEC9005 battery management module
on his ground power contactor. Seems he ONLY
used this jumper cables when ground power was
supplied by an engine driven source (above 13.5
volts).
Under what circumstances did the switch-left-on
event occur? If you're using ground power to
supplement/substitute for ship's battery
to crank the engine, then presumably someone
is at the controls. Perhaps a light on the panel
to indicate CONTACTOR CLOSED would help.
Another option is to install a timer that
limits on-time for the contactor. A simple
circuit could be crafted to shut the contactor
down after, say 5 minutes after being energized.
If you only use ground power to jumper to engine
driven power source or a battery charger, then
the voltage sensitive management of contactor
function seems like the best bet. But this
would be a pain in the you-know-what for
battery cart starts.
If only intended to support an engine cranking
operation, then you could add a relay to
prevent energizing the ground power contactor
until the starter contactor is also commanded
to close.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: ground power deep discharge of battery |
Attached is a circuit that will shut off ground power contactor when master switch
is turned off.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=505953#505953
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/ground_power_relay__136.png
Message 6
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Subject: | PWM ELEVATOR TRIM SERVO SPEED CONTROL |
Van's RV-12 elevator trim servo speed is controlled by a PWM circuit.
The theory is that the trim motor sees full voltage and therefore its torque is
not reduced.
Is that true?
Some RV-12 owners have trouble adjusting the trim servo motor speed. The motor
either runs too fast or not at all.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=505954#505954
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: ground power deep discharge of battery |
Thanks a lot Bob,
the weak battery has a cold problem, so it was charged to warm up with
low Amps which helpes (until we have the new battery).
As teh switch is a bit out of sight (rule is switch off before
disconnect) he forgot about it.
I think I need to add a flashing light somewhere to remind him.
Thanks for confirmation
Werner
On 09.02.2022 16:43, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 04:21 AM 2/9/2022, you wrote:
>> <glastar@gmx.net>
>>
>> Hello Folks,
>>
>> never though about it but now with 2 partners things do just happen :(
>>
>> You can energize the ground power plug only via an external battery
>> connection, however, when you later disconnect external power, the
>> solenoid does stay energized, if someone forgets to switch off the
>> power plug, this seems to have happened and in 4 days the battery was
>> empty :( Anybody who has tackled that problem in a way that the
>> solenoid controlling the power plug does disconnect, when external
>> power is disconnected? the ground power plug is in the top left
>> corner of the diag.
>
> =C2- This is not an uncommon problem with incorporation of the
> =C2- Cole-Hersey style ground power jack. The big-daddy
> =C2- of ground power jacks has a third pin that sequences
> =C2- closure of contactor with respect to mating and demating
> =C2- of power pins . . . it also manages power to the ground
> =C2- power contactor preventing the situation you've
> =C2- observed.
>
> https://tinyurl.com/y9579yvo
>
> =C2- I've had this discussion with readers over the
> =C2- years but not sure if we hashed it out here on
> =C2- the List. Waaayy back when, one of my readers
> =C2- installed the AEC9005 battery management module
> =C2- on his ground power contactor. Seems he ONLY
> =C2- used this jumper cables when ground power was
> =C2- supplied by an engine driven source (above 13.5
> =C2- volts).
>
> =C2- Under what circumstances did the switch-left-on
> =C2- event occur? If you're using ground power to
> =C2- supplement/substitute for ship's battery
> =C2- to crank the engine, then presumably someone
> =C2- is at the controls. Perhaps a light on the panel
> =C2- to indicate CONTACTOR CLOSED would help.
>
> =C2- Another option is to install a timer that
> =C2- limits on-time for the contactor. A simple
> =C2- circuit could be crafted to shut the contactor
> =C2- down after, say 5 minutes after being energized.
> =C2- If you only use ground power to jumper to engine
> =C2- driven power source or a battery charger, then
> =C2- the voltage sensitive management of contactor
> =C2- function seems like the best bet. But this
> =C2- would be a pain in the you-know-what for
> =C2- battery cart starts.
>
> =C2- If only intended to support an engine cranking
> =C2- operation, then you could add a relay to
> =C2- prevent energizing the ground power contactor
> =C2- until the starter contactor is also commanded
> =C2- to close.
>
>
> =C2- Bob . . .
>
> =C2- Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
> =C2- survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
> =C2- out of that stuff?"
>
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: ground power deep discharge of battery |
Thanks Joe,
so you can only charge/start when you push the momentary switch, or the
master is on.
But interesting idea, will have to think about.
Cheers Werner
On 09.02.2022 16:51, user9253 wrote:
>
> Attached is a circuit that will shut off ground power contactor when master switch
is turned off.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=505953#505953
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/ground_power_relay__136.png
>
>
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: PWM ELEVATOR TRIM SERVO SPEED CONTROL |
At 10:10 AM 2/9/2022, you wrote:
>
>Van's RV-12 elevator trim servo speed is controlled by a PWM circuit.
>The theory is that the trim motor sees full voltage and therefore
>its torque is not reduced.
>Is that true?
>Some RV-12 owners have trouble adjusting the trim servo motor speed.
>The motor either runs too fast or not at all.
>
>--------
>Joe Gores
What are they using for speed control?
Series control like a variable resistor
isn't going to work. A PWM controller is
better but it's not ideal. The recommended
speed control management provides an
ADJUSTABLE, CONSTANT VOLTAGE (REGULATED)
SOURCE TO THE MOTOR. Here's one approach
I crafted for a builder about 17 years ago:
http://aeroelectric.com/PPS/Flight/Trim/trim6.pdf
His pitch trim motor was rather hefty . . . it
drew enough current to required one of the
larger LM317 devices. If we're talking about
the little MAC actuators, the smallest of LM317
(plastic TO220) will suffice.
There's a hangar full of bad science out
there about motor performance but here's a
place to start:
The attached curve is an EXEMPLAR performance
plot for a PM motor. Note that TORQUE is
directly proportional to CURRENT. RPM is
proportional to VOLTAGE. Hence, assuming that
the motor is operating within design limits,
a slowing motor is starved for VOLTAGE. In
the case of a trim system, torque loads are
not a function of trim speed . . . so if
speed regulation is poor, it's a prime notice
that VOLTAGE regulation is poor . . .series
resistors turn a constant voltage source
into a wet noodle.
Note that there is ONE plot for torque vs.
current that's true for ALL voltages. No
load RPM and STALL current are proportional
to voltage (note 6v stall is 1/2 that of
12v stall).
ACTIVE voltage regulators incorporated as
suggested in the drawing are CONSTANT
VOLTAGE sources irrespective of load.
Motors do not automatically 'draw more
current' as their driving voltage is reduced.
Using a series resistor to control speed
makes speed regulation so poor that it SEEMS
as if motor current is being modulated with
speed . . . not so.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
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