Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:58 AM - Re: LiFe Battery (ashleysc@broadstripe.net)
2. 09:16 AM - Re: LiFe Battery (Ken Ryan)
3. 11:55 AM - Re: LiFe Battery (Charlie England)
4. 02:31 PM - Thermocouple wire extension (Paul Eckenroth)
5. 08:08 PM - Re: Thermocouple wire extension (Eric Page)
6. 09:52 PM - Re: LiFe Battery (Stuart Hutchison)
7. 10:02 PM - Re: Re: Thermocouple wire extension (Charles Davis)
8. 10:30 PM - Re: LiFe Battery (H. Ivan Haecker)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: LiFe Battery |
Hi Stu.
The Battery Tender (charger) you mentioned is intended for LiFeO3 batteries. I
have one too. I have been through two Li FeO3 batteries. In my case it appeared
they didn't like the charging system on board the aircraft, even though the
charging current went to zero soon after starting the engine. I assumed it was
not being overcharged, but don't really know what caused the problem. Now I have
a much cheaper sealed lead acid battery, which I hope will be bombproof. Installed
in the tail cone, rather than atop the firewall, it will also help with
a slightly nose heavy condition. I have learned latterly that some LiFeO3 batteries
will "turn themselves off," when they get down to a 20% charge. Not a
good thing in an aircraft.
Cheers! Stu. Ashley
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stuart Hutchison" <stuart@stuarthutchison.com.au>
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2022 10:49:33 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: LiFe Battery
There is much misleading information out there suggesting chargers suitable for
Lead Acid are also suitable for Lithium. Do they work? Yes. Do they compromise
Lithium longevity? Also yes, absolutely, unless they have a Lithium specific
mode.
Kind regards, Stu
Sent from my iPhone
> On 29 Jun 2022, at 15:31, H. Ivan Haecker <hivanhaecker@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Three years ago I decided to equip my little C-85 powered aircraft with a B&C
starter and LiFe battery ( Shorai 18 Ah). No provision for charging onboard.
It worked great and would easily start the engine a dozen times before I would
charge it with an 800mA Battery Tender that was advertised as suitable for both
lead acid and LiFe batteries. It was never discharged to the point that it
failed to rapidly spin the engine. All went well until a few months ago when I
noticed that the battery became sluggish after only a few starts. Now its only
good for one start before it needs recharging. So the battery is now almost
useless. I had (of course!) hoped for a longer useful life. The big question is:
have I mismanaged the battery by recharging it only occasionally instead of
more often, or did I use an inappropriate charger, or just bad luck of the draw
on this particular battery? Thanks for any opinions.
>
> Ivan Haecker
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: LiFe Battery |
I'm not sure the 20% cut off number is accurate; I suspect that it is not.
But putting that aside, there is another way of looking at this--all
batteries have a limited capacity. Lead acid batteries will happily
discharge until they are dead or badly damaged Lithium batteries with a BMS
will stop discharging before they are ruined. How can this be a bad thing?
It's bad only if you are relying on the advertised capacity number to size
your battery. Bob has taught us all that we cannot rely on the advertised
capacity number, rather, we should do annual capacity checks to verify the
actual capacity. It's just a matter of factoring in BMS behavior when you
decide on the size battery you need.
Would it be nice if there was a switch you could throw to disable the BMS
low voltage protection in a real emergency? Sure! Is the lack of such a
switch a good reason to write off LiFe technology? Not in my opinion.
On Wed, Jun 29, 2022 at 6:00 AM <ashleysc@broadstripe.net> wrote:
>
> Hi Stu.
> The Battery Tender (charger) you mentioned is intended for LiFeO3
> batteries. I have one too. I have been through two Li FeO3 batteries. In
my
> case it appeared they didn't like the charging system on board the
> aircraft, even though the charging current went to zero soon after starti
ng
> the engine. I assumed it was not being overcharged, but don't really know
> what caused the problem. Now I have a much cheaper sealed lead acid
> battery, which I hope will be bombproof. Installed in the tail cone, rath
er
> than atop the firewall, it will also help with a slightly nose heavy
> condition. I have learned latterly that some LiFeO3 batteries will "turn
> themselves off," when they get down to a 20% charge. Not a good thing in
an
> aircraft.
> Cheers! Stu. Ashley
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stuart Hutchison" <stuart@stuarthutchison.com.au>
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2022 10:49:33 PM
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: LiFe Battery
>
> stuart@stuarthutchison.com.au>
>
> There is much misleading information out there suggesting chargers
> suitable for Lead Acid are also suitable for Lithium. Do they work? Yes.
Do
> they compromise Lithium longevity? Also yes, absolutely, unless they have
a
> Lithium specific mode.
>
> Kind regards, Stu
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On 29 Jun 2022, at 15:31, H. Ivan Haecker <hivanhaecker@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > =EF=BBThree years ago I decided to equip my little C-85 powered airc
raft with
> a B&C starter and LiFe battery ( Shorai 18 Ah). No provision for charging
> onboard. It worked great and would easily start the engine a dozen times
> before I would charge it with an 800mA Battery Tender that was advertised
> as suitable for both lead acid and LiFe batteries. It was never discharge
d
> to the point that it failed to rapidly spin the engine. All went well unt
il
> a few months ago when I noticed that the battery became sluggish after on
ly
> a few starts. Now it=99s only good for one start before it needs re
charging.
> So the battery is now almost useless. I had (of course!) hoped for a long
er
> useful life. The big question is: have I mismanaged the battery by
> recharging it only occasionally instead of more often, or did I use an
> inappropriate charger, or just bad luck of the draw on this particular
> battery? Thanks for any opinions.
> >
> > Ivan Haecker
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: LiFe Battery |
On Wed, Jun 29, 2022 at 12:25 AM H. Ivan Haecker <hivanhaecker@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Three years ago I decided to equip my little C-85 powered aircraft with a
> B&C starter and LiFe battery ( Shorai 18 Ah). No provision for charging
> onboard. It worked great and would easily start the engine a dozen times
> before I would charge it with an 800mA Battery Tender that was advertised
> as suitable for both lead acid and LiFe batteries. It was never discharge
d
> to the point that it failed to rapidly spin the engine. All went well unt
il
> a few months ago when I noticed that the battery became sluggish after on
ly
> a few starts. Now it=99s only good for one start before it needs re
charging.
> So the battery is now almost useless. I had (of course!) hoped for a long
er
> useful life. The big question is: have I mismanaged the battery by
> recharging it only occasionally instead of more often, or did I use an
> inappropriate charger, or just bad luck of the draw on this particular
> battery? Thanks for any opinions.
>
> Ivan Haecker
>
Could have been something as simple as a defective battery (atypical
lifespan). But if you were going 10-12 starts before recharging, that could
well have seriously stressed it. Most batteries like to be kept within a
range of charge states. Lithium might have a slightly wider range while
maintaining full output voltage, but repeatedly taking them to near full
discharge isn't healthy for them, either.
My personal choice is for *me* to be 5-10 lbs lighter than average, be
healthier, and keep the extra $150 in my bank account. ;-)
Charlie
Message 4
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| Subject: | Thermocouple wire extension |
As I redo my Revmaster engine with the burned stator I plan to incorporate thermocouples
to hopefully allow me to head off a repeat of the burned stator. In
the past on both the RV and the Onex I ran the full length of the suppllied thermocouple
wire and then connected to tefzel coated copper for the rest of the
run to the EIS using Faston connectors. The temperature read out for both planes
seems reasonable and accurate. Although it has never been checked using
boiling water. Now that I'm looking into thermocouples again I read that only
thermocouple wire should be used for extensions and copper wire should never
be used.
So, I am looking for some guidance. Is my prior approach totally faulty producing
meaningless temperature readings or are the practices I read about only required
for super accurate results and what I have done in the past good enough.
I will appreciate any opinions. Thanks.
Paul
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=507361#507361
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Thermocouple wire extension |
What follows assumes that you're using Type K thermocouples, which are made from
chromel and alumel wires.
You won't be getting dead accurate readings with the copper wire extensions. That
said, the amount of error is probably not huge and would be difficult to determine
without comparative measurements.
Your extension has created two additional dissimilar-metal junctions in the sensor
wires -- one alumel-copper, the other chromel-copper -- which will generate
opposing errors of different magnitude that the instrument isn't calibrated
for. The total error will depend on the temperature where those junctions are
located; the higher the temp, the greater the error.
The easiest and cheapest source of chromel-alumel wire to extend Type-K sensor
leads is to buy extra sensors on eBay or Amazon and cut off what you need. Just
be careful to match wire types in your extensions so you don't create additional
chromel-alumel junctions.
Whatever method you use to splice the extensions, it's important that the wires
are in intimate physical contact. They should be crushed against one another
and not depending on a third metal to interface between them.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=507362#507362
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: LiFe Battery |
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Thermocouple wire extension |
With regards extending the chromel/alumel, I have always twisted and
"silver soldered" the connections, and have had no issues. Crimped
connections are a second-best option
On 30/06/22 05:07 am, Eric Page wrote:
>
> What follows assumes that you're using Type K thermocouples, which are made from
chromel and alumel wires.
>
> You won't be getting dead accurate readings with the copper wire extensions.
That said, the amount of error is probably not huge and would be difficult to
determine without comparative measurements.
>
> Your extension has created two additional dissimilar-metal junctions in the sensor
wires -- one alumel-copper, the other chromel-copper -- which will generate
opposing errors of different magnitude that the instrument isn't calibrated
for. The total error will depend on the temperature where those junctions are
located; the higher the temp, the greater the error.
>
> The easiest and cheapest source of chromel-alumel wire to extend Type-K sensor
leads is to buy extra sensors on eBay or Amazon and cut off what you need.
Just be careful to match wire types in your extensions so you don't create additional
chromel-alumel junctions.
>
> Whatever method you use to splice the extensions, it's important that the wires
are in intimate physical contact. They should be crushed against one another
and not depending on a third metal to interface between them.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=507362#507362
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: LiFe Battery |
Yes, I did mean to write LliFePO4. And I do have it mounted on the engine
side of the firewall. I have seen others mounted in that position and
assumed (dangerous word) that the environment would be acceptable. When I
buy a replacement, I=99ll consider an Odyssey. But my gut feeling is
that I
was just unlucky and got a =9CFriday afternoon=9D battery. Too
many examples of
others having better luck with theirs.
Ivan Haecker
On Wed, Jun 29, 2022 at 11:55 PM Stuart Hutchison <
stuart@stuarthutchison.com.au> wrote:
> Good that the battery tender had a Lithium profile maybe the ba
ttery was
> ultimately a dud or less than expected quality. I assume by LiFe Ivan
> means LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate).
>
> Actually Ken, the same rated LiFePO4 battery will deliver 80% of its
> charge at a relatively flat Voltage profile before the BMS protects the
> battery, but the same rated Lead Acid can only be discharged to 50% befor
e
> charge is necessary or permanent damage can result. No matter what tech,
> we often get what we pay for, hence Odyssey Lead Acids have a good
> reputation and some LiFePO4s (like Invicta) do as well. Unsure if LiFePO
> degrades in high-heat conditions the same way Li-Ion does if so
, firewall
> forward wouldn=99t make much sense, but either way they have huge e
nergy
> density and can=99t be extinguished with a typical fire extinguishe
r (because
> the degrading cathode liberates oxygen inside the case), so there's safet
y
> issue to consider in that too.
>
> Kind regards, Stu
>
>
> On 30 Jun 2022, at 2:15 am, Ken Ryan <keninalaska@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm not sure the 20% cut off number is accurate; I suspect that it is not
.
> But putting that aside, there is another way of looking at this--all
> batteries have a limited capacity. Lead acid batteries will happily
> discharge until they are dead or badly damaged Lithium batteries with a B
MS
> will stop discharging before they are ruined. How can this be a bad thing
?
>
> It's bad only if you are relying on the advertised capacity number to siz
e
> your battery. Bob has taught us all that we cannot rely on the advertised
> capacity number, rather, we should do annual capacity checks to verify th
e
> actual capacity. It's just a matter of factoring in BMS behavior when you
> decide on the size battery you need.
>
> Would it be nice if there was a switch you could throw to disable the BMS
> low voltage protection in a real emergency? Sure! Is the lack of such a
> switch a good reason to write off LiFe technology? Not in my opinion.
>
> On Wed, Jun 29, 2022 at 6:00 AM <ashleysc@broadstripe.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi Stu.
>> The Battery Tender (charger) you mentioned is intended for LiFeO3
>> batteries. I have one too. I have been through two Li FeO3 batteries. In
my
>> case it appeared they didn't like the charging system on board the
>> aircraft, even though the charging current went to zero soon after start
ing
>> the engine. I assumed it was not being overcharged, but don't really kno
w
>> what caused the problem. Now I have a much cheaper sealed lead acid
>> battery, which I hope will be bombproof. Installed in the tail cone, rat
her
>> than atop the firewall, it will also help with a slightly nose heavy
>> condition. I have learned latterly that some LiFeO3 batteries will "turn
>> themselves off," when they get down to a 20% charge. Not a good thing in
an
>> aircraft.
>> Cheers! Stu. Ashley
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Stuart Hutchison" <stuart@stuarthutchison.com.au>
>> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2022 10:49:33 PM
>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: LiFe Battery
>>
>> stuart@stuarthutchison.com.au>
>>
>> There is much misleading information out there suggesting chargers
>> suitable for Lead Acid are also suitable for Lithium. Do they work? Yes.
Do
>> they compromise Lithium longevity? Also yes, absolutely, unless they hav
e a
>> Lithium specific mode.
>>
>> Kind regards, Stu
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> > On 29 Jun 2022, at 15:31, H. Ivan Haecker <hivanhaecker@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > =EF=BBThree years ago I decided to equip my little C-85 powered air
craft
>> with a B&C starter and LiFe battery ( Shorai 18 Ah). No provision for
>> charging onboard. It worked great and would easily start the engine a do
zen
>> times before I would charge it with an 800mA Battery Tender that was
>> advertised as suitable for both lead acid and LiFe batteries. It was nev
er
>> discharged to the point that it failed to rapidly spin the engine. All w
ent
>> well until a few months ago when I noticed that the battery became slugg
ish
>> after only a few starts. Now it=99s only good for one start before
it needs
>> recharging. So the battery is now almost useless. I had (of course!) hop
ed
>> for a longer useful life. The big question is: have I mismanaged the
>> battery by recharging it only occasionally instead of more often, or did
I
>> use an inappropriate charger, or just bad luck of the draw on this
>> particular battery? Thanks for any opinions.
>> >
>> > Ivan Haecker
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> -
>> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>> ==========
>> FORUMS -
>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> WIKI -
>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> ="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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