Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:33 AM - Re: ULPower electrical system (N43YX)
2. 05:22 AM - Re: ULPower electrical system (user9253)
3. 05:38 AM - Re: ULPower electrical system (user9253)
4. 06:14 AM - Re: Forest of tabs - corrosion question (Charlie England)
5. 07:08 AM - Re: ULPower electrical system (Eric Page)
6. 07:32 AM - Re: Forest of tabs - corrosion question (Eric Page)
7. 07:41 AM - Re: ULPower electrical system (N43YX)
8. 07:48 AM - Re: Re: ULPower electrical system (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 08:24 AM - Re: Forest of tabs - corrosion question (C&K)
10. 09:26 AM - Re: Forest of tabs - corrosion question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 10:26 AM - Re: Re: ULPower electrical system (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 10:34 AM - Re: ULPower electrical system (user9253)
13. 11:09 AM - Re: ULPower electrical system (N43YX)
14. 02:38 PM - Re: ULPower electrical system (user9253)
15. 03:29 PM - Re: Re: ULPower electrical system (C&K)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: ULPower electrical system |
I am aware of at least two people that wired it as you described, Eric. I guess
a downside (if I am understanding correctly) of this arrangement would be that
you wouldn't want to manually disconnect the alternator via the switch for
fear of harming the regulator, but I can't see why you would want to do that anyway
unless there was a problem. With two relays wired prior to the regulator,
you would be able to shut it down manually without harming the regulator,
correct?
Also, the B&C OV kit is only rated for 30 amps. I found these that are rated for
60 A. Would this work? I'm assuming they can be mounted FWF.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=507849#507849
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/60a_relay_spdt_155.pdf
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| Subject: | Re: ULPower electrical system |
I thought about using just 2 relays. But what if the dynamo windings are
connected in "Y" with the center grounded? Or is that highly unlikely?
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=507850#507850
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| Subject: | Re: ULPower electrical system |
> If the OVP sensor trips, then isn't it safe to assume that the regulator has
already failed?
Could be, but Not necessarily. Depending on the the aircraft wiring, there could
be resistance causing a voltage drop that
the regulator interprets as low system voltage. Thus the regulator would increase
output voltage and cause an overvoltage event.
That problem can be minimized by not putting a load on the voltage sense wire.
But it has happened.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=507851#507851
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| Subject: | Re: Forest of tabs - corrosion question |
On 9/6/2022 5:43 PM, heedh23 wrote:
>
> Recently on one of the Vans facebook groups, there was a picture of a homemade
forest of tabs that another builder made for their electrical system. This
led to a discussion on whether the aluminum rivets holding the tabs onto the copper
plate would corrode, whether brass rivets were necessary, etc.
>
> My question is this - if aluminum "sacrifices" itself when in contact with copper
due to galvanic corrosion, why doesn't the aluminum sheet/structure that
contacts a forest of tabs corrode? Is it the presumed lack of an electrolyte?
Is it a requirement to use some magic unobtanium alloy of copper?
>
> Thanks in advance for the education.
> -Ed
As Bob & others said, riveting is far from optimal for electrical
connections. It's pretty simple to just 'flow solder' the tabs to the
plate by using a propane torch under the plate while adding solder to
the tab/plate intersection.
Charlie
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: ULPower electrical system |
N43YX wrote:
> With two relays wired prior to the regulator, you would be able to shut it down
manually without harming the regulator, correct?
It sure sounds that way.
N43YX wrote:
> Also, the B&C OV kit is only rated for 30 amps. I found these that are rated
for 60 A. Would this work? I'm assuming they can be mounted FWF.
Yep, those would work. That sort of relay is mounted in vehicle engine bays all
the time. The datasheet says they're rated up to 125C (257F). Be sure to order
them with a mounting tab on the back.
More thinking out loud... I'll bet that a 30A relay would be more than sufficient
since the alternator's 50A max output would be evenly split across the three
phase wires (~17A per wire). Bob, am I out to lunch here?
user9253 wrote:
> ...what if the dynamo windings are connected in "Y" with the center grounded?
Or is that highly unlikely?
I'll defer to Bob on this one; I don't know if there are any alternators or stators
wired in wye configuration.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=507853#507853
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| Subject: | Re: Forest of tabs - corrosion question |
I built mine by setting a brass plate on top of a burner on my gas cooktop. Then
I smeared solder paste on the bottom of several 6-way quick-connect tabs and
placed them where I wanted them on the plate. Finally, I turned the burner
on low and waited for the solder paste to reflow. Photo attached.
If you do it this way, turn the hood fan on high (there's some smoke) and have
some sort of heatproof tool handy to nudge the tabs into the desired position
as the assembly cools, as they'll move a bit when the paste melts.
I got the brass plate for cheap on eBay and cut it to size. Here's one seller...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/293905310788
The quick-connect tabs are in stock at Digi-Key in 4-way, 6-way and 10-way versions...
4-way: https://www.digikey.com/short/q3pjw0cw
6-way: https://www.digikey.com/short/83hdh0j2
10-way: https://www.digikey.com/short/5br0n7fv
Solder paste is available pretty cheaply on eBay (or you can just feed normal solder
wire into the joints once the plate is hot). Here are a couple of U.S.
sellers in the $7 range...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/384953664130
http://www.ebay.com/itm/313843925100
Be careful that you don't accidentally buy paste flux; eBay sellers frequently
mix up search terms in their listing titles and the packaging is very similar.
Finally, I got brass hardware at Home Depot for mounting it to the firewall and
securing the negative cable on the engine side.
1/4-20 x 3" bolt: https://www.homedepot.com/p/204274747
1/4-20 hex nuts: https://www.homedepot.com/p/204274130
1/4" flat washers: https://www.homedepot.com/p/204780701
1/4" stainless lock washers: https://www.homedepot.com/p/204276509
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=507854#507854
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/forest_of_tabs_ground_block_200.jpg
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: ULPower electrical system |
You guys are great! Thanks for the help.
I think I'll go with the two relays wired before the R/R, so I can have manual
control of shutting off the alternator If I could use the 30 A relays from the
B&C kit, that would be even better. I'd like to hear Bob's thoughts, too.
One more question...how would I wire TWO relays with the B&C overvoltage sensor.
I have looked everywhere I can think and I can't see that documented anywhere.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=507855#507855
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| Subject: | Re: ULPower electrical system |
>More thinking out loud... I'll bet that a 30A relay would be more
>than sufficient since the alternator's 50A max output would be
>evenly split across the three phase wires (~17A per wire). Bob, am
>I out to lunch here?
>
>
>user9253 wrote:
> > ...what if the dynamo windings are connected in "Y" with the
> center grounded? Or is that highly unlikely?
>
>I'll defer to Bob on this one; I don't know if there are any
>alternators or stators wired in wye configuration.
There are some legacy products being offered as
spares which are y-wound, but I'm not aware of
any modern y-wound devices. In any case, y-wound never
grounds the center. Some designs bring that
node out as a AUX terminal . . . this is the connection
that used to drive the "S" terminal on the legacy
electro-mechanical regulators.
Current production B36 and B55 alternators at
Beech still have an AUX terminal but it hasn't
be used in decades.
30A relays are plenty big . . . especially
given the fact that they're switching AC
current.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
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| Subject: | Re: Forest of tabs - corrosion question |
Steel pop rivets and solder on the tabs.
No corrosion at tabs or on aluminum where it is bolted to structure
after 17 years in an open T hangar.
Ken
On 08-Sep.-22 9:14 a.m., Charlie England wrote:
> <ceengland7@gmail.com>
>
> On 9/6/2022 5:43 PM, heedh23 wrote:
>>
>> Recently on one of the Vans facebook groups, there was a picture of a
>> homemade forest of tabs that another builder made for their
>> electrical system. This led to a discussion on whether the aluminum
>> rivets holding the tabs onto the copper plate would corrode, whether
>> brass rivets were necessary, etc.
>>
>> My question is this - if aluminum "sacrifices" itself when in contact
>> with copper due to galvanic corrosion, why doesn't the aluminum
>> sheet/structure that contacts a forest of tabs corrode? Is it the
>> presumed lack of an electrolyte? Is it a requirement to use some
>> magic unobtanium alloy of copper?
>>
>> Thanks in advance for the education.
>> -Ed
> As Bob & others said, riveting is far from optimal for electrical
> connections. It's pretty simple to just 'flow solder' the tabs to the
> plate by using a propane torch under the plate while adding solder to
> the tab/plate intersection.
>
> Charlie
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Forest of tabs - corrosion question |
At 10:23 AM 9/8/2022, you wrote:
>
>Steel pop rivets and solder on the tabs.
>No corrosion at tabs or on aluminum where it is bolted to structure
>after 17 years in an open T hangar.
>Ken
Good data point. "Fixtured" with rivets
before soldering. Thanks!
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
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| Subject: | Re: ULPower electrical system |
>
>
>One more question...how would I wire TWO relays with the B&C
>overvoltage sensor. I have looked everywhere I can think and I
>can't see that documented anywhere.
>
>
See attached
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
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| Subject: | Re: ULPower electrical system |
> One more question...how would I wire TWO relays with the B&C overvoltage sensor.
> I have looked everywhere I can think and I can't see that documented anywhere.
If you are using the original B&C over voltage device that is shown on Bob's Z-16,
then wire according to Z-16.
It doesn't matter if there are one or two or three relays. They are wired in
parallel and function as a single component. One wire controls all.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=507860#507860
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| Subject: | Re: ULPower electrical system |
Thank you all very much. I appreciate it. The diagram was exactly what I was
looking for.
This is the B&C OV kit I was planning on:
https://www.aircraftspruce.ca/catalog/eppages/08-00658.php?clickkey=8339
I'd need to order another relay.
One other question regarding buss design. I am using a single ECU and dual redundant
fuel pumps. Per the Z diagrams, my plan is to have the ECU and at least
one fuel pump powered from the battery buss. I am only planning on a single
ECU but as the switch and wiring would be a possible single point-of-failure,
I am considering wiring a parallel switch providing an "alternate feed" to the
ECU.
Are there any potential problems with this? From which buss should I power the
AUX feed to the ECU and the second fuel pump? I can't imagine a battery buss
failure would be a common event, but would it be better to power it from the
endurance buss?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=507861#507861
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| Subject: | Re: ULPower electrical system |
You might consider combining features from 2 or more Z figures.
For instance, use Z-16, but add the engine bus from Z-101B.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z101B.pdf
The engine circuitry is drawn in pink. Using 2 switches wired in parallel is feasible.
Another option is to use a single double pole switch with the contacts wired in
parallel.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=507862#507862
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: ULPower electrical system |
I'd question the benefit of a double pole switch.
Still subject to a mechanical switch failure and also no warning if one
pole has failed.
Two switches with separate fuses would add more redundancy although I'm
not sure it adds much value with a single ecu unless there are two power
sources.
Ken
On 08-Sep.-22 5:38 p.m., user9253 wrote:
>
> You might consider combining features from 2 or more Z figures.
> For instance, use Z-16, but add the engine bus from Z-101B.
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z101B.pdf
> The engine circuitry is drawn in pink. Using 2 switches wired in parallel is
feasible.
> Another option is to use a single double pole switch with the contacts wired
in parallel.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=507862#507862
>
>
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