Today's Message Index:
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1. 06:01 AM - Re: Final Elect. System Review (bcone1381)
2. 06:18 AM - Re: Falco (Roger & Jean)
3. 07:48 AM - Re: Final Elect. System Review (user9253)
4. 12:45 PM - Re: Final Elect. System Review (bcone1381)
5. 03:29 PM - Re: Final Elect. System Review (johnbright)
6. 05:29 PM - Re: Final Elect. System Review (bcone1381)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Final Elect. System Review |
user9253 wrote:
> In case of smoke in the cockpit or in case of an imminent forced landing, the
pilot should have the ability to shut off all electrical power as close to the
source(s) as possible. Does your design meet that objective? Relays can be
used for remote control.
> -
> The surefly electronic ignition is powered by the battery bus and by the aux
bus. Are those two sources isolated with diodes? If not, the aux bus will always
be powered by the battery.
> -
> Long wires do not necessary have to be protected by a fuse or circuit breaker
if physically protected against shorting. Use your best judgement.
User 9253, Thanks for this exercise! I work alone. I am an EAB builder. A is
for Amateur. My design skills are not good and you help me think. The Z101
is so so helpful.
1) Re: Shut off power close to the source. It does not meet that objective and
I see that a relay would. How do we balance that objective with the objective
of simplicity of a switch on a low Amp circuit? My memory says that Bob in
the past said 5A was the threshold. What is Industry Best Practice...a relay
or switch?
2) Re Surefly Ignition Module (SIM): I am installing two SIM's. The L. SIM source
is the Battery Bus, the R. SIM source from the Aux Bus. Good Catch. I
will update my diagrams. Does this satisfy your concern? I see no other bus
bus power issues.
3) Thanks!
Like I said, you help me think. If I explain my thinking it will not give me an
industry best practice that experts know. Its a debate. My thinking is not
an Industry Best Practice without "Your thinking can be improved, here is my
concern, do it this way because...."
--------
Brooks Cone
Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508942#508942
Message 2
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Sent from Mail for Windows
From: Charlie England
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2022 7:50 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Falco
On 11/16/2022 6:54 PM, Roger & Jean wrote:
Hi Listers,
=C2-
I have been on this list for many great years!=C2- Everyone on here has b
een so very willing to help with any problems presented, great exchange of
ideas.=C2- I especially want to say Thanks to Bob for sharing his vast ex
perience and knowledge of aircraft and lots of other electrics.=C2- I hav
e a copy of his Bible, the Aeroelectric Connection, which I have referred t
o on many occasions.
=C2-
During these years I have also been in the process of crafting a plans buil
t, all wood construction, Falco, which is now completed and has its Airwort
hiness Certificate, ready to fly.=C2- Sadly, after all the years of build
ing and looking forward to flying my beautiful Falco, the years have passed
and I will be 80 years old my next birthday, and I don=99t feel shar
p enough mentally and physically to fly.=C2- So I have not flown since th
e Falco was completed.=C2- As much as I hate to say this, My Falco is up
for sale.=C2- If anyone on the list or anyone you know might be intereste
d, please contact me for further details at rnjcurtis@charter.net. Pictures
attached.
=C2-
Thanks for your interest,
=C2-
Roger
It's a shame to put in all that work, and never get to fly it. Have you con
sidered getting a friend to fly off the test time, and then fly with them a
s PIC, at least for a while, before selling? I have a friend who's at least
a year or two (I've lost track) past 95, and he just sold his plane less t
han a year ago. He was flying with a qualified PIC for probably a decade be
fore he finally sold it.
If that won't work and you really have to sell, you should list all the spe
cifics about the plane like engine, empty/gross weights, etc, and where it'
s located, at least a ballpark asking price, etc. I think you can still lis
t stuff on Barnstormers.com for free, if you don't try to add pictures. Not
terribly expensive even for pics, etc.
Good luck, and I hope you can get to fly it some before selling.
Charlie
Thanks for the advice! I have posted it once on Barnstormers and am consid
ering reposting. I have recently decided to give up flying, have had my li
cense since 1978, so I guess I have had enough time to pursue aviation.
The Falco has an alternative GM marine engine, which turns off some people
in the aviation community. I have built in redundancy in the electrical sy
stem using Bob=99s dual battery system as a reference. The engine is
a very reliable liquid cooled power plant. Jess Myers of Belted Air Power
in Las Vegas did a bunch of similar engine mods with great success.
Enough for now, since this is not an aircraft sales site. If you are intere
sted please contact me directly.
Roger
Virus-free.www.avast.com
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Final Elect. System Review |
Sometimes there is no right or wrong answer, but rather a matter of personal preference.
I prefer simplicity: Just one bus. But to each his own.
What is best practice, a relay controlled by a small switch or just a switch?
There is no right or wrong answer. You will have to decide. Consider the advantages
and disadvantages. If the relay fails, can you continue to fly safely?
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508945#508945
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Final Elect. System Review |
8253;
I think of Art .... I see now we are playing with "Industrial Arts." Art has
many answers. Math is not art, is foundational for design, but it has one only
one right answer. You helped me see the Art side of electrical system design.
--------
Brooks Cone
Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508948#508948
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Final Elect. System Review |
[quote="bcone1381"]
user9253 wrote:
> ... 1) Re: Shut off power close to the source. It does not meet that objective
and I see that a relay would... My memory says that Bob in the past said 5A
was the threshold..."
Ref FAR 23.1361 "Master Switch Arrangement". FAR 23.1361 calls for protective device
of 5A or less but Bob Nuckolls' advice is to allow 7-1/2 A fuses since fuses
are faster than breakers, that's why the largest fuse you see on the battery
bus in Z schematics is 7-1/2A.
https://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part23-1361-FAR.shtml
BTW, fuses are normally sized (max load) / (0.75) = fuse rating. Max load on a
7-1/2A fuse should be 5.6A.
As you can see, a 23A MIDI fuse does not meet FAR23.1361. Also it is considered
bad practice to put two fuses in series even though the 10A fuses on your aux
bus are smaller than a MIDI 23.
As mentioned, FAR 23.1361 is for fire-in-the-cockpit and off-field landing scenarios
but it's also for service scenario, that's why auto service manuals say
first thing disconnect the battery negative terminal.
Thoughts:
Z101 has the backup alternator B lead on the battery but you show it on the aux
bus. Not necessarily a bad thing but IMO it's not correct to call it Z101.
Do you choose the PM backup alternator because it self-starts with no battery present?
FYI there is the Monkworkz PM vacuum pad alternator available now that
makes 30A at 1800 Lycoming RPM (its B lead cannot be connected directly to the
battery because it presents a ~30mA passive load).
There's room for opinion but I would put a 20A or 40A automotive relay (like B&C
sells) in the aux bus feed.
I can't imagine why the Surefly fuse on the battery bus can't be 7-1/2A. The four-cylinder
Surefly draws 0.7 +/- 0.2A per the IM. OTOH the Surefly is proxim
to the battery bus so the 10A fuse could be argued to meet FAR 23.1361.
--------
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Z-101 single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright@yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=1u6GeZo6pmBWsKykLNVQMvu4o1VEVyP4K
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508949#508949
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Final Elect. System Review |
FAR23.1361 Thanks for this reference. I will be adding the Solenoid now.
I see my switch is not adjacent to the bus, whereas a solenoid is and it will eliminate
the Midi Fuse.
Fuse size. Ill search out more feedback regarding circuit protection. I refer
often to AC 43.13 table 11-3 titled DC Wire and Circuit Protection when manufacturers
instructions are not available.
Surefly Instructions call out 14 AWG with 10A circuit protection but I find no
fault in your assessment.
My choice is the SD-8 is due to me having it on hand. I've read about the Monkworkz
and think is numbers are impressive. I think it will be the GO TO alternator
for EAB. But the SD-8 is enough for my backup, is very light weight and
may be one of the most proven reliable alternators on the market. The Monkworkz
is new and Its hard to get good data on component failure rates.
--------
Brooks Cone
Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508950#508950
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