Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:21 AM - Re: SD-8 Self Exciting via Z25L (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 06:32 AM - Re: Intermittent Charging (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 08:05 AM - Re: Narco ID-825 indicator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 11:21 AM - Re: Intermittent Charging (H. Ivan Haecker)
5. 11:49 AM - Re: Intermittent Charging (edward Clegg)
6. 06:52 PM - Re: Intermittent Charging (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 07:19 PM - Re: Intermittent Charging (user9253)
8. 07:21 PM - Re: Intermittent Charging (H. Ivan Haecker)
9. 07:54 PM - Re: Re: Intermittent Charging (H. Ivan Haecker)
10. 08:06 PM - Re: Intermittent Charging (user9253)
11. 08:09 PM - Re: Intermittent Charging (user9253)
12. 09:23 PM - Re: Re: Intermittent Charging (H. Ivan Haecker)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: SD-8 Self Exciting via Z25L |
At 06:28 PM 2/26/2023, you wrote:
>
>I am setting up the regulator and components from Z25L for a self
>exciting SD-8 to support backup power for my second ignition and
>backup power for the aircraft E-Bus.
>
>One option is to screw this stuff to an Aluminum plate and let it
>hang out in the air - another is to 3D print an enclosure for
>everything. Question is how much heat do I have to deal with and
>what's the fire risk of these components if I have it running full
>tilt (not likely in my configuration, but...)
>
>I'm not seeing more than a watt from the resistors if my math is
>right. How much heat from the regulator and diode bridge?
This isn't a 'fire risk' . . . it's a risk of
regulator failure. The SD-8 stock regulator is
a 4-component, bridge rectifier, SERIES switch
configuration that rejects something on the order
of 30 watts at full load.
The power-path components depend on thermal
conductivity of the potting compound for heat
rejection. The rectifier/regulator's service
life is tied to optimizing thermal management.
I've been considering an instrumented
thermal study on this device but that's
pretty far down on the to-do list right
now.
B&C installation instructions should be
followed . . . when in doubt, calling
B&C directly with such questions is a far
more reliable than consulting folks
who have no personal knowledge of the
product construction and performance.
They're really nice and helpful folks
who enjoy hearing from their customers.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Intermittent Charging |
At 12:35 PM 2/26/2023, you wrote:
>Something is amiss with my charging system. Upon
>initial start, normal charging voltage occurs. A
>few minutes into flight, the voltage has dropped
>to battery only. Upon landing, it=99s back up to
>normal charging voltage. This has occurred on
>the last three flights. I can=99t find any
>obvious loose connections and a voltage check
>with a VOM in flight shows the shipboard volt
>meter is accurate. So I suppose it is either an
>alternator or external regulator (ford type)
>problem. Is there a way in flight to determine
>which is the culprit? Maybe check the output
>voltage from the field terminal to the
>alternator while in flight? Any advice=C2 would be appreciated.
There is . . .
Bring a temporary connection from the alternator
or regulator's field terminal into the cockpit
and measure regulator's output voltage during
normal/abnormal ops.
Voltage should be on the order of 1-4 volts
in normal, hi-rpm operations and never
zero.
Alternatively, fabricate a test fixture thusly . . .
https://tinyurl.com/2z2ww9gl
Disconnect alternator from the ship's regulator
and make a temporary installation of this
test fixture to the alternator. This creates
a system that comes up with engine start and
is not controllable from the cockpit, but it
bypasses a lot of potential system trouble
spots.
Given your description of the intermittent
behavior, I'd bet that it's the alternator
but 'divide and conquer' will help you
deduce the facts.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Narco ID-825 indicator |
At 04:00 PM 2/26/2023, you wrote:
>
>I happen to have a Narco ID-825 indicator that can display
>VOR/LOC/Glideslope. I can't find and technical info on it. Can
>anyone tell me if this indicator contains an internal VOR/LOC
>"converter". My KX165 nav/com with glideslope has its own converter
>and therefore needs an indicator without the converter. It would be
>great if I can use the ID-825 with the KX-165.
Information I can find on the ID825 suggests
that the ILS display consists of generic
cross-pointers, integrity flag and VOR
resolver.
No 'active electronics' included . . .
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Intermittent Charging |
Another test flight today produced some interesting results. I fabricated a
tap into the field wire that runs from the regulator to the alternator. I
placed a 1k resistor in the tap wire and ran the wire to an analog VOM in
the cockpit. A ground wire from the VOM was ran to the forest of tabs
behind the panel (where the regulator is grounded). At idle rpm, the panel
mounted volt meter reads ~ 14.5V and the VOM test circuit reads about 8
volts. As power reaches about 1900 rpm, the panel volt meter begins to fall
off toward battery voltage and the tapped field voltage on the analog VOM
begins to fall off toward 3-4 volts. The same situation was observed in
flight. Does this indicate a regulator problem or an alternator problem?
I suppose my next test should be the one the Bob proposed this morning, but
I will have to obtain another regulator to do that test.
Ivan Haecker
On Tue, Feb 28, 2023 at 9:04 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 12:35 PM 2/26/2023, you wrote:
>
> Something is amiss with my charging system. Upon initial start, normal
> charging voltage occurs. A few minutes into flight, the voltage has dropp
ed
> to battery only. Upon landing, it=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s back up to nor
mal charging voltage.
> This has occurred on the last three flights. I can=C3=A2=82=AC=84
=A2t find any obvious
> loose connections and a voltage check with a VOM in flight shows the
> shipboard volt meter is accurate. So I suppose it is either an alternator
> or external regulator (ford type) problem. Is there a way in flight to
> determine which is the culprit? Maybe check the output voltage from the
> field terminal to the alternator while in flight? Any advice=C3=82 would
be
> appreciated.
>
>
> There is . . .
>
> Bring a temporary connection from the alternator
> or regulator's field terminal into the cockpit
> and measure regulator's output voltage during
> normal/abnormal ops.
>
> Voltage should be on the order of 1-4 volts
> in normal, hi-rpm operations and never
> zero.
>
> Alternatively, fabricate a test fixture thusly . . .
>
> https://tinyurl.com/2z2ww9gl
>
> Disconnect alternator from the ship's regulator
> and make a temporary installation of this
> test fixture to the alternator. This creates
> a system that comes up with engine start and
> is not controllable from the cockpit, but it
> bypasses a lot of potential system trouble
> spots.
>
> Given your description of the intermittent
> behavior, I'd bet that it's the alternator
> but 'divide and conquer' will help you
> deduce the facts.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
> survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
> out of that stuff?"
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Intermittent Charging |
I had a similar problem last year and it was two broken stator wires. Wires
were intermittently touching causing, on again off again.
Ed
On Tue, Feb 28, 2023 at 2:24=AFPM H. Ivan Haecker <hivanhaecker@gmail
.com>
wrote:
> Another test flight today produced some interesting results. I fabricated
> a tap into the field wire that runs from the regulator to the alternator.
I
> placed a 1k resistor in the tap wire and ran the wire to an analog VOM in
> the cockpit. A ground wire from the VOM was ran to the forest of tabs
> behind the panel (where the regulator is grounded). At idle rpm, the pane
l
> mounted volt meter reads ~ 14.5V and the VOM test circuit reads about 8
> volts. As power reaches about 1900 rpm, the panel volt meter begins to fa
ll
> off toward battery voltage and the tapped field voltage on the analog VOM
> begins to fall off toward 3-4 volts. The same situation was observed in
> flight. Does this indicate a regulator problem or an alternator problem?
>
> I suppose my next test should be the one the Bob proposed this morning,
> but I will have to obtain another regulator to do that test.
> Ivan Haecker
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 28, 2023 at 9:04 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
>> At 12:35 PM 2/26/2023, you wrote:
>>
>> Something is amiss with my charging system. Upon initial start, normal
>> charging voltage occurs. A few minutes into flight, the voltage has drop
ped
>> to battery only. Upon landing, it=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s back up to no
rmal charging voltage.
>> This has occurred on the last three flights. I can=C3=A2=82=AC=84
=A2t find any obvious
>> loose connections and a voltage check with a VOM in flight shows the
>> shipboard volt meter is accurate. So I suppose it is either an alternato
r
>> or external regulator (ford type) problem. Is there a way in flight to
>> determine which is the culprit? Maybe check the output voltage from the
>> field terminal to the alternator while in flight? Any advice=C3=82 would
be
>> appreciated.
>>
>>
>> There is . . .
>>
>> Bring a temporary connection from the alternator
>> or regulator's field terminal into the cockpit
>> and measure regulator's output voltage during
>> normal/abnormal ops.
>>
>> Voltage should be on the order of 1-4 volts
>> in normal, hi-rpm operations and never
>> zero.
>>
>> Alternatively, fabricate a test fixture thusly . . .
>>
>> https://tinyurl.com/2z2ww9gl
>>
>> Disconnect alternator from the ship's regulator
>> and make a temporary installation of this
>> test fixture to the alternator. This creates
>> a system that comes up with engine start and
>> is not controllable from the cockpit, but it
>> bypasses a lot of potential system trouble
>> spots.
>>
>> Given your description of the intermittent
>> behavior, I'd bet that it's the alternator
>> but 'divide and conquer' will help you
>> deduce the facts.
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>> Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
>> survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
>> out of that stuff?"
>>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Intermittent Charging |
At 01:20 PM 2/28/2023, you wrote:
>Another test flight today produced some interesting results. I
>fabricated a tap into the field wire that runs from the regulator to
>the alternator. I placed a 1k resistor in the tap wire and ran the
>wire to an analog VOM in the cockpit. A ground wire from the VOM was
>ran to the forest of tabs behind the panel (where the regulator is
>grounded). At idle rpm, the panel mounted volt meter reads ~ 14.5V
>and the VOM test circuit reads about 8 volts. As power reaches about
>1900 rpm, the panel volt meter begins to fall off toward battery
>voltage and the tapped field voltage on the analog VOM begins to
>fall off toward 3-4 volts. The same situation was observed in
>flight. Does this indicate a regulator problem or an alternator problem?
No . . . the voltage readings you're seeing are a bit
polluted as a consequence of the tiny current draw
by the analog voltameter. They are, nonetheless, significant.
At low RPM the alternator may not be able to bring the
bus up to normal set-point. It's not uncommon to see
field voltages on the order of 10 volts or more at
ramp idle.
At in-flight RPMs, the regulator REDUCES field
voltage so as to keep the alternator's output at
the designed output voltage. At cruise RPM
and light loads, I've see voltages on the order
of 1 volt at the field.
This is what I would expect.
You state that as RPM goes up, panel voltmeter
shows a bus voltage reduction down to battery
voltage? Something on the order of 12.5 volts?
But the field voltage goes down also?
What kind of regulator do you have. What airplane
are we talking about?
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Intermittent Charging |
Repeat the test, but instead of measuring field voltage, measure field current
while monitoring electrical system voltage.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=510303#510303
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Intermittent Charging |
Yes, as the engine rpm goes up, field voltage begins to go down and the
panel voltmeter goes down to battery voltage (12.5v). At idle, the field
voltage goes up and the panel voltage in turn rises back to ~14.5v. The
plane is an rv-4 which I=99ve been flying for 31 yrs. The regulator i
s a NAPA
ford type (VR 440) that has been in service for 7 yrs. The alternator is an
Auto Zone #14184 (I think 30 amp or so), and it has been in service 14 yrs.
Also I have lately noticed a whine in the radio audio that changes with
rpm. I don=99t know if that is related to my problem or not.
Ivan Haecker
On Tue, Feb 28, 2023 at 8:54 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 01:20 PM 2/28/2023, you wrote:
>
> Another test flight today produced some interesting results. I fabricated
> a tap into the field wire that runs from the regulator to the alternator.
I
> placed a 1k resistor in the tap wire and ran the wire to an analog VOM in
> the cockpit. A ground wire from the VOM was ran to the forest of tabs
> behind the panel (where the regulator is grounded). At idle rpm, the pane
l
> mounted volt meter reads ~ 14.5V and the VOM test circuit reads about 8
> volts. As power reaches about 1900 rpm, the panel volt meter begins to fa
ll
> off toward battery voltage and the tapped field voltage on the analog VOM
> begins to fall off toward 3-4 volts. The same situation was observed in
> flight. Does this indicate a regulator problem or an alternator problem?
>
>
> No . . . the voltage readings you're seeing are a bit
> polluted as a consequence of the tiny current draw
> by the analog voltameter. They are, nonetheless, significant.
>
> At low RPM the alternator may not be able to bring the
> bus up to normal set-point. It's not uncommon to see
> field voltages on the order of 10 volts or more at
> ramp idle.
>
> At in-flight RPMs, the regulator REDUCES field
> voltage so as to keep the alternator's output at
> the designed output voltage. At cruise RPM
> and light loads, I've see voltages on the order
> of 1 volt at the field.
>
> This is what I would expect.
>
> You state that as RPM goes up, panel voltmeter
> shows a bus voltage reduction down to battery
> voltage? Something on the order of 12.5 volts?
> But the field voltage goes down also?
>
> What kind of regulator do you have. What airplane
> are we talking about?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
> survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
> out of that stuff?"
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Intermittent Charging |
That would have to wait as I don=99t have an ammeter in my plane. But
it
might be worthwhile to get one as a diagnostic tool. It would have to
something =9Cportable=9D as I have no room in my panel.
Ivan Haecker
On Tue, Feb 28, 2023 at 9:34 PM user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Repeat the test, but instead of measuring field voltage, measure field
> current while monitoring electrical system voltage.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=510303#510303
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Intermittent Charging |
Alternator whine? Measure the AC voltage on the main bus.
If alternator output has an AC component of 1 volt or more, then a diode is bad.
Some mechanics say 1/2 volt AC or more means a bad diode.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=510306#510306
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Intermittent Charging |
Most digital multimeters have an ammeter function.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=510307#510307
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| Subject: | Re: Intermittent Charging |
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