Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:34 AM - Re: WAGO Connectors in OBAM Aircraft? (Matthew S. Whiting)
2. 06:01 AM - Re: WAGO Connectors in OBAM Aircraft? (Tim Olson)
3. 06:59 AM - Re: WAGO Connectors in OBAM Aircraft? (Christopher Cee Stone)
4. 07:57 AM - Re: WAGO Connectors in OBAM Aircraft? (Matthew S. Whiting)
5. 09:43 AM - Re: WAGO Connectors in OBAM Aircraft? (Werner Schneider)
6. 06:15 PM - Re: WAGO Connectors in OBAM Aircraft? (Eric Page)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: WAGO Connectors in OBAM Aircraft? |
Ive wondered the same, but building wiring is a fair bit different than auto/aviation
wiring. Wire nuts are used a lot in American homes, but you dont see them
in cars. The main reason is that cars tend to move and vibrate a lot and
homes generally dont (earthquakes being the exception). Wire nuts wont take sustained
vibration. Wago connectors may withstand vibration, but I doubt they
have been tested for that. I am not aware of any auto maker, even in Europe,
that uses Wago connectors in a car or truck. If I did, I would be much more
inclined to use one in an airplane.
Having said that, if you airplane is an experimental, then you can use them if
you wish and let us know how they work out. If the toggle handle will stay closed
after a few hundred hours of vibration, then all is probably fine.
Matt
Sent from my iPad
> On Mar 9, 2023, at 8:30 PM, Ron Cox <flyboyron@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Anyone have an opinion (preferably with some personal experience) about using
WAGO connectors on OBAM aircraft?
>
> Theyre UL certified now for higher voltage work, but Im wondering if they might
be a safe and convenient solution for some of those connections in an aircraft
that may need to be disconnected at some point in the future. Seems like they
might be a good alternative for things that need multiple connections to one
point (Nav lights, etc.)
>
> I know some of us are very resistant to anything new, but these things have been
used for decades in Europe, and I wondered if anyone has any reason one might
not want to use them in low amperage connections, as most of our are.
>
> Theyre rated at 20Amps, and Ive seen them tested online at 60 without causing
any temp rise high enough to concern me.
>
> What do you all think?
>
> Ron
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: WAGO Connectors in OBAM Aircraft? |
My take is a little different. I think just because we are OBAM doesn't mean we
shouldn't try to stick with standards approved components. There are some exceptions
when we may be able to do things to an even higher standard, but for
the most part I want my plane to be at or above the standards used for certified
planes, and I'd be wary of connectors that aren't typically used with aircraft
wire. In flight fires are possibly the worst thing we can experience while
flying as well, so if you were to use them, I would stick to the absolute lowest
current circuits.
You don't need to become a statistic by testing new wire connection strategies
for aircraft use, when so many other methods and types are available.
I recently found in my house, a circuit where the previous owner had 2 ends of
12 gauge wire that were too short to connect together in a box, secured, so he
used 3 yellow crimp butt splices and wrapped it in electrical tape. When I found
that I was pissed that they would endanger lives like that. Especially since
the reason I found it was that I found no ground at many outlets on a branch
circuit because the ground had broke at the butt splice. Wrong type of connects
for the type of wiring. If you saw a wire nut in an airplane you'd think
the person who did it was nuts. Personally I want any inspector to be able
to look at my wiring and not leave with any negative thoughts.
Tim
> On Mar 10, 2023, at 6:39 AM, Matthew S. Whiting <m.whiting@frontier.com> wrote:
>
>
> Ive wondered the same, but building wiring is a fair bit different than auto/aviation
wiring. Wire nuts are used a lot in American homes, but you dont see
them in cars. The main reason is that cars tend to move and vibrate a lot and
homes generally dont (earthquakes being the exception). Wire nuts wont take
sustained vibration. Wago connectors may withstand vibration, but I doubt they
have been tested for that. I am not aware of any auto maker, even in Europe,
that uses Wago connectors in a car or truck. If I did, I would be much more
inclined to use one in an airplane.
>
> Having said that, if you airplane is an experimental, then you can use them if
you wish and let us know how they work out. If the toggle handle will stay
closed after a few hundred hours of vibration, then all is probably fine.
>
> Matt
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Mar 9, 2023, at 8:30 PM, Ron Cox <flyboyron@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Anyone have an opinion (preferably with some personal experience) about using
WAGO connectors on OBAM aircraft?
>>
>> Theyre UL certified now for higher voltage work, but Im wondering if they might
be a safe and convenient solution for some of those connections in an aircraft
that may need to be disconnected at some point in the future. Seems like
they might be a good alternative for things that need multiple connections to
one point (Nav lights, etc.)
>>
>> I know some of us are very resistant to anything new, but these things have
been used for decades in Europe, and I wondered if anyone has any reason one might
not want to use them in low amperage connections, as most of our are.
>>
>> Theyre rated at 20Amps, and Ive seen them tested online at 60 without causing
any temp rise high enough to concern me.
>>
>> What do you all think?
>>
>> Ron
>
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: WAGO Connectors in OBAM Aircraft? |
...wagos or for that matter wire nuts do not form a gas tight connection
with the conductor(s). Pidg crimp connectors do.
Chris Stone
RV-8 and others
On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 4:36=AFAM Matthew S. Whiting <m.whiting@front
ier.com>
wrote:
> m.whiting@frontier.com>
>
> I=99ve wondered the same, but building wiring is a fair bit differe
nt than
> auto/aviation wiring. Wire nuts are used a lot in American homes, but yo
u
> don=99t see them in cars. The main reason is that cars tend to mov
e and
> vibrate a lot and homes generally don=99t (earthquakes being the ex
ception).
> Wire nuts won=99t take sustained vibration. Wago connectors may wi
thstand
> vibration, but I doubt they have been tested for that. I am not aware of
> any auto maker, even in Europe, that uses Wago connectors in a car or
> truck. If I did, I would be much more inclined to use one in an airplane
.
>
> Having said that, if you airplane is an experimental, then you can use
> them if you wish and let us know how they work out. If the toggle handle
> will stay closed after a few hundred hours of vibration, then all is
> probably fine.
>
> Matt
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: WAGO Connectors in OBAM Aircraft? |
That is the beauty of E-AB. We all get to make the choice that works for us.
If we all stick to only those things that are standardized and approved, then
by definition we make no progress. One of my favorite quotes during my engineering
career was The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable
one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress
depends on the unreasonable man. - George Bernard Shaw.
Would I personally use a Wago in my airplane? Probably not, but not because I
have significant fear of it failing. If I am making a connection that is permanent,
I will use appropriate crimped or soldered connections depending on the
situation. If I am making a connection that likely needs to be broken at some
point, I will use an appropriate connector such as Molex, D-shell, Weatherpack,
etc. I just dont see many places on an airplane where a Wago style connection
offers significant utility.
At my local Home Depot, a two terminal Wago (a splice basically) connector costs
either 67 cents in quantities of 10 or 30 cents in quantity of 100. This is
slightly cheaper than good quality butt connectors at say SteinAir which are
95 cents each with no quantity discount. So, some cost advantage for the high
volume Wago parts, but not that much. There is the advantage of not needing a
tool for the Wagos, but I already have crimp tools so that isnt a factor for
me. I just prefer the permanence of a crimped splice or the convenience of a
connector over the in-between ground of a Wago which I will describe as semi-permanent
and likely not tested for vibration tolerance as is the case with most
connectors and crimps.
Matt
Sent from my iPad
> On Mar 10, 2023, at 9:08 AM, Tim Olson <Tim@myrv10.com> wrote:
>
>
> My take is a little different. I think just because we are OBAM doesn't mean
we shouldn't try to stick with standards approved components. There are some
exceptions when we may be able to do things to an even higher standard, but for
the most part I want my plane to be at or above the standards used for certified
planes, and I'd be wary of connectors that aren't typically used with aircraft
wire. In flight fires are possibly the worst thing we can experience while
flying as well, so if you were to use them, I would stick to the absolute lowest
current circuits.
> You don't need to become a statistic by testing new wire connection strategies
for aircraft use, when so many other methods and types are available.
>
> I recently found in my house, a circuit where the previous owner had 2 ends of
12 gauge wire that were too short to connect together in a box, secured, so
he used 3 yellow crimp butt splices and wrapped it in electrical tape. When I
found that I was pissed that they would endanger lives like that. Especially
since the reason I found it was that I found no ground at many outlets on a branch
circuit because the ground had broke at the butt splice. Wrong type of connects
for the type of wiring. If you saw a wire nut in an airplane you'd think
the person who did it was nuts. Personally I want any inspector to be able
to look at my wiring and not leave with any negative thoughts.
>
> Tim
>
>> On Mar 10, 2023, at 6:39 AM, Matthew S. Whiting <m.whiting@frontier.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Ive wondered the same, but building wiring is a fair bit different than auto/aviation
wiring. Wire nuts are used a lot in American homes, but you dont see
them in cars. The main reason is that cars tend to move and vibrate a lot and
homes generally dont (earthquakes being the exception). Wire nuts wont take
sustained vibration. Wago connectors may withstand vibration, but I doubt they
have been tested for that. I am not aware of any auto maker, even in Europe,
that uses Wago connectors in a car or truck. If I did, I would be much more
inclined to use one in an airplane.
>>
>> Having said that, if you airplane is an experimental, then you can use them
if you wish and let us know how they work out. If the toggle handle will stay
closed after a few hundred hours of vibration, then all is probably fine.
>>
>> Matt
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>>>> On Mar 9, 2023, at 8:30 PM, Ron Cox <flyboyron@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Anyone have an opinion (preferably with some personal experience) about using
WAGO connectors on OBAM aircraft?
>>>
>>> Theyre UL certified now for higher voltage work, but Im wondering if they might
be a safe and convenient solution for some of those connections in an aircraft
that may need to be disconnected at some point in the future. Seems like
they might be a good alternative for things that need multiple connections to
one point (Nav lights, etc.)
>>>
>>> I know some of us are very resistant to anything new, but these things have
been used for decades in Europe, and I wondered if anyone has any reason one
might not want to use them in low amperage connections, as most of our are.
>>>
>>> Theyre rated at 20Amps, and Ive seen them tested online at 60 without causing
any temp rise high enough to concern me.
>>>
>>> What do you all think?
>>>
>>> Ron
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: WAGO Connectors in OBAM Aircraft? |
Ron,
Wago connectors are mostly used with solid wires (s in the name) thers
are few for stranded wires (str). But they are really only used in home
installations and I hade even there a few experience which I rather
would have avoided.
I would oppose to use them in any moving vehicle and never would board
an airplane done with ist. They are not designed for that environment.
Cheers Werner
On 10.03.2023 16:56, Matthew S. Whiting wrote:
>
> That is the beauty of E-AB. We all get to make the choice that works for us.
If we all stick to only those things that are standardized and approved, then
by definition we make no progress. One of my favorite quotes during my engineering
career was The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable
one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress
depends on the unreasonable man. - George Bernard Shaw.
>
> Would I personally use a Wago in my airplane? Probably not, but not because
I have significant fear of it failing. If I am making a connection that is permanent,
I will use appropriate crimped or soldered connections depending on the
situation. If I am making a connection that likely needs to be broken at some
point, I will use an appropriate connector such as Molex, D-shell, Weatherpack,
etc. I just dont see many places on an airplane where a Wago style connection
offers significant utility.
>
> At my local Home Depot, a two terminal Wago (a splice basically) connector costs
either 67 cents in quantities of 10 or 30 cents in quantity of 100. This
is slightly cheaper than good quality butt connectors at say SteinAir which are
95 cents each with no quantity discount. So, some cost advantage for the high
volume Wago parts, but not that much. There is the advantage of not needing
a tool for the Wagos, but I already have crimp tools so that isnt a factor for
me. I just prefer the permanence of a crimped splice or the convenience of
a connector over the in-between ground of a Wago which I will describe as semi-permanent
and likely not tested for vibration tolerance as is the case with most
connectors and crimps.
>
> Matt
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Mar 10, 2023, at 9:08 AM, Tim Olson <Tim@myrv10.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> My take is a little different. I think just because we are OBAM doesn't mean
we shouldn't try to stick with standards approved components. There are some
exceptions when we may be able to do things to an even higher standard, but for
the most part I want my plane to be at or above the standards used for certified
planes, and I'd be wary of connectors that aren't typically used with aircraft
wire. In flight fires are possibly the worst thing we can experience while
flying as well, so if you were to use them, I would stick to the absolute
lowest current circuits.
>> You don't need to become a statistic by testing new wire connection strategies
for aircraft use, when so many other methods and types are available.
>>
>> I recently found in my house, a circuit where the previous owner had 2 ends
of 12 gauge wire that were too short to connect together in a box, secured, so
he used 3 yellow crimp butt splices and wrapped it in electrical tape. When I
found that I was pissed that they would endanger lives like that. Especially
since the reason I found it was that I found no ground at many outlets on a branch
circuit because the ground had broke at the butt splice. Wrong type of
connects for the type of wiring. If you saw a wire nut in an airplane you'd
think the person who did it was nuts. Personally I want any inspector to be
able to look at my wiring and not leave with any negative thoughts.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>> On Mar 10, 2023, at 6:39 AM, Matthew S. Whiting <m.whiting@frontier.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Ive wondered the same, but building wiring is a fair bit different than auto/aviation
wiring. Wire nuts are used a lot in American homes, but you dont see
them in cars. The main reason is that cars tend to move and vibrate a lot
and homes generally dont (earthquakes being the exception). Wire nuts wont take
sustained vibration. Wago connectors may withstand vibration, but I doubt
they have been tested for that. I am not aware of any auto maker, even in Europe,
that uses Wago connectors in a car or truck. If I did, I would be much more
inclined to use one in an airplane.
>>>
>>> Having said that, if you airplane is an experimental, then you can use them
if you wish and let us know how they work out. If the toggle handle will stay
closed after a few hundred hours of vibration, then all is probably fine.
>>>
>>> Matt
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>>>> On Mar 9, 2023, at 8:30 PM, Ron Cox <flyboyron@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Anyone have an opinion (preferably with some personal experience) about using
WAGO connectors on OBAM aircraft?
>>>>
>>>> Theyre UL certified now for higher voltage work, but Im wondering if they
might be a safe and convenient solution for some of those connections in an aircraft
that may need to be disconnected at some point in the future. Seems like
they might be a good alternative for things that need multiple connections to
one point (Nav lights, etc.)
>>>>
>>>> I know some of us are very resistant to anything new, but these things have
been used for decades in Europe, and I wondered if anyone has any reason one
might not want to use them in low amperage connections, as most of our are.
>>>>
>>>> Theyre rated at 20Amps, and Ive seen them tested online at 60 without causing
any temp rise high enough to concern me.
>>>>
>>>> What do you all think?
>>>>
>>>> Ron
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: WAGO Connectors in OBAM Aircraft? |
One significant problem with WAGO and similar connectors is that they're designed
for solid conductors, so they have a sharp tang inside that bites into the
conductor to prevent pull-out. That sharp tang is very good at cutting the tiny
wires that make up stranded wire.
To make connections that you may want to take apart later, Bob has demonstrated
the use of individual D-Sub pins and sockets, held together inside heat shrink
tubing. For joining multiple wires together, use a D-Sub connector pair, where
one of them is a solder-cup style with the cups bussed together with soldered
wire.
Another good option is the Amphenol ATM series connectors. They're an exact duplicate
(every part is interchangeable) of the Deutsch DTM series (widely used
in the automotive world) but at about half the price. Contacts are available
as solid machine-turned or stamped-and-formed. If you have a crimp tool for
D-Sub pins, it will crimp Size 20 contacts for ATM/DTM connectors.
For higher current circuits, the Amphenol AT duplicates Deutsch DT and the Amphenol
ATP duplicates Deutsch DTP.
ATM/DTM: 7A per contact
AT/DT: 13A per contact
ATP/DTP: 25A per contact
Amphenol ATM: https://www.amphenol-sine.com/atm-series
Amphenol AT: https://www.amphenol-sine.com/at-series
Amphenol ATP: https://www.amphenol-sine.com/atp-series
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=510378#510378
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