Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:51 AM - Re: Wiring Looms (Area-51)
2. 08:38 AM - Out of pocket for a few days (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 08:46 AM - Re: Re: Wiring Looms (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 09:01 AM - Re: Re: Wiring Looms (Jeff Luckey)
5. 09:19 AM - Re: Re: Wiring Looms (Charlie England)
6. 09:43 AM - Re: Re: Wiring Looms (Jeff Luckey)
7. 10:42 AM - Re: Re: Wiring Looms (Charlie England)
8. 12:23 PM - Re: Wiring Looms (Area-51)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring Looms |
Thanks guys for all the input there...
The Tefzel i'm aware of, and its my preference... but what options are people using
to wrap the bundle in?
I would not feel convinced with silver coated traces; its a great conductor but
brittle over time.
I thought shielding is required to mitigate RF generated interference to avionics??
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=510724#510724
Message 2
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| Subject: | Out of pocket for a few days |
Dr. Dee, grandson and yours truly off to goof
around in K.C. and visit relatives this weekend
Off line until Monday a.m.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring Looms |
At 03:51 AM 5/4/2023, you wrote:
><goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com>
>
>Thanks guys for all the input there...
>I would not feel convinced with silver coated traces; its a great
>conductor but brittle over time.
The use of silver plating on Teflon insulated
wires is necessary because of high extrusion
temperatures for Teflon . . . not for improved
conductivity. Tinned conductors are not compatible
with Teflon insulation.
>I thought shielding is required to mitigate RF generated
>interference to avionics??
Please review the chapter in the 'Connection on
electro-magnetic compatibility practice. Ideally,
the well crafted installation of qualified
appliances in airplanes (or any other vehicle)
do not require shielding of any kind. You
will be hard pressed to find a shielded wire
in any system in your car . . . or TC aircraft.
They are rare.
I can't remember the last time I found it
necessary to shield any wire.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring Looms |
I will throw in one asterisk *=C2- ...
Many Avionics manufacturers recommend the use of shielded cables for their
data bus wiring.
=C2-OK, 2 asterisks...
Also, it is fairly common practice to shield low-level audio wires.
-Jeff
On Thursday, May 4, 2023 at 08:51:49 AM PDT, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <n
uckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
At 03:51 AM 5/4/2023, you wrote:
--> AeroElectric-List messageposted by: "Area-51"<goldsteinindustrial@gmail
.com>
Thanks guys for all the input there...
=C2-=C2-
I would not feel convinced withsilver coated traces; its a great conductor
but brittle overtime.
=C2-=C2- The use of silver plating on Teflon insulated
=C2-=C2- wires is necessary because of high extrusion
=C2-=C2- temperatures for Teflon . . . not for improved
=C2-=C2- conductivity. Tinned conductors are not compatible
=C2-=C2- with Teflon insulation.
I thought shielding is requiredto mitigate RF generated interference to avi
onics??
=C2-=C2- Please review the chapter in the 'Connection on
=C2-=C2- electro-magnetic compatibility practice. Ideally,
=C2-=C2- the well crafted installation of qualified
=C2-=C2- appliances in airplanes (or any other vehicle)
=C2-=C2- do not require shielding of any kind. You
=C2-=C2- will be hard pressed to find a shielded wire
=C2-=C2- in any system in your car . . . or TC aircraft.
=C2-=C2- They are rare.
=C2-=C2- I can't remember the last time I found it
=C2-=C2- necessary to shield any wire.
=C2- Bob . . .
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2
-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-////
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2
-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-(o o)
=C2-=C2- ===========o00o=(_)=o00o====
=====
=C2-=C2- < Go ahead, make my day . . .=C2-=C2- >
=C2-=C2- < show me where I'm wrong.=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2->
=C2-=C2- ====================
============
=C2-
=C2-=C2- In the interest of creative evolution
=C2-=C2- of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
=C2-=C2- on physics and good practice.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring Looms |
It is common practice with a/c audio wires, but it rarely does anything
helpful. The reason is that a/c audio is 'low impedance'; around 600 ohms,
and is far less susceptible to picking up radiated noise than the wiring in
a home stereo, where the low level stuff is ~50k ohms impedance.
Similar situation with data. I wonder if the mfgrs of avionics are just
*hoping* that one more layer of 'stuff' may head off a service complaint.
Charlie
Audio tech, and service tech, in a couple of past lives
On Thu, May 4, 2023 at 11:06=AFAM Jeff Luckey <jluckey@pacbell.net> w
rote:
> I will throw in one asterisk * ...
>
> Many Avionics manufacturers recommend the use of shielded cables for thei
r
> data bus wiring.
>
> OK, 2 asterisks...
>
> Also, it is fairly common practice to shield low-level audio wires.
>
>
> -Jeff
>
>
> On Thursday, May 4, 2023 at 08:51:49 AM PDT, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
>
> At 03:51 AM 5/4/2023, you wrote:
>
> goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com>
>
> Thanks guys for all the input there...
>
>
> I would not feel convinced with silver coated traces; its a great
> conductor but brittle over time.
>
>
> The use of silver plating on Teflon insulated
> wires is necessary because of high extrusion
> temperatures for Teflon . . . not for improved
> conductivity. Tinned conductors are not compatible
> with Teflon insulation.
>
> I thought shielding is required to mitigate RF generated interference to
> avionics??
>
>
> Please review the chapter in the 'Connection on
> electro-magnetic compatibility practice. Ideally,
> the well crafted installation of qualified
> appliances in airplanes (or any other vehicle)
> do not require shielding of any kind. You
> will be hard pressed to find a shielded wire
> in any system in your car . . . or TC aircraft.
> They are rare.
>
> I can't remember the last time I found it
> necessary to shield any wire.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ////
> (o o)
> ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======
==
> < Go ahead, make my day . . . >
> < show me where I'm wrong. >
> =======================
=========
>
> In the interest of creative evolution
> of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
> on physics and good practice.
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring Looms |
Interesting observations.=C2- But from a practical point of view...
Charlie, that may be the case, but I would not want to be in a situation wh
ere something is not working correctly, possibly due to some kind of interf
erence, and having to explain to manufacturer's tech support that I did not
comply with their recommended procedures.=C2- It could give them license
to say: "Well it's on you, then".
Same thing goes for customers.=C2- I would have trouble trying to explain
to a customer why I didn't comply with the manufacturer's recommendations.
-Jeff
On Thursday, May 4, 2023 at 09:24:35 AM PDT, Charlie England <ceengland
7@gmail.com> wrote:
It is common practice with a/c audio wires, but it rarely does anything he
lpful. The reason=C2- is that a/c audio is 'low impedance'; around 600 oh
ms, and is far less susceptible to picking up radiated noise than the wirin
g in a home stereo, where the low level stuff is ~50k ohms impedance.=C2-
Similar situation with data. I wonder if the mfgrs of avionics are just hop
ing that one more layer of 'stuff' may head off a service complaint.
CharlieAudio tech, and service=C2-tech, in a couple of past lives
On Thu, May 4, 2023 at 11:06=AFAM Jeff Luckey <jluckey@pacbell.net> w
rote:
I will throw in one asterisk *=C2- ...
Many Avionics manufacturers recommend the use of shielded cables for their
data bus wiring.
=C2-OK, 2 asterisks...
Also, it is fairly common practice to shield low-level audio wires.
-Jeff
On Thursday, May 4, 2023 at 08:51:49 AM PDT, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <n
uckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
At 03:51 AM 5/4/2023, you wrote:
--> AeroElectric-List messageposted by: "Area-51"<goldsteinindustrial@gmail
.com>
Thanks guys for all the input there...
=C2-=C2-
I would not feel convinced withsilver coated traces; its a great conductor
but brittle overtime.
=C2-=C2- The use of silver plating on Teflon insulated
=C2-=C2- wires is necessary because of high extrusion
=C2-=C2- temperatures for Teflon . . . not for improved
=C2-=C2- conductivity. Tinned conductors are not compatible
=C2-=C2- with Teflon insulation.
I thought shielding is requiredto mitigate RF generated interference to avi
onics??
=C2-=C2- Please review the chapter in the 'Connection on
=C2-=C2- electro-magnetic compatibility practice. Ideally,
=C2-=C2- the well crafted installation of qualified
=C2-=C2- appliances in airplanes (or any other vehicle)
=C2-=C2- do not require shielding of any kind. You
=C2-=C2- will be hard pressed to find a shielded wire
=C2-=C2- in any system in your car . . . or TC aircraft.
=C2-=C2- They are rare.
=C2-=C2- I can't remember the last time I found it
=C2-=C2- necessary to shield any wire.
=C2- Bob . . .
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2
-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-////
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2
-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-(o o)
=C2-=C2- ===========o00o=(_)=o00o====
=====
=C2-=C2- < Go ahead, make my day . . .=C2-=C2- >
=C2-=C2- < show me where I'm wrong.=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2->
=C2-=C2- ====================
============
=C2-
=C2-=C2- In the interest of creative evolution
=C2-=C2- of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
=C2-=C2- on physics and good practice.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring Looms |
If one is buying brand new avionics with a bunch of digits to the left
of the decimal point, then obviously it makes sense to follow the mfgr's
installation instructions, for exactly that reason.
But now we're talking about what works for 'interpersonal relations';
not what /works/.
;-)
On 5/4/2023 11:42 AM, Jeff Luckey wrote:
> Interesting observations. But from a practical point of view...
>
> Charlie, that may be the case, but I would not want to be in a
> situation where something is not working correctly, possibly due to
> some kind of interference, and having to explain to manufacturer's
> tech support that I did not comply with their recommended procedures.
> It could give them license to say: "Well it's on you, then".
>
> Same thing goes for customers. I would have trouble trying to explain
> to a customer why I didn't comply with the manufacturer's recommendations.
>
>
> -Jeff
>
> On Thursday, May 4, 2023 at 09:24:35 AM PDT, Charlie England
> <ceengland7@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> It is common practice with a/c audio wires, but it rarely does
> anything helpful. The reason is that a/c audio is 'low impedance';
> around 600 ohms, and is far less susceptible to picking up radiated
> noise than the wiring in a home stereo, where the low level stuff is
> ~50k ohms impedance.
>
> Similar situation with data. I wonder if the mfgrs of avionics are
> just /hoping/ that one more layer of 'stuff' may head off a service
> complaint.
>
> Charlie
> Audio tech, and servicetech, in a couple of past lives
>
> On Thu, May 4, 2023 at 11:06AM Jeff Luckey <jluckey@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> I will throw in one asterisk * ...
>
> Many Avionics manufacturers recommend the use of shielded cables
> for their data bus wiring.
>
> OK, 2 asterisks...
>
> Also, it is fairly common practice to shield low-level audio wires.
>
>
> -Jeff
>
>
> On Thursday, May 4, 2023 at 08:51:49 AM PDT, Robert L. Nuckolls,
> III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
>
> At 03:51 AM 5/4/2023, you wrote:
>> <goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com>
>>
>> Thanks guys for all the input there...
>
>
>> I would not feel convinced with silver coated traces; its a great
>> conductor but brittle over time.
>
> The use of silver plating on Teflon insulated
> wires is necessary because of high extrusion
> temperatures for Teflon . . . not for improved
> conductivity. Tinned conductors are not compatible
> with Teflon insulation.
>
>> I thought shielding is required to mitigate RF generated
>> interference to avionics??
>
> Please review the chapter in the 'Connection on
> electro-magnetic compatibility practice. Ideally,
> the well crafted installation of qualified
> appliances in airplanes (or any other vehicle)
> do not require shielding of any kind. You
> will be hard pressed to find a shielded wire
> in any system in your car . . . or TC aircraft.
> They are rare.
>
> I can't remember the last time I found it
> necessary to shield any wire.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ////
> (o o)
> ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
> < Go ahead, make my day . . . >
> < show me where I'm wrong. >
> ================================
>
> In the interest of creative evolution
> of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
> on physics and good practice.
>
--
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring Looms |
This is really interesting now!
When i did the nervous system for the mustang project everything was twisted pairs
throughout, except the loom between electric steering control box and steering
rack, and GPS antenna; which were both shielded.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=510732#510732
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