Today's Message Index:
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1. 07:26 AM - Z101 switch state question: engine and main bus shutdown (jcohen@post.com)
2. 08:06 AM - Re: Z101 switch state question: engine and main bus shutdown (jcohen@post.com)
3. 08:10 AM - Re: Z101 switch state question: engine and main bus shutdown (Charlie England)
4. 08:20 AM - Re: Z101 switch state question: engine and main bus shutdown (Sebastien)
5. 08:32 AM - Re: Re: Z101 switch state question: engine and main bus shutdown (jcohen@post.com)
6. 08:43 AM - Re: Z101 switch state question: engine and main bus shutdown (jcohen@post.com)
7. 11:45 AM - Re: Z101 switch state question: engine and main bus shutdown (user9253)
8. 02:45 PM - Re: Re: Z101 switch state question: engine and main bus shutdown (Charlie England)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Z101 switch state question: engine and main bus shutdown |
I am implementing Z101 on my electrically dependent RV7 with a Lycoming IO360 engine,
SDS EFII. I have a very basic question regarding operating states and switches.
It may be stupid, so help me out. Here goes....
1. To shut the engine down, I was assuming I would turn the engine bus alt feed
relay to off, then turn the master to off and the engine stops. But, wouldn't
the primary alternator still keep supplying power to the engine bus and main
bus, even without the battery in the loop, as it can supply power to energize
its own field once running, without the master switch? So in effect nothing appears
to happen?
2. IF #1 above is correct, should the best procedure for engine shutdown be turn
off both electric fuel pumps first, and/or turn off both Ignition Coils (Top
and Bottom), then turn off the engine bus alt feed switch and the Master switch
to OFF?
3. And how do I turn off the main bus in flight but keep the engine running? If
I am correct, turning the master off doesnt de-power the main bus. Should the
emergency procedure to get the main bus off in-flight for Z101, e.g. an electrical
fire but keep the engine running, is to pull the alternator field circuit
breaker along with the Master switch to off?
I am probably confused; most of this question centers on: Why couldnt the primary
alternator keep working even with the master off and battery out of the loop?
Not sure I like the idea of having the main bus stay alive even when the master
is off with the engine running.
--------
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=510934#510934
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| Subject: | Re: Z101 switch state question: engine and main bus |
shutdown
Oops, never mind, I discovered my own mistake. When the master is off, the pri
alt field cannot get power from anything, as the bus voltage into the LR-3 regulator
is zero.
Sorry for my confusion!
--------
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=510936#510936
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| Subject: | Re: Z101 switch state question: engine and main bus |
shutdown
On 6/8/2023 9:26 AM, jcohen@post.com wrote:
>
> I am implementing Z101 on my electrically dependent RV7 with a Lycoming IO360
engine, SDS EFII. I have a very basic question regarding operating states and
switches. It may be stupid, so help me out. Here goes....
>
>
> 1. To shut the engine down, I was assuming I would turn the engine bus alt feed
relay to off, then turn the master to off and the engine stops. But, wouldn't
the primary alternator still keep supplying power to the engine bus and main
bus, even without the battery in the loop, as it can supply power to energize
its own field once running, without the master switch? So in effect nothing
appears to happen?
> 2. IF #1 above is correct, should the best procedure for engine shutdown be turn
off both electric fuel pumps first, and/or turn off both Ignition Coils (Top
and Bottom), then turn off the engine bus alt feed switch and the Master switch
to OFF?
> 3. And how do I turn off the main bus in flight but keep the engine running?
If I am correct, turning the master off doesnt de-power the main bus. Should the
emergency procedure to get the main bus off in-flight for Z101, e.g. an electrical
fire but keep the engine running, is to pull the alternator field circuit
breaker along with the Master switch to off?
>
> I am probably confused; most of this question centers on: Why couldnt the primary
alternator keep working even with the master off and battery out of the loop?
Not sure I like the idea of having the main bus stay alive even when the
master is off with the engine running.
>
> --------
> Jeff
>
>
This is from just a quick look, but a few thoughts.
Turning off the master switch shuts down the primary alternator via the
2nd set of contacts in the master switch, which interrupts power to the
regulator.
For shutting the engine down, do you not have switches for each of the
controllers within the SDS system? The ideal situation IMO is to have
a pair of switches that have the same effect as a pair of mag switches,
and have the aircraft electrical bus(es) switched independently of the
engine bus, so that in stressful situations, our training will allow us
to react the same way we did with traditional engines/mags/carbs.
I never did a deep dive into the Z101 drawing because I'd already
finalized my architecture, but looking at it now, I would question the
choice to put the aux alt control on the aux bus, especially when
running an automotive style injection system with its high current
demand. My choice was to place the aux alternator output and control on
the engine bus, so that the entire airframe can be made 'cold' without
affecting the engine and its electrical power source; as close as
possible to traditional systems.
As I said, this was a quick look, so I may have missed some stuff.
Charlie
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Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Z101 switch state question: engine and main bus |
shutdown
Last time I worked on an EFII engine you had to shut down the whole system
at once. Shutting down just the ignition or just the fuel lead to a very
rough shutdown.
On Thu, Jun 8, 2023 at 8:12=AFAM Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.co
m> wrote:
> ceengland7@gmail.com>
>
> On 6/8/2023 9:26 AM, jcohen@post.com wrote:
> jcohen@post.com>
> >
> > I am implementing Z101 on my electrically dependent RV7 with a Lycoming
> IO360 engine, SDS EFII. I have a very basic question regarding operating
> states and switches. It may be stupid, so help me out. Here goes....
> >
> >
> > 1. To shut the engine down, I was assuming I would turn the engine bus
> alt feed relay to off, then turn the master to off and the engine stops.
> But, wouldn't the primary alternator still keep supplying power to the
> engine bus and main bus, even without the battery in the loop, as it can
> supply power to energize its own field once running, without the master
> switch? So in effect nothing appears to happen?
> > 2. IF #1 above is correct, should the best procedure for engine shutdow
n
> be turn off both electric fuel pumps first, and/or turn off both Ignition
> Coils (Top and Bottom), then turn off the engine bus alt feed switch and
> the Master switch to OFF?
> > 3. And how do I turn off the main bus in flight but keep the engine
> running? If I am correct, turning the master off doesn=C3=A2=82=AC
=84=A2t de-power the
> main bus. Should the emergency procedure to get the main bus off in-fligh
t
> for Z101, e.g. an electrical fire but keep the engine running, is to pull
> the alternator field circuit breaker along with the Master switch to off?
> >
> > I am probably confused; most of this question centers on: Why couldn=C3
=A2=82=AC=84=A2t
> the primary alternator keep working even with the master off and battery
> out of the loop? Not sure I like the idea of having the main bus stay ali
ve
> even when the master is off with the engine running.
> >
> > --------
> > Jeff
> >
> >
> This is from just a quick look, but a few thoughts.
> Turning off the master switch shuts down the primary alternator via the
> 2nd set of contacts in the master switch, which interrupts power to the
> regulator.
>
> For shutting the engine down, do you not have switches for each of the
> controllers within the SDS system? The ideal situation IMO is to have
> a pair of switches that have the same effect as a pair of mag switches,
> and have the aircraft electrical bus(es) switched independently of the
> engine bus, so that in stressful situations, our training will allow us
> to react the same way we did with traditional engines/mags/carbs.
>
> I never did a deep dive into the Z101 drawing because I'd already
> finalized my architecture, but looking at it now, I would question the
> choice to put the aux alt control on the aux bus, especially when
> running an automotive style injection system with its high current
> demand. My choice was to place the aux alternator output and control on
> the engine bus, so that the entire airframe can be made 'cold' without
> affecting the engine and its electrical power source; as close as
> possible to traditional systems.
>
> As I said, this was a quick look, so I may have missed some stuff.
>
> Charlie
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> www.avast.com
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Z101 switch state question: engine and main |
bus shutdown
Thanks Charlie. I now understand the primary regulator is off when the master is
in the BAT or OFF position, thank you.
The aux alt control in z101 is placed on the battery bus, so I can shutdown the
main bus, the entire airframe goes cold, as you said, without shutting down the
engine.
I actually power my main EFIS display off of the engine bus as well, so I can still
get engine info / attitude info when the engine is running, even with all
other stuff cold. That is the only item that is not essential to the engine that
I placed on the engine bus, to keep engine bus current loads to a minimum
if only running on the third electrical source, (I.e. battery only). Plus this
way, if I lose my pri alternator, I am only time limited by fuel on using my
primary EFIS, not battery power.
Thanks again Charlie for your help.
Jeff
On 6/8/23 at 11:16 AM, Charlie England wrote:
>
> On 6/8/2023 9:26 AM, jcohen@post.com wrote:
> >
> > I am implementing Z101 on my electrically dependent RV7 with a Lycoming IO360
engine, SDS EFII. I have a very basic question regarding operating states and
switches. It may be stupid, so help me out. Here goes....
> >
> >
> > 1. To shut the engine down, I was assuming I would turn the engine bus alt
feed relay to off, then turn the master to off and the engine stops. But, wouldn't
the primary alternator still keep supplying power to the engine bus and main
bus, even without the battery in the loop, as it can supply power to energize
its own field once running, without the master switch? So in effect nothing
appears to happen?
> > 2. IF #1 above is correct, should the best procedure for engine shutdown be
turn off both electric fuel pumps first, and/or turn off both Ignition Coils
(Top and Bottom), then turn off the engine bus alt feed switch and the Master
switch to OFF?
> > 3. And how do I turn off the main bus in flight but keep the engine running?
If I am correct, turning the master off doesnt de-power the main bus. Should
the emergency procedure to get the main bus off in-flight for Z101, e.g. an electrical
fire but keep the engine running, is to pull the alternator field circuit
breaker along with the Master switch to off?
> >
> > I am probably confused; most of this question centers on: Why couldnt the primary
alternator keep working even with the master off and battery out of the
loop? Not sure I like the idea of having the main bus stay alive even when the
master is off with the engine running.
> >
> > --------
> > Jeff
> >
> >
> This is from just a quick look, but a few thoughts.
> Turning off the master switch shuts down the primary alternator via the
> 2nd set of contacts in the master switch, which interrupts power to the
> regulator.
>
> For shutting the engine down, do you not have switches for each of the
> controllers within the SDS system? The ideal situation IMO is to have
> a pair of switches that have the same effect as a pair of mag switches,
> and have the aircraft electrical bus(es) switched independently of the
> engine bus, so that in stressful situations, our training will allow us
> to react the same way we did with traditional engines/mags/carbs.
>
> I never did a deep dive into the Z101 drawing because I'd already
> finalized my architecture, but looking at it now, I would question the
> choice to put the aux alt control on the aux bus, especially when
> running an automotive style injection system with its high current
> demand. My choice was to place the aux alternator output and control on
> the engine bus, so that the entire airframe can be made 'cold' without
> affecting the engine and its electrical power source; as close as
> possible to traditional systems.
>
> As I said, this was a quick look, so I may have missed some stuff.
>
> Charlie
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> www.avast.com
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Z101 switch state question: engine and main bus |
shutdown
Thanks for the replies I now understand the primary regulator is off when the
master is in the BAT or OFF position, thank you.
The aux alt control in z101 is placed on the battery bus, so I can shutdown the
main bus, the entire airframe goes cold, as you said, without shutting down the
engine.
I actually power my main EFIS display off of the engine bus as well, so I can still
get engine info / attitude info when the engine is running, even with all
other stuff cold. That is the only item that is not essential to the engine that
I placed on the engine bus, to keep engine bus current loads to a minimum
if only running on the third electrical source, (I.e. battery only). Plus this
way, if I lose my pri alternator, I am only time limited by fuel on using my
primary EFIS, not battery power.
I believe I can do a normal engine shutdown by turning the aux alternator switch
OFF, then master switch and engine bus Alt feed switch to OFF simultaneously;
that will cut both feeds and both alternator power sources together, shutting
the engine CPU off. Just like an automotive shutdown.
--------
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=510941#510941
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Z101 switch state question: engine and main bus |
shutdown
Looking at Z-101, The aux alternator control is not on the aux bus, but gets
powered by the battery bus as jcohen stated in a separate thread. However
the aux alternator and aux bus are both controlled by one switch (separate
halves of a double pole switch). Evidently the thinking is that if the primary
alternator fails, then the pilot will want both the aux bus and the aux
alternator turned on. Having one double pole switch control both functions
eliminates one switch on the panel. However, what if there is smoke in the
cockpit from a suspected electrical failure. Wouldn't the pilot want to shut off
both the battery contactor and the aux bus relay? But what if he wants the
aux alternator to keep running to power the engine bus? In an emergency,
the pilot's brain quits working. And so the simpler, the better. The pilot won't
remember if the switch needs to be in the middle or fully up. I suggest two
independent switches, one for aux alternator and one for aux bus.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=510942#510942
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Z101 switch state question: engine and main |
bus shutdown
On Thu, Jun 8, 2023 at 1:48=AFPM user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Looking at Z-101, The aux alternator control is not on the aux bus, but
> gets
> powered by the battery bus as jcohen stated in a separate thread. Howeve
r
> the aux alternator and aux bus are both controlled by one switch (separat
e
> halves of a double pole switch). Evidently the thinking is that if the
> primary
> alternator fails, then the pilot will want both the aux bus and the aux
> alternator turned on. Having one double pole switch control both
> functions
> eliminates one switch on the panel. However, what if there is smoke in
> the
> cockpit from a suspected electrical failure. Wouldn't the pilot want to
> shut off
> both the battery contactor and the aux bus relay? But what if he wants
> the
> aux alternator to keep running to power the engine bus? In an emergency,
> the pilot's brain quits working. And so the simpler, the better. The
> pilot won't
> remember if the switch needs to be in the middle or fully up. I suggest
> two
> independent switches, one for aux alternator and one for aux bus.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
> As drawn, it's a progressive switch, so you can't get aux alt without aux
bus coming up first.
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