Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:10 AM - Re: OVM-14 MkIII (user9253)
2. 06:56 AM - Re: OVM-14 MkIII (Finn Lassen)
3. 07:13 AM - Re: Re: OVM-14 MkIII (Neal George)
4. 09:08 AM - Re: Re: OVM-14 MkIII (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 09:24 AM - Re: OVM-14 MkIII (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 09:28 AM - Re: Re: OVM-14 MkIII (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 09:38 AM - Re: Re: OVM-14 MkIII (Jeff Luckey)
8. 11:09 AM - Re: OVM-14 MkIII (Finn Lassen)
9. 02:28 PM - Re: OVM-14 MkIII (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 03:18 PM - Super Simple Solution to an OVM Trip Indicator (Jeff Luckey)
11. 03:21 PM - Test - PDF Attachment (Jeff Luckey)
12. 03:32 PM - Re: Test - PDF Attachment (Charles Kuss)
13. 05:09 PM - Re: Re: OVM-14 MkIII (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
14. 05:28 PM - Re: OVM-14 MkIII (Finn Lassen)
15. 05:52 PM - Trying to register (Jeff Holdridge)
16. 06:04 PM - Re: Practical data acquisition (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
17. 06:11 PM - Re: Re: OVM-14 MkIII (Jeff Luckey)
18. 06:37 PM - Re: Re: Practical data acquisition (Finn Lassen)
19. 07:23 PM - Re: Re: OVM-14 MkIII (Neal George)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: OVM-14 MkIII |
> do you
> NOT have a low voltage warning light? What would
> the ov light tell you that the lv light would not?
>
An over-voltage light will tell the reason for low voltage. There could be other
reasons fir low voltage.
I would save troubleshooting for when safely on the ground. But some pilots might
find an
over-voltage light helpful depending on the aircraft instrumentation and pilot
workload and stress factor.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=511454#511454
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: OVM-14 MkIII |
On 9/20/2023 10:47 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 12:35 PM 9/20/2023, you wrote:
>> Bob,
>>
>> I want to turn on an idiot light that indicates an over-voltage trip
>> event.
>>
>> The attached quick-and-dirty schematic shows what I would like to do,
>> however I have not seen a final schematic for your latest OVM, so I'm
>> working on some assumptions.
>
> What you've described will work . . . but do you
> NOT have a low voltage warning light? What would
> the ov light tell you that the lv light would not?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
I would love to have an indication telling me why the field breaker
tripped. Over voltage or excessive field/voltage regulator current?
I'm still trying to figure out why my breaker sometimes pops when
pulling back to low RPMs. I had changed the alternator pulley to prevent
excessive RPMs and wear on the alternator, so it may well be field
over-current. On the other hand field current with alternator stopped is
3.45A and appears to be next to nothing when running at 3,000RPM and
above. 5A breaker. Still working on data logging to figure it out.
Finn
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: OVM-14 MkIII |
Unless the OV light has a latching function, will it not extinguish as soon as
the crowbar trips the Field breaker?
Neal George
Sent from my iPhone
> do you
> NOT have a low voltage warning light? What would
> the ov light tell you that the lv light would not?
>
An over-voltage light will tell the reason for low voltage. There could be other
reasons fir low voltage.
I would save troubleshooting for when safely on the ground. But some pilots might
find an
over-voltage light helpful depending on the aircraft instrumentation and pilot
workload and stress factor.
--------
Joe Gores
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: OVM-14 MkIII |
At 07:09 AM 9/21/2023, you wrote:
>
>
> > do you
> > NOT have a low voltage warning light? What would
> > the ov light tell you that the lv light would not?
> >
>
>An over-voltage light will tell the reason for low voltage.
Assuming we subscribe to "aviate, navigate, communicate
and leave tools in the hangar", then knowing why a
low voltage condition exists is not useful while
airborne. Once on the ground, a popped breaker is
as profound as a light annunciating the obvious.
>There could be other reasons fir low voltage.
Sure 'nuf. The vast majority of low voltage
conditions involve broken belts, broken
wires, worn brushes. Fault on field supply
line which would open the breaker and masquerade
as an ov condition when in fact, no such
condition exists. The PTT feature
helps resolve the paradox.
>I would save troubleshooting for when safely on the ground. But
>some pilots might find an
>over-voltage light helpful depending on the aircraft instrumentation
>and pilot workload and stress factor.
I suggest that info is of no value:
LOW VOLTS LIGHT - ON
MAIN ALTERNATOR - OFF
AUX ALTERNATOR (if installed) - ON
PLAN-B LOAD MANAGEMENT - ACCOMPLISHED
LANDING - AS SOON AS PRACTICAL
TOOLBOX - OPEN
Reversion to Plan-B is consistent irrespective
of root cause, i.e. no difference in work-load.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: OVM-14 MkIII |
>I would love to have an indication telling me why the field breaker
>tripped. Over voltage or excessive field/voltage
>regulator current?
Having an annunciator call out OPEN BREAKER doesn't
help resolve the issue.
>I'm still trying to figure out why my breaker sometimes pops when
>pulling back to low
>RPMs. I had changed the alternator pulley to prevent excessive RPMs
>and wear on the
>alternator
Were you experiencing alternator failures or
excessive wear with a diagnosis of 'turning
too fast'?
Check with the field service gurus at B&C
to inquire as to their experience over decades
and thousands of alternator installations.
How often do alternators fail due to
mechanical wear?
About 30 years ago, Van's customer service
advice and their design policy for alternators
they supplied called for a special, oversized
pulley to slow down alternator to forestall
'excessive stress'.
In fact, slowing the alternator down only
increases field current and reduces cooling
airflow from internal fans. Bearings and
brushes are not significantly affected by
increased operating speeds.
>. . . so it may well be field over-current.
So how many other choices do you have? Trips occur
only at low rpm? OV conditions can present
at ANY rpm. Did this condition exist before
you increased pulley size?
>On the other hand field current with alternator stopped
>is 3.45A and appears to be next to nothing when running at
>3,000RPM and above. 5A breaker. Still working on data
>logging to figure it out.
I would start by replacing the breaker . . .
your breaker may be 'soft'. Maybe upsize to
7A. Better yet, put the smaller pulley back on.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: OVM-14 MkIII |
At 09:12 AM 9/21/2023, you wrote:
>
>Unless the OV light has a latching function, will it not extinguish
>as soon as the crowbar trips the Field breaker?
>
>Neal George
In this case, the light was essentially
across an open breaker. I.e. it would
annunciate a 'breaker open' condition
irrespective of root cause.
Kinda like those whizzy fuses with
built in LEDs that illuminate if the
fuse is blown.
BTW Neal, I got my gmail bouncing issues
resolved with my email server. I think
I may have some messages intended for you
that were never delivered. I'll check
to see if we have any significant
issues 'hung up'.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: OVM-14 MkIII |
Neal - yes, latching is essential and my sketch assumes that it is possibl
e.=C2- (and I believe that Bob confirmed that)
Joe - agree with what you said.
Off the top of my head, the alternator field breaker could be tripped for t
he following reasons:
1. Wiring fault2. Regulator fault/fail3. Breaker failure4. Actual/legitimat
e over voltage event5. OVM fault
If we get some kind of indication that the tripped field breaker is due to
some action taken by the OVM then that additional info will aid in our diag
nosis.
Anecdotally, I just saw a thread on another forum where and aging circuit b
reaker was nuisance tripping.=C2- There was quite a bit of trouble-shooti
ng and back and fourth.=C2- After a week or two the breaker was replaced
and the problem was fixed.
Another thought, the early adopters of Bob's new OVM will essentially be be
ta testers. If the OVM is a little "twitchy" and nuisance trips frequently,
having an idiot light would immediately confirm that the OVM caused the br
eaker to trip. (It would not tell you what's wrong with the OVM but just kn
owing that it is the cause would be extremely helpful.)
I just read further down this thread.=C2- To clarify the requirements: Th
e idiot light must indicate that the OVM "fired", not just that the field b
reaker is open.
-Jeff
On Thursday, September 21, 2023 at 09:15:49 AM PDT, Robert L. Nuckolls,
III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
At 07:09 AM 9/21/2023, you wrote:
--> AeroElectric-List messageposted by: "user9253" <fransew@gmail.com>
> do you
> NOT have a low voltage warning light? What would
> the ov light tell you that the lv light would not?
>
An over-voltage light will tell the reason for lowvoltage.
=C2-=C2-=C2- Assuming we subscribe to "aviate, navigate,communicate
=C2-=C2-=C2- and leave tools in the hangar", then knowing whya
=C2-=C2-=C2- low voltage condition exists is not useful while
=C2-=C2-=C2- airborne. Once on the ground, a popped breaker is
=C2-=C2-=C2- as profound as a light annunciating theobvious.
There could beother reasons fir low voltage.
=C2-=C2-=C2- Sure 'nuf. The vast majority of low voltage
=C2-=C2-=C2- conditions involve broken belts, broken
=C2-=C2-=C2- wires, worn brushes. Fault on field supply
=C2-=C2-=C2- line which would open the breaker and masquerade
=C2-=C2-=C2- as an ov condition when in fact, no such
=C2-=C2-=C2- condition exists. The PTT feature
=C2-=C2-=C2- helps resolve the paradox.
I would savetroubleshooting for when safely on the ground.=C2- But some p
ilotsmight find an
over-voltage light helpful depending on the aircraft instrumentation andpil
ot workload and stress factor.
=C2-=C2-=C2- I suggest that info is of no value:
=C2-=C2-=C2- LOW VOLTS LIGHT - ON
=C2-=C2-=C2- MAIN ALTERNATOR - OFF
=C2-=C2-=C2- AUX ALTERNATOR (if installed) - ON
=C2-=C2-=C2- PLAN-B LOAD MANAGEMENT - ACCOMPLISHED
=C2-=C2-=C2- LANDING - AS SOON AS PRACTICAL
=C2-=C2-=C2- TOOLBOX - OPEN
=C2-=C2-=C2- Reversion to Plan-B is consistent irrespective
=C2-=C2-=C2- of root cause, i.e. no difference inwork-load.
=C2- Bob . . .
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2
-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-////
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2
-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-(o o)
=C2-=C2- ===========o00o=(_)=o00o====
=====
=C2-=C2- < Go ahead, make my day . . .=C2-=C2- >
=C2-=C2- < show me where I'm wrong.=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2->
=C2-=C2- ====================
============
=C2-
=C2-=C2- In the interest of creative evolution
=C2-=C2- of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
=C2-=C2- on physics and good practice.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: OVM-14 MkIII |
On 9/21/2023 12:24 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>> I would love to have an indication telling me why the field breaker
>> tripped. Over voltage or excessive field/voltage
>> regulator current?
>
> Having an annunciator call out OPEN BREAKER doesn't
> help resolve the issue.
>
>> I'm still trying to figure out why my breaker sometimes pops when
>> pulling back to low
>> RPMs. I had changed the alternator pulley to prevent excessive RPMs
>> and wear on the
>> alternator
>
> Were you experiencing alternator failures or
> excessive wear with a diagnosis of 'turning
> too fast'?
No, purely a preventive measure.
>
> Check with the field service gurus at B&C
> to inquire as to their experience over decades
> and thousands of alternator installations.
> How often do alternators fail due to
> mechanical wear?
>
> About 30 years ago, Van's customer service
> advice and their design policy for alternators
> they supplied called for a special, oversized
> pulley to slow down alternator to forestall
> 'excessive stress'.
>
> In fact, slowing the alternator down only
> increases field current and reduces cooling
> airflow from internal fans. Bearings and
> brushes are not significantly affected by
> increased operating speeds.
In my case (Madza 13-B Renesis), cruise is typically 5,000 to 6,000 RPM.
So it seems reasonable to slow down the alternator to that speed rather
than maybe twice that.
>
>> . . . so it may well be field over-current.
>
> So how many other choices do you have? Trips occur
> only at low rpm?
Have seen it happen around 3,000 RPM but not as frequent as when quickly
pulling back to 1,700 or so. Just need to rule out other possible causes
such a intermittent shorts at certain RPMs (chafing at certain
vibrations). Got 85 hours on the Hobbs, probably another 30 hours on
engine in the airframe.
> OV conditions can present
> at ANY rpm. Did this condition exist before
> you increased pulley size?
Not that I recall. Certainly not as frequent.
>
>> On the other hand field current with alternator stopped
>> is 3.45A and appears to be next to nothing when running at
>> 3,000RPM and above. 5A breaker. Still working on data
>> logging to figure it out.
>
> I would start by replacing the breaker . . .
> your breaker may be 'soft'. Maybe upsize to
> 7A. Better yet, put the smaller pulley back on.
Already replaced the breaker. New rectifier bridge and regulator in
alternator.
Hate the idea of disconnecting the OV crowbar.
My plan is to improve data logging to detect the real cause.
Very recently I installed four current sensors (Kitplane article May 17,
2019) and log their output every second: Engine bus, Main bus,
Alternator field and Alternator output. They are not what I hoped for.
Didn't realize how sensitive they are to other magnetic fields. Mounted
near battery a few inches from alternator. I may start a new thread with
my experience with them, if that would be of general interest.
Finn
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ////
> (o o)
> ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
> < Go ahead, make my day . . . >
> < show me where I'm wrong. >
> ================================
>
> In the interest of creative evolution
> of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
> on physics and good practice.
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: OVM-14 MkIII |
>My plan is to improve data logging to detect the real cause.
>
>Very recently I installed four current sensors
>(Kitplane article May 17, 2019) and log their
>output every second:=EF=BD Engine bus, Main bus,
>Alternator field and Alternator output. They are
>not what I hoped for. Didn't realize how
>sensitive they are to other magnetic fields.
>Mounted near battery a few inches from
>alternator. I may start a new thread with my
>experience with them, if that would be of general interest.
I downloaded May 2019 Kitplanes and couldn't find the article.
Can you refine the source citation?
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=======
=
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
========================
========
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Super Simple Solution to an OVM Trip Indicator |
Using a latching relay, about $2.=C2- See attached (quick and dirty) sche
matic.
No mods to OVM required.
PS
I tried to post this message with the schematic in an attached PDF but it w
as rejected by the List server.=C2- Kind of odd since I posted an attache
d PDF yesterday.
Anyway...=C2- Here's a link to the schematic on Google Drive: OVMTripIndi
cator_SA.pdf
|
|
| |
OVMTripIndicator_SA.pdf
|
|
|
Message 11
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| Subject: | Test - PDF Attachment |
Apologies and please disregard,
This is only a test for an attached PDF
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Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Test - PDF Attachment |
The attachment came through for me
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
On Thu, Sep 21, 2023 at 6:30 PM, Jeff Luckey<jluckey@pacbell.net> wrote: Apologies
and please disregard,
This is only a test for an attached PDF
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: OVM-14 MkIII |
At 11:38 AM 9/21/2023, you wrote:
>Neal - yes, latching is essential and my sketch assumes that it is
>possible. (and I believe that Bob confirmed that)
I'm lost . . . with the crowbar OV management
system, an OV event triggers a low resistance
load downstream of the alternator field breaker
forcing it to open thus depriving the alternator
of field excitation.
This even is inherently latching . . . the breaker
is not going to close itself. A light wired across
the open breaker would illuminate until the
breaker is re-closed.
I'm not seeing value in adding circuitry to
sense/latch based on the ov event.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: OVM-14 MkIII |
On 9/21/2023 5:28 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>> My plan is to improve data logging to detect the real cause.
>>
>> Very recently I installed four current sensors (Kitplane article May
>> 17, 2019) and log their output every second: Engine bus, Main bus,
>> Alternator field and Alternator output. They are not what I hoped
>> for. Didn't realize how sensitive they are to other magnetic fields.
>> Mounted near battery a few inches from alternator. I may start a new
>> thread with my experience with them, if that would be of general
>> interest.
>
> I downloaded May 2019 Kitplanes and couldn't find the article.
> Can you refine the source citation?
>
> Bob . . .
>
"Hall of Fame" article by Jim Weir May 17, 2019. In Kitplanes July 2019 mag.
Attached my version. The four outputs go to analog inputs on an Arduino
Mega 2590 and a SDRAM shield for logging. Not shown the hall sensors
also fed by the Mega 2590's 5V power output. But shouldn't I start a new
thread for this?
Finn
Message 15
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| Subject: | Trying to register |
I tried to register a while back but got no response.
Can you help?
Jeff Holdridge
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Practical data acquisition |
>"Hall of Fame" article by Jim Weir=EF=BD May 17,
>2019. In Kitplanes July 2019 mag.
>
>Attached my version. The four outputs go to
>analog inputs on an Arduino Mega 2590 and a
>SDRAM shield for logging. Not shown the hall
>sensors also fed by the Mega 2590's 5V power
>output. But shouldn't I start a new thread for this?
Yes. I've revised the subject. I'll go look
up the Kitplanes piece.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=======
=
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
========================
========
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: OVM-14 MkIII |
I posted this under a new title but I should have posted in this thread...
Simple "OVM has Fired" Idiot Light
Here's a circuit that does the trick using a $2 latching relay.=C2- Pleas
e check it for errors.=C2- I just corrected a few and re-sent the latest
version to Google Drive.
See OVMTripIndicator_SA.pdf
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|
| |
OVMTripIndicator_SA.pdf
|
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|
On Thursday, September 21, 2023 at 05:15:46 PM PDT, Robert L. Nuckolls,
III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
At 11:38 AM 9/21/2023, you wrote:
Neal - yes, latching isessential and my sketch assumes that it is possible.
=C2- (and I believethat Bob confirmed that)
=C2- I'm lost . . . with the crowbar OV management
=C2- system, an OV event triggers a low resistance
=C2- load downstream of the alternator field breaker
=C2- forcing it to open thus depriving the alternator
=C2- of field excitation.
=C2- This even is inherently latching . . . the breaker
=C2- is not going to close itself. A light wired across
=C2- the open breaker would illuminate until the
=C2- breaker is re-closed.
=C2- I'm not seeing value in adding circuitry to
=C2- sense/latch based on the ov event.
=C2- Bob . . .
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2
-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-////
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2
-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-(o o)
=C2-=C2- ===========o00o=(_)=o00o====
=====
=C2-=C2- < Go ahead, make my day . . .=C2-=C2- >
=C2-=C2- < show me where I'm wrong.=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2->
=C2-=C2- ====================
============
=C2-
=C2-=C2- In the interest of creative evolution
=C2-=C2- of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
=C2-=C2- on physics and good practice.
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Practical data acquisition |
On 9/21/2023 9:03 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>> "Hall of Fame" article by Jim Weir May 17, 2019. In Kitplanes July
>> 2019 mag.
>>
>> Attached my version. The four outputs go to analog inputs on an
>> Arduino Mega 2590 and a SDRAM shield for logging. Not shown the hall
>> sensors also fed by the Mega 2590's 5V power output. But shouldn't I
>> start a new thread for this?
>
> Yes. I've revised the subject. I'll go look
> up the Kitplanes piece.
>
> Bob . . .
>
Thanks Bob. But let me start a new thread (subject) when I've pulled the
cowling and taken some pictures.
Finn
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: OVM-14 MkIII |
Just send me back to my corner and crayon snacks =F0=9F=98=8A.
I looked at the proposed circuit, but didn=99t study it, and in not studyin
g, didn=99t grok it =93 I can look at the simplest of schematics for an eter
nity and still not get it.=C2- Not pairing the words with the proposed schemat
ic, I imagined one light, multiple functions (I seem to remember a device (L
R3x, maybe?) =C2-that could set a lamp ON for over-voltage, blinking for low v
oltage).
Mea Culpa didn=99t mean to roll a grenade.
Neal
At 11:38 AM 9/21/2023, you wrote:
Neal - yes, latching is essential and my sketch assumes that it is possible
. (and I believe that Bob confirmed that)
I'm lost . . . with the crowbar OV management
system, an OV event triggers a low resistance
load downstream of the alternator field breaker
forcing it to open thus depriving the alternator
of field excitation.
This even is inherently latching . . . the breaker
is not going to close itself. A light wired across
the open breaker would illuminate until the
breaker is re-closed.
I'm not seeing value in adding circuitry to
sense/latch based on the ov event.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
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