Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 10:33 AM - #2 or #4 AWG? (Jeff Luckey)
2. 12:27 PM - Re: #2 or #4 AWG? (Alec Myers)
3. 12:28 PM - 3-phase current monitor (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 12:45 PM - Re: #2 or #4 AWG? (Charlie England)
5. 01:31 PM - Re: #2 or #4 AWG? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 01:48 PM - Re: 3-phase current monitor (Eric Page)
7. 03:10 PM - Re: #2 or #4 AWG? (Jeff Luckey)
8. 06:00 PM - Re: 3-phase current monitor (Finn Lassen)
9. 06:40 PM - Re: #2 or #4 AWG? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 06:57 PM - Re: 3-phase current monitor (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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Group,
I am installing a battery behind the baggage compartment in an RV-14.=C2-
It is the second battery in a two-battery system but will be used for cran
king in case of emergency.=C2- Length of run is ~15 ft. (there is also a
battery on the firewall that will normally be used for cranking).=C2- Bot
h batts are PC-680s (which has a new part #: ODS-AGM16L).
Trying to decide between #2 or #4 AWG Welding Cable.=C2- Leaning towards
#2.
Any thoughts or considerations?
TIA,
-Jeff
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: #2 or #4 AWG? |
In the context of a previous discussion on insulation material, what is welding
wire insulated with? What is its fire-resistance status, and fume potential?
On Oct 9, 2023, at 13:33, Jeff Luckey <jluckey@pacbell.net> wrote:
Group,
I am installing a battery behind the baggage compartment in an RV-14. It is the
second battery in a two-battery system but will be used for cranking in case
of emergency. Length of run is ~15 ft. (there is also a battery on the firewall
that will normally be used for cranking). Both batts are PC-680s (which has
a new part #: ODS-AGM16L).
Trying to decide between #2 or #4 AWG Welding Cable. Leaning towards #2.
Any thoughts or considerations?
TIA,
-Jeff
Message 3
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| Subject: | 3-phase current monitor |
See if the attached suggests a path toward your
design goals for monitoring 3-dynamo health:
See also https://www.sparkfun.com/datasheets/BreakoutBoards/0712.pdf
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: #2 or #4 AWG? |
The specs are available for most welding wire's insulation. Temp is likely
to be at least as good as Tefzel; welders expect it to be dragged across
red-hot steel fairly frequently. I suspect that nasty fumes are going to
be there regardless of material, if you mess up and get the wire hot
enough to burn the insulation, but if it gets that hot, you've got more
immediate issues with the fire that's already burning. Worst thing about
welding cable for me personally is that the insulation is so thick; it just
consumes a lot more space. But I still prefer it over fat A/N wire; all its
other characteristics are better, for my purposes.
On Mon, Oct 9, 2023 at 2:29=AFPM Alec Myers <alec@alecmyers.com> wrot
e:
>
> In the context of a previous discussion on insulation material, what is
> welding wire insulated with? What is its fire-resistance status, and fume
> potential?
>
>
> On Oct 9, 2023, at 13:33, Jeff Luckey <jluckey@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> Group,
>
>
> I am installing a battery behind the baggage compartment in an RV-14. It
> is the second battery in a two-battery system but will be used for cranki
ng
> in case of emergency. Length of run is ~15 ft. (there is also a battery
on
> the firewall that will normally be used for cranking). Both batts are
> PC-680s (which has a new part #: ODS-AGM16L).
>
> Trying to decide between #2 or #4 AWG Welding Cable. Leaning towards #2.
>
> Any thoughts or considerations?
>
>
> TIA,
>
> -Jeff
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
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>
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: #2 or #4 AWG? |
At 12:33 PM 10/9/2023, you wrote:
>Group,
>
>
>I am installing a battery behind the baggage compartment in an
>RV-14. It is the second battery in a two-battery system but will be
>used for cranking in case of emergency. Length of run is ~15 ft.
>(there is also a battery on the firewall that will normally be used
>for cranking). Both batts are PC-680s (which has a new part #: ODS-AGM16L).
>
>Trying to decide between #2 or #4 AWG Welding Cable. Leaning towards #2.
>
>Any thoughts or considerations?
2awg 0.16 mOhm/Ft
4awg 0.24 mOhm/Ft
Assume 15' wire
2awg 0.16 x 15 = 2.4 mOhm wire path
4awg 0.24 x 15 = 3.6 mOhm wire path
Assume 200A load:
2awg 200A x 2.4 mOhm = 0.48V drop
4awg 200A x 3.6 mOhm = 0.72V drop
4awg will drop ~0.24 Volts MORE than the 2awg
Of course, there are other resistances that add to
total path drop but the DIFFERENCE between 2
and 4awg is pretty small.
What kind of failure does your FMEA anticipate
that would be mitigated by the second battery?
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: 3-phase current monitor |
How funny -- we were both working on this at the same time.
Here's what I came up with. LED is off under normal ops and illuminates if a phase
goes missing.
-Eric
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=511576#511576
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/missing_phase_detector_173.pdf
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: #2 or #4 AWG? |
Bob,
Thanks for the numbers.
The 15 feet is one way, therefore it is actually 30 feet round trip, which
doubles your numbers to .48 volts more drop using #4.
You used 200A.=C2- Is that typical starter current?=C2- I typically use
250A.=C2- Is 200A a more accurate assumption?=C2- In this aircraft we
will be cranking a brand new IO-390.
I updated your calcs and did it for both 200 & 300 amps:
The scenario in question is as follows:
1. You have attempted to start a flooded or cold engine and exhausted the p
rimary starting battery on the firewall.2. Now, you can engage the "back-up
" battery for cranking. (with a paralleling solenoid that is designed into
the system)
Is the .72 volts significant is this case?
Battery voltage during typical cranking is ~8.5 volts --- that's more of a
question 'cuz I don't know for sure.
But, if that is correct then .72/8.5 = 6% at 300A.=C2- Is that signific
ant in this scenario?
Seems like we are pretty far down the rabbit hole... ;)
-Jeff
On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 01:37:32 PM PDT, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
<nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
At 12:33 PM 10/9/2023, you wrote:
Group,
I am installing a battery behind the baggage compartment in anRV-14.=C2-
It is the second battery in a two-battery system but will beused for cranki
ng in case of emergency.=C2- Length of run is ~15 ft.(there is also a bat
tery on the firewall that will normally be used forcranking).=C2- Both ba
tts are PC-680s (which has a new part #:ODS-AGM16L).
Trying to decide between #2 or #4 AWG Welding Cable.=C2- Leaningtowards #
2.
Any thoughts or considerations?
2awg=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- 0.16mOhm/Ft=C2-=C2-=C2
-
4awg=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- 0.24 mOhm/Ft
Assume 15' wire
2awg=C2-=C2- 0.16 x 15 = 2.4 mOhm wire path
4awg=C2-=C2- 0.24 x 15 = 3.6 mOhm wire path
Assume 200A load:
2awg=C2-=C2-=C2- 200A x 2.4 mOhm = 0.48V drop
4awg=C2-=C2-=C2- 200A x 3.6 mOhm = 0.72V drop
4awg will drop ~0.24 Volts MORE than the 2awg
Of course, there are other resistances that add to
total path drop but the DIFFERENCE between 2
and 4awg is pretty small.
What kind of failure does your FMEA anticipate
that would be mitigated by the second battery?
=C2- Bob . . .
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2
-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-////
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2
-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-(o o)
=C2-=C2- ===========o00o=(_)=o00o====
=====
=C2-=C2- < Go ahead, make my day . . .=C2-=C2- >
=C2-=C2- < show me where I'm wrong.=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2->
=C2-=C2- ====================
============
=C2-
=C2-=C2- In the interest of creative evolution
=C2-=C2- of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
=C2-=C2- on physics and good practice.
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: 3-phase current monitor |
Interesting device. $3.79 each at DigiKey. Amazing that with boards and
connectors only $3.33 ea. on Amazon.
Tempted to insert in paths to my fuse blocks and alternator field, but
would introduce additional possible points of failure.
Finn
On 10/9/2023 3:28 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> See if the attached suggests a path toward your
> design goals for monitoring 3-dynamo health:
>
> See also https://www.sparkfun.com/datasheets/BreakoutBoards/0712.pdf
>
>
> <https://www.sparkfun.com/datasheets/BreakoutBoards/0712.pdf>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ////
> (o o)
> ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
> < Go ahead, make my day . . . >
> < show me where I'm wrong. >
> ================================
>
> In the interest of creative evolution
> of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
> on physics and good practice.
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: #2 or #4 AWG? |
At 05:09 PM 10/9/2023, you wrote:
>Bob,
>
>
>Thanks for the numbers.
>
>The 15 feet is one way, therefore it is actually 30 feet round trip,
>which doubles your numbers to .48 volts more drop using #4.
You're not using the airframe as a ground return?
>You used 200A. Is that typical starter current? I typically use
>250A. Is 200A a more accurate assumption? In this aircraft we will
>be cranking a brand new IO-390.
It's a wag driven by numerous variables
of temperature, engine condition, etc.
The purpose of the study was to illustrate
the DIFFERENCE between the two conductors in
a constant condition.
If you constantly used both batteries to crank,
then they will share the load and current in
the rear battery path will be less than 1/2
of total due to the longer conductor.
>I updated your calcs and did it for both 200 & 300 amps:
>
>Inline image
>
>
>The scenario in question is as follows:
>
>1. You have attempted to start a flooded or cold engine and
>exhausted the primary starting battery on the firewall.
>2. Now, you can engage the "back-up" battery for cranking. (with a
>paralleling solenoid that is designed into the system)
>
>Is the .72 volts significant is this case?
>
>Battery voltage during typical cranking is ~8.5 volts --- that's
>more of a question 'cuz I don't know for sure.
>
>But, if that is correct then .72/8.5 = 6% at 300A. Is that
>significant in this scenario?
>
>
>Seems like we are pretty far down the rabbit hole... ;)
Agreed. If you HAVE two batteries then I
would recommend using BOTH for cranking
all the time (Z-14 philosophy from 20+
years ago).
Battery life is predicated on a complex model
that accounts for depth of discharge, rates
of discharge and discharge cycles. Running
the batteries in parallel to crank will get
you best return on investment for the
constellation of batteries.
But if you've got a particularly difficult
cranking situation, it's ALWAYS better to
use ground power assist . . . even it it's
just a battery cart or even jumper cables to
a modern vehicle. That car battery + alternator
is more than 2x the energy reservoir of your
ship's battery(ies). A successful hard start
is greatly enhanced by keeping the cranking
voltage high . . . the idea of planning
for a 'flat battery' contingency kinda smacks
of poor design/protocol.
When we ran K1K1, our renters were advised
to ALWAYS use available ground power if their
cranking prospects were compromised. We
would deduct the ground power fee from their
rent!
The extra weight plus time/labor/expense of maintaining
TWO batteries to cover what should be a rare event
is . . . well . . . A set of jumper cables
with ground power plug is a lot less expensive
and lighter than that extra battery installation.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: 3-phase current monitor |
At 08:00 PM 10/9/2023, you wrote:
>Interesting device. $3.79 each at DigiKey. Amazing that with boards and
>connectors only $3.33 ea. on Amazon.
Yeah, an they come already MOUNTED in
a form factor the DIY fabricator can
work with. Those 8-pin, SOIC chips and
associated board layouts are really
'fun' to work with!
I've got some coming to fiddle with a bit
before I forward them on to you to evaluate
in your DIY DAS project.
>Tempted to insert in paths=C2 to my fuse blocks
>and alternator field, but would introduce
>additional possible points of failure.
Yeah . . . I think this is mostly an academic
exercise than a practical solution for
a 'problem' with very small probability of
occurrence -and- easily noted by other
instrumentation that should already be
in the airplane.
The most useful of in-flight monitors for
electrical system the low voltage warning
light. It that light is OUT, then probability
of comfortable completion of flight is
good.
The other bells-n-whistles are best
reserved for figuring why the light is
on AFTER landing whether or not they're
on the panel or in your toolbox.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=======
=
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
========================
========
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
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