---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 10/09/23: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 10:33 AM - #2 or #4 AWG? (Jeff Luckey) 2. 12:27 PM - Re: #2 or #4 AWG? (Alec Myers) 3. 12:28 PM - 3-phase current monitor (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 12:45 PM - Re: #2 or #4 AWG? (Charlie England) 5. 01:31 PM - Re: #2 or #4 AWG? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 01:48 PM - Re: 3-phase current monitor (Eric Page) 7. 03:10 PM - Re: #2 or #4 AWG? (Jeff Luckey) 8. 06:00 PM - Re: 3-phase current monitor (Finn Lassen) 9. 06:40 PM - Re: #2 or #4 AWG? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 06:57 PM - Re: 3-phase current monitor (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 10:33:46 AM PST US From: Jeff Luckey Subject: AeroElectric-List: #2 or #4 AWG? Group, I am installing a battery behind the baggage compartment in an RV-14.=C2- It is the second battery in a two-battery system but will be used for cran king in case of emergency.=C2- Length of run is ~15 ft. (there is also a battery on the firewall that will normally be used for cranking).=C2- Bot h batts are PC-680s (which has a new part #: ODS-AGM16L). Trying to decide between #2 or #4 AWG Welding Cable.=C2- Leaning towards #2. Any thoughts or considerations? TIA, -Jeff ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:27:07 PM PST US From: Alec Myers Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: #2 or #4 AWG? In the context of a previous discussion on insulation material, what is welding wire insulated with? What is its fire-resistance status, and fume potential? On Oct 9, 2023, at 13:33, Jeff Luckey wrote: Group, I am installing a battery behind the baggage compartment in an RV-14. It is the second battery in a two-battery system but will be used for cranking in case of emergency. Length of run is ~15 ft. (there is also a battery on the firewall that will normally be used for cranking). Both batts are PC-680s (which has a new part #: ODS-AGM16L). Trying to decide between #2 or #4 AWG Welding Cable. Leaning towards #2. Any thoughts or considerations? TIA, -Jeff ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:28:58 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: 3-phase current monitor See if the attached suggests a path toward your design goals for monitoring 3-dynamo health: See also https://www.sparkfun.com/datasheets/BreakoutBoards/0712.pdf Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================ In the interest of creative evolution of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based on physics and good practice. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:45:50 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: #2 or #4 AWG? The specs are available for most welding wire's insulation. Temp is likely to be at least as good as Tefzel; welders expect it to be dragged across red-hot steel fairly frequently. I suspect that nasty fumes are going to be there regardless of material, if you mess up and get the wire hot enough to burn the insulation, but if it gets that hot, you've got more immediate issues with the fire that's already burning. Worst thing about welding cable for me personally is that the insulation is so thick; it just consumes a lot more space. But I still prefer it over fat A/N wire; all its other characteristics are better, for my purposes. On Mon, Oct 9, 2023 at 2:29=AFPM Alec Myers wrot e: > > In the context of a previous discussion on insulation material, what is > welding wire insulated with? What is its fire-resistance status, and fume > potential? > > > On Oct 9, 2023, at 13:33, Jeff Luckey wrote: > > Group, > > > I am installing a battery behind the baggage compartment in an RV-14. It > is the second battery in a two-battery system but will be used for cranki ng > in case of emergency. Length of run is ~15 ft. (there is also a battery on > the firewall that will normally be used for cranking). Both batts are > PC-680s (which has a new part #: ODS-AGM16L). > > Trying to decide between #2 or #4 AWG Welding Cable. Leaning towards #2. > > Any thoughts or considerations? > > > TIA, > > -Jeff > > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > Virus-free.www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:31:48 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: #2 or #4 AWG? At 12:33 PM 10/9/2023, you wrote: >Group, > > >I am installing a battery behind the baggage compartment in an >RV-14. It is the second battery in a two-battery system but will be >used for cranking in case of emergency. Length of run is ~15 ft. >(there is also a battery on the firewall that will normally be used >for cranking). Both batts are PC-680s (which has a new part #: ODS-AGM16L). > >Trying to decide between #2 or #4 AWG Welding Cable. Leaning towards #2. > >Any thoughts or considerations? 2awg 0.16 mOhm/Ft 4awg 0.24 mOhm/Ft Assume 15' wire 2awg 0.16 x 15 = 2.4 mOhm wire path 4awg 0.24 x 15 = 3.6 mOhm wire path Assume 200A load: 2awg 200A x 2.4 mOhm = 0.48V drop 4awg 200A x 3.6 mOhm = 0.72V drop 4awg will drop ~0.24 Volts MORE than the 2awg Of course, there are other resistances that add to total path drop but the DIFFERENCE between 2 and 4awg is pretty small. What kind of failure does your FMEA anticipate that would be mitigated by the second battery? Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================ In the interest of creative evolution of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based on physics and good practice. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:48:37 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: 3-phase current monitor From: "Eric Page" How funny -- we were both working on this at the same time. Here's what I came up with. LED is off under normal ops and illuminates if a phase goes missing. -Eric Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=511576#511576 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/missing_phase_detector_173.pdf ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:10:11 PM PST US From: Jeff Luckey Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: #2 or #4 AWG? Bob, Thanks for the numbers. The 15 feet is one way, therefore it is actually 30 feet round trip, which doubles your numbers to .48 volts more drop using #4. You used 200A.=C2- Is that typical starter current?=C2- I typically use 250A.=C2- Is 200A a more accurate assumption?=C2- In this aircraft we will be cranking a brand new IO-390. I updated your calcs and did it for both 200 & 300 amps: The scenario in question is as follows: 1. You have attempted to start a flooded or cold engine and exhausted the p rimary starting battery on the firewall.2. Now, you can engage the "back-up " battery for cranking. (with a paralleling solenoid that is designed into the system) Is the .72 volts significant is this case? Battery voltage during typical cranking is ~8.5 volts --- that's more of a question 'cuz I don't know for sure. But, if that is correct then .72/8.5 = 6% at 300A.=C2- Is that signific ant in this scenario? Seems like we are pretty far down the rabbit hole... ;) -Jeff On Monday, October 9, 2023 at 01:37:32 PM PDT, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: At 12:33 PM 10/9/2023, you wrote: Group, I am installing a battery behind the baggage compartment in anRV-14.=C2- It is the second battery in a two-battery system but will beused for cranki ng in case of emergency.=C2- Length of run is ~15 ft.(there is also a bat tery on the firewall that will normally be used forcranking).=C2- Both ba tts are PC-680s (which has a new part #:ODS-AGM16L). Trying to decide between #2 or #4 AWG Welding Cable.=C2- Leaningtowards # 2. Any thoughts or considerations? 2awg=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- 0.16mOhm/Ft=C2-=C2-=C2 - 4awg=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- 0.24 mOhm/Ft Assume 15' wire 2awg=C2-=C2- 0.16 x 15 = 2.4 mOhm wire path 4awg=C2-=C2- 0.24 x 15 = 3.6 mOhm wire path Assume 200A load: 2awg=C2-=C2-=C2- 200A x 2.4 mOhm = 0.48V drop 4awg=C2-=C2-=C2- 200A x 3.6 mOhm = 0.72V drop 4awg will drop ~0.24 Volts MORE than the 2awg Of course, there are other resistances that add to total path drop but the DIFFERENCE between 2 and 4awg is pretty small. What kind of failure does your FMEA anticipate that would be mitigated by the second battery? =C2- Bob . . . =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2 -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-//// =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2 -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-(o o) =C2-=C2- ===========o00o=(_)=o00o==== ===== =C2-=C2- < Go ahead, make my day . . .=C2-=C2- > =C2-=C2- < show me where I'm wrong.=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-> =C2-=C2- ==================== ============ =C2- =C2-=C2- In the interest of creative evolution =C2-=C2- of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based =C2-=C2- on physics and good practice. iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAygAAADaCAYAAABNRmZ+AAAgAElEQVR4Xu2dPYguS3rfayIFNsIg MN5dGYHBzDu5We6C4SbKNpg5oHCDo0SLBEaBgpm7CHY32TsTKBIsrALrgBQKZk6wBoHQzmLDHoQC Z/MOBoODvQsGwyJQYByMu/rrra6u6q6urqe6euY3cLlnpqufqv49T33866P77Ne//vWL4gcCEIAA BCAAAQhAAAIQgEABBM4QKAV4gSJAAAIQgAAEIAABCEAAAjUBBAqBAAEIQAACEIAABCAAAQgUQwCB UowrKAgEIAABCEAAAhCAAAQgMCtQvvjiC/Xll1++GVJv7XlzOha2+WjDWo41bOXYasvwTc/3P/74 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sqyg5MTNoECWNnzT84VpeqYlWMSvJXiBMkgQQKAgUCTiihWUrFRZQcmNm0GBLHH4pucL0/RMS7CI X0vwAmWQIIBAQaBIxBUCJStVBEpu3AwKZInDNz1fmKZnWoJF/FqCFyiDBAEECgJFIq4QKFmpIlBy 42ZQIEscvun5wjQ90xIs4tcSvEAZJAggUBAoEnGFQMlKFYGSGzeDAlni8E3PF6bpmZZgEb+W4AXK IEEAgYJAkYgrBEpWqgiU3LgZFMgSh296vjBNz7QEi/i1BC9QBgkCCBQEikRcIVCyUkWg5MbNoECW OHzT84VpeqYlWMSvJXiBMkgQQKAgUCTiCoGSlSoCJTduBgWyxOGbni9M0zMtwSJ+LcELlEGCAAIF gSIRVwiUrFQRKLlxMyiQJQ7f9Hxhmp5pCRbxawleoAwSBBAoCBSJuEKgZKWKQMmNm0GBLHH4pucL 0/RMS7CIX0vwAmWQIIBAQaBIxBUCJStVBEpu3AwKZInDNz1fmKZnWoJF/FqCFyiDBIFaoDw+Pr5I GMcmBCAAAQhAAAIQgAAEIACBpQTOXqqfqZvemkJ/a8+7NGDWpIftGnrL7oX1Ml5LUsN2Ca3laeG7 nNncHTCdI7TP6/h1n36j1PME2OLlYESFnw+c2BSwjSW3/D5YL2cWegdsQ0nFpYNvHDcmGtNzK90i daV0D1G+WAIIFARKbOxE3UdjGoUt6iZYR2ELugm2QZiiE8E3Gp33RpimZ1qCRfxaghcogwQBBAoC RSKu6CSzUnVnRscl5wTYyrHVluGbni9M0zMtwSJ+LcELlEGCAAIFgSIRVwiUrFQRKLlxMyiQJQ7f 9Hxhmp5pCRbxawleoAwSBHRs/3/jOxrWMkExZgAAAABJRU5ErkJggg= ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:00:36 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 3-phase current monitor From: Finn Lassen Interesting device. $3.79 each at DigiKey. Amazing that with boards and connectors only $3.33 ea. on Amazon. Tempted to insert in paths to my fuse blocks and alternator field, but would introduce additional possible points of failure. Finn On 10/9/2023 3:28 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > See if the attached suggests a path toward your > design goals for monitoring 3-dynamo health: > > See also https://www.sparkfun.com/datasheets/BreakoutBoards/0712.pdf > > > > > Bob . . . > > //// > (o o) > ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== > < Go ahead, make my day . . . > > < show me where I'm wrong. > > ================================ > > In the interest of creative evolution > of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based > on physics and good practice. > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:40:12 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: #2 or #4 AWG? At 05:09 PM 10/9/2023, you wrote: >Bob, > > >Thanks for the numbers. > >The 15 feet is one way, therefore it is actually 30 feet round trip, >which doubles your numbers to .48 volts more drop using #4. You're not using the airframe as a ground return? >You used 200A. Is that typical starter current? I typically use >250A. Is 200A a more accurate assumption? In this aircraft we will >be cranking a brand new IO-390. It's a wag driven by numerous variables of temperature, engine condition, etc. The purpose of the study was to illustrate the DIFFERENCE between the two conductors in a constant condition. If you constantly used both batteries to crank, then they will share the load and current in the rear battery path will be less than 1/2 of total due to the longer conductor. >I updated your calcs and did it for both 200 & 300 amps: > >Inline image > > >The scenario in question is as follows: > >1. You have attempted to start a flooded or cold engine and >exhausted the primary starting battery on the firewall. >2. Now, you can engage the "back-up" battery for cranking. (with a >paralleling solenoid that is designed into the system) > >Is the .72 volts significant is this case? > >Battery voltage during typical cranking is ~8.5 volts --- that's >more of a question 'cuz I don't know for sure. > >But, if that is correct then .72/8.5 = 6% at 300A. Is that >significant in this scenario? > > >Seems like we are pretty far down the rabbit hole... ;) Agreed. If you HAVE two batteries then I would recommend using BOTH for cranking all the time (Z-14 philosophy from 20+ years ago). Battery life is predicated on a complex model that accounts for depth of discharge, rates of discharge and discharge cycles. Running the batteries in parallel to crank will get you best return on investment for the constellation of batteries. But if you've got a particularly difficult cranking situation, it's ALWAYS better to use ground power assist . . . even it it's just a battery cart or even jumper cables to a modern vehicle. That car battery + alternator is more than 2x the energy reservoir of your ship's battery(ies). A successful hard start is greatly enhanced by keeping the cranking voltage high . . . the idea of planning for a 'flat battery' contingency kinda smacks of poor design/protocol. When we ran K1K1, our renters were advised to ALWAYS use available ground power if their cranking prospects were compromised. We would deduct the ground power fee from their rent! The extra weight plus time/labor/expense of maintaining TWO batteries to cover what should be a rare event is . . . well . . . A set of jumper cables with ground power plug is a lot less expensive and lighter than that extra battery installation. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================ In the interest of creative evolution of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based on physics and good practice. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:57:03 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 3-phase current monitor At 08:00 PM 10/9/2023, you wrote: >Interesting device. $3.79 each at DigiKey. Amazing that with boards and >connectors only $3.33 ea. on Amazon. Yeah, an they come already MOUNTED in a form factor the DIY fabricator can work with. Those 8-pin, SOIC chips and associated board layouts are really 'fun' to work with! I've got some coming to fiddle with a bit before I forward them on to you to evaluate in your DIY DAS project. >Tempted to insert in paths=C2 to my fuse blocks >and alternator field, but would introduce >additional possible points of failure. Yeah . . . I think this is mostly an academic exercise than a practical solution for a 'problem' with very small probability of occurrence -and- easily noted by other instrumentation that should already be in the airplane. The most useful of in-flight monitors for electrical system the low voltage warning light. It that light is OUT, then probability of comfortable completion of flight is good. The other bells-n-whistles are best reserved for figuring why the light is on AFTER landing whether or not they're on the panel or in your toolbox. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======= = < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ======================== ======== In the interest of creative evolution of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based on physics and good practice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.