Today's Message Index:
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1. 08:58 AM - Non-aero GFCI question (Dave Saylor)
2. 10:17 AM - Re: Non-aero GFCI question (Mark Milgrom)
3. 10:26 AM - Re: Non-aero GFCI question (Mark Milgrom)
4. 02:00 PM - Re: Non-aero GFCI question (Charlie England)
5. 02:56 PM - Re: Non-aero GFCI question (Dave Saylor)
6. 04:55 PM - Re: Non-aero GFCI question (Charlie England)
7. 06:38 PM - Re: Non-aero GFCI question (user9253)
8. 06:44 PM - Re: Non-aero GFCI question (Finn Lassen)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Non-aero GFCI question |
I have an outdoor circuit on a GFCI breaker that trips regularly after
minutes/hours/days and always without any known load on the circuit. I'll
come back to use an outlet, and find that the GFCI has tripped. The breaker
is in an outbuilding subpanel with several other breakers. The other
breakers all behave normally. There are four outlets on the breaker, only
one of which is regularly in use.
The circuit started with a standard breaker and had an integrated GFCI
outlet to meet the outdoor protection requirement. I replaced that outlet
with an unprotected outdoor type, and changed the breaker to GFCI, but the
problem persists.
Here's what I've tried and observed:
*Cleaned out and insect-sealed all the various junction boxes. Some were
infested but no overall effect.
*Replaced the wiring from the breaker to the outlets. It had an
underground section, which was replaced with above-ground wiring. I can
now literally look at every inch of wire.
*Isolated each of the outlets from the others. Same problem no matter
which outlet is active.
*Same behavior with the standard breaker and the new GFCI breaker. I think
that should rule out the breaker.
*Same behavior in dry or wet weather.
Can someone tell me if a problem upstream of the breaker, like a faulty
ground, would cause this? Now grasping at straws, I'm considering
installing a dedicated ground rod at the outbuilding. It's about 250' from
the main panel.
Any insights are greatly appreciated. Thanks for the non-aero attention.
--Dave
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Non-aero GFCI question |
Hello Dave,
I recently had had two electric vehicle chargers installed in my garage, so while
the electrician was here I asked him to replace the battered 60-year-old 120
volt 15 amp non-GFCI receptacles in my garage with modern GFCI versions, which
he did.
I watched him install each GFCI and picked his brain along the way, and gleaned
two nuggets of information about GFCIs. The first nugget is that GFCIs are susceptible
to nuisance tripping if the string of GFCIs on a circuit are not properly
wired line to load, line to load. The second nugget is that garage door
motors should never be plugged into a GFCI (Garage door motors dont play nice
with GFCI according to him).
I am definitely not an electrician, and I dont fully understand everything he explained
to me, but I think I am accurately relaying what he said. Maybe one
of those two nuggets might explain your nuisance tripping. Good luck.
Mark Milgrom
> On Oct 31, 2023, at 8:59AM, Dave Saylor <saylor.dave@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I have an outdoor circuit on a GFCI breaker that trips regularly after minutes/hours/days
and always without any known load on the circuit. I'll come back
to use an outlet, and find that the GFCI has tripped. The breaker is in an outbuilding
subpanel with several other breakers. The other breakers all behave
normally. There are four outlets on the breaker, only one of which is regularly
in use.
>
> The circuit started with a standard breaker and had an integrated GFCI outlet
to meet the outdoor protection requirement. I replaced that outlet with an unprotected
outdoor type, and changed the breaker to GFCI, but the problem persists.
>
> Here's what I've tried and observed:
>
> *Cleaned out and insect-sealed all the various junction boxes. Some were infested
but no overall effect.
> *Replaced the wiring from the breaker to the outlets. It had an underground
section, which was replaced with above-ground wiring. I can now literally look
at every inch of wire.
> *Isolated each of the outlets from the others. Same problem no matter which
outlet is active.
> *Same behavior with the standard breaker and the new GFCI breaker. I think that
should rule out the breaker.
> *Same behavior in dry or wet weather.
>
> Can someone tell me if a problem upstream of the breaker, like a faulty ground,
would cause this? Now grasping at straws, I'm considering installing a dedicated
ground rod at the outbuilding. It's about 250' from the main panel.
>
> Any insights are greatly appreciated. Thanks for the non-aero attention.
>
> --Dave
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Non-aero GFCI question |
After re-reading my post below, let me clarify the second nugget.
I wrote: The second nugget is that garage door motors should never be plugged
into a GFCI (Garage door motors dont play nice with GFCI according to him).
What I should have written is: The second nugget is that a garage door motor should
never be plugged into a receptacle that is part of a circuit that includes
GFCI receptacles. This more accurately captures what my electrician told me.
Mark
> On Oct 31, 2023, at 10:17AM, Mark Milgrom <milgrom@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> Hello Dave,
>
> I recently had had two electric vehicle chargers installed in my garage, so while
the electrician was here I asked him to replace the battered 60-year-old
120 volt 15 amp non-GFCI receptacles in my garage with modern GFCI versions, which
he did.
>
> I watched him install each GFCI and picked his brain along the way, and gleaned
two nuggets of information about GFCIs. The first nugget is that GFCIs are
susceptible to nuisance tripping if the string of GFCIs on a circuit are not
properly wired line to load, line to load. The second nugget is that garage door
motors should never be plugged into a GFCI (Garage door motors dont play nice
with GFCI according to him).
>
> I am definitely not an electrician, and I dont fully understand everything he
explained to me, but I think I am accurately relaying what he said. Maybe one
of those two nuggets might explain your nuisance tripping. Good luck.
>
> Mark Milgrom
>
>> On Oct 31, 2023, at 8:59AM, Dave Saylor <saylor.dave@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I have an outdoor circuit on a GFCI breaker that trips regularly after minutes/hours/days
and always without any known load on the circuit. I'll come back
to use an outlet, and find that the GFCI has tripped. The breaker is in an outbuilding
subpanel with several other breakers. The other breakers all behave
normally. There are four outlets on the breaker, only one of which is regularly
in use.
>>
>> The circuit started with a standard breaker and had an integrated GFCI outlet
to meet the outdoor protection requirement. I replaced that outlet with an
unprotected outdoor type, and changed the breaker to GFCI, but the problem persists.
>>
>> Here's what I've tried and observed:
>>
>> *Cleaned out and insect-sealed all the various junction boxes. Some were infested
but no overall effect.
>> *Replaced the wiring from the breaker to the outlets. It had an underground
section, which was replaced with above-ground wiring. I can now literally look
at every inch of wire.
>> *Isolated each of the outlets from the others. Same problem no matter which
outlet is active.
>> *Same behavior with the standard breaker and the new GFCI breaker. I think
that should rule out the breaker.
>> *Same behavior in dry or wet weather.
>>
>> Can someone tell me if a problem upstream of the breaker, like a faulty ground,
would cause this? Now grasping at straws, I'm considering installing a dedicated
ground rod at the outbuilding. It's about 250' from the main panel.
>>
>> Any insights are greatly appreciated. Thanks for the non-aero attention.
>>
>> --Dave
>>
>>
>>
>>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Non-aero GFCI question |
On 10/31/2023 10:57 AM, Dave Saylor wrote:
> I have an outdoor circuit on a GFCI breaker that trips regularly after
> minutes/hours/days and always without any known load on the circuit.
> I'll come back to use an outlet, and find that theGFCI has tripped.
> The breaker is in an outbuilding subpanel with several other
> breakers. The other breakers all behave normally. There are four
> outlets on the breaker, only one of which is regularly in use.
>
> The circuit started with a standard breaker and had an integrated GFCI
> outlet to meet the outdoor protectionrequirement. I replaced that
> outlet with an unprotected outdoor type, and changed thebreaker to
> GFCI, but the problem persists.
>
> Here's what I've tried and observed:
>
> *Cleaned out and insect-sealed all the various junction boxes. Some
> were infested but no overalleffect.
> *Replaced the wiring from the breaker to the outlets. It had an
> underground section, which was replaced with above-ground wiring. I
> can now literally look at every inch of wire.
> *Isolated each of the outlets from the others. Same problem no matter
> which outlet is active.
> *Same behavior with the standard breaker and the new GFCI breaker. I
> think that should rule out the breaker.
> *Same behavior in dry or wet weather.
>
> Can someone tell me if a problem upstream of the breaker, like a
> faulty ground, would cause this? Now grasping at straws, I'm
> considering installing a dedicated ground rod at the outbuilding.
> It's about 250' from the main panel.
>
> Any insights are greatly appreciated. Thanks for the non-aero attention.
>
> --Dave
>
>
I haven't had much luck finding a nice, concise explanation (with
circles and arrows and description on the back; apologies to Mr.
Guthrie) of GFCIs online. But the name is deceptive. The 'ground fault'
in the name isn't a bad ground; it's a *fault TO ground*. The GFCI
compares current on the 'hot' wire to current on the neutral wire, and
if they don't match perfectly, then some of the current is taking a
different path (a different 'ground') back to the source. The current
following a ground instead of the neutral is what makes the 'ground
fault'. Fluke has a fair description here:
https://www.fluke.com/en-us/learn/blog/grounding/chasing-ghost-trips-in-gfci-protected-circuits
Here's a Fluke article on how to test for leakage. Unfortunately, it
takes a very sensitive ($$$) meter to do it:
https://www.fluke.com/en-us/learn/blog/clamps/leakage-current-measurement-basics
"*Same behavior with the standard breaker and the new GFCI breaker. I
think that should rule out the breaker."
Does that mean, 'standard breaker and GFCI outlet, and the GFCIoutlet
trips'? (If the standard breaker itself is tripping, then there are
bigger issues. ;-) )
Have you tried completely disconnecting the branch circuit from the
GFCI, and give it a few days to see if it trips?
Have you tried a GFCI breaker on a different circuit in the same
subpanel to see if that one will trip, as well?
The only thing that comes to mind 'remotely' is leakage to ground in the
cable between house & outbuilding, but it's hard to visualize how a GFCI
in the outbuilding could see that.
Charlie
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| Subject: | Re: Non-aero GFCI question |
Thank you Charlie. I have some things to check.
"Does that mean, 'standard breaker and GFCI outlet, and the GFCIoutlet
> trips'? (If the standard breaker itself is tripping, then there are
> bigger issues. ;-) )
>
Yep, that's what I meant. When the standard breaker was installed, it
never tripped. But the GFCI outlet downstream of it would trip. Now there
are no GFCI outlets in the branch, but the associated GFCI breaker is
tripping.
I haven't tried the breaker all by itself. I'll give that a shot.
There's another GFCI outlet in the building, and it has tripped before. I
attributed that to an extension cord laying out in the rain. Besides that
one time, the other GFCI seems reliable. But might be worth looking into.
I understand that a single GFCI outlet on a branch will protect the entire
branch. Does that seem right? If that's the case, is the single breaker
providing GFCI protection to the entire subpanel? Maybe I need to broaden
my search for the culprit. So far I've only been searching past the
breaker.
The outbuilding houses water tanks, pressure tank/pump/switches, and a
float switch...plenty of opportunity to get wet. But those items never
trip. Just the outdoor GFCI.
> --
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>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Non-aero GFCI question |
On 10/31/2023 4:55 PM, Dave Saylor wrote:
> Thank you Charlie. I have some things to check.
>
> "Does that mean, 'standard breaker and GFCI outlet, and the
> GFCIoutlet
> trips'? (If the standard breaker itself is tripping, then there are
> bigger issues. ;-) )
>
>
> Yep, that's what I meant. When the standard breaker was installed, it
> never tripped. But the GFCI outlet downstream of it would trip. Now
> there are no GFCI outlets in the branch, but the associated GFCI
> breaker is tripping.
>
> I haven't tried the breaker all by itself. I'll give that a shot.
>
> There's another GFCI outlet in the building, and it has tripped
> before. I attributed that to an extension cord laying out in the
> rain. Besides that one time, the other GFCI seems reliable. But
> might be worth looking into.
>
> I understand that a single GFCI outlet on a branch will protect the
> entire branch. Does that seem right? If that's the case, is the
> single breaker providing GFCI protection to the entire subpanel?
> Maybe I need to broaden my search for the culprit. So far I've only
> been searching past the breaker.
>
> The outbuilding houses water tanks, pressure tank/pump/switches, and a
> float switch...plenty of opportunityto get wet. But those items
> never trip. Just the outdoor GFCI.
My understanding is that a GFCI outlet will 'protect' outlets that are
*downstream* of the GFCI outlet. Normally, it would be the 1st outlet in
the chain, but if for instance a circuit had been run to an interior
outlet, then to an outside outlet that got the GFCI installed, then only
the outdoor outlet and whatever followed it going away from the panel
would be protected.
If yours still trips with all branch wiring disconnected, then this is a
really long shot, but should be fairly simple to try: Move the GFCI to
another slot in the panel, and see what happens.
Just thought about this: Have you checked on whether the outbuilding's
subpanel is 'bonded'? The correct way to wire a subpanel is to run the
hot(s), the neutral, and and a separate insulated ground all the way to
the main panel, so that the only 'earth' point is at the main
panel/meter. But subpanels sometimes get wired with local grounds, and
it's also possible that the installer bonded the neutral bus and ground
bus in the subpanel instead of leaving the neutral & ground isolated.
--
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| Subject: | Re: Non-aero GFCI question |
GFCI breakers and outlets are very sensitive. And some are more sensitive
than others. And some are too sensitive. All it takes is a few milliamps
difference between the hot and neutral to trip. 50 milliamps through a
person's heart can stop it from beating. I suggest that you replace the GFCI
breaker with a standard breaker. Then replace every outlet with a GFCI
outlet with no other outlets downstream of each GFCI outlet. Now if a GFCI
outlet trips, either the load is defective or else the GFCI outlet is defective.
If
a GFCI outlet trips off, then power is only lost to whatever is plugged into that
one outlet. The other GFCI outs should not be affected.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=511684#511684
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Non-aero GFCI question |
A typical GCFI outlet has Line and Load terminals. Only if additional
outlets are connected to the Load terminals will they be protected. When
pressing the TEST button, all devices connected downstream should lose
power.
But you're talking about a GCFI breaker here, right? Then all outlets
connected to that breaker will be protected.
Either you have a bad GCFI breaker, moisture or something else going on
with the wiring or outlets. I think the suggestion of disconnecting
wiring to the GCFI breaker is a good idea. If it pops you know it's bad.
Note that there are now also arc-detection breakers (required in
bedrooms, I believe). They do not play well with dimmers.
Finn
On 10/31/2023 7:59 PM, Charlie England wrote:
> On 10/31/2023 4:55 PM, Dave Saylor wrote:
>> Thank you Charlie. I have some things to check.
>>
>> "Does that mean, 'standard breaker and GFCI outlet, and the
>> GFCIoutlet
>> trips'? (If the standard breaker itself is tripping, then there are
>> bigger issues. ;-) )
>>
>>
>> Yep, that's what I meant. When the standard breaker was installed,
>> it never tripped. But the GFCI outlet downstream of it would trip.
>> Now there are no GFCI outlets in the branch, but the associated GFCI
>> breaker is tripping.
>>
>> I haven't tried the breaker all by itself. I'll give that a shot.
>>
>> There's another GFCI outlet in the building, and it has tripped
>> before. I attributed that to an extension cord laying out in the
>> rain. Besides that one time, the other GFCI seems reliable. But
>> might be worth looking into.
>>
>> I understand that a single GFCI outlet on a branch will protect the
>> entire branch. Does that seem right? If that's the case, is the
>> single breaker providing GFCI protection to the entire subpanel?
>> Maybe I need to broaden my search for the culprit. So far I've only
>> been searching past the breaker.
>>
>> The outbuilding houses water tanks, pressure tank/pump/switches, and
>> a float switch...plenty of opportunityto get wet. But those items
>> never trip. Just the outdoor GFCI.
> My understanding is that a GFCI outlet will 'protect' outlets that are
> *downstream* of the GFCI outlet. Normally, it would be the 1st outlet
> in the chain, but if for instance a circuit had been run to an
> interior outlet, then to an outside outlet that got the GFCI
> installed, then only the outdoor outlet and whatever followed it going
> away from the panel would be protected.
>
> If yours still trips with all branch wiring disconnected, then this is
> a really long shot, but should be fairly simple to try: Move the GFCI
> to another slot in the panel, and see what happens.
>
> Just thought about this: Have you checked on whether the outbuilding's
> subpanel is 'bonded'? The correct way to wire a subpanel is to run the
> hot(s), the neutral, and and a separate insulated ground all the way
> to the main panel, so that the only 'earth' point is at the main
> panel/meter. But subpanels sometimes get wired with local grounds, and
> it's also possible that the installer bonded the neutral bus and
> ground bus in the subpanel instead of leaving the neutral & ground
> isolated.
>
>
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