Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:14 AM - Re: DB9 Cover (BobD)
2. 12:57 AM - Re: Plane Power alternator $$$$ (Sebastien)
3. 10:20 AM - DB9 Cover (GLEN MATEJCEK)
4. 10:23 AM - Re: Plane Power alternator $$$$ (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 11:23 AM - Re: Plane Power alternator $$$$ (Charlie England)
6. 11:33 AM - Re: DB9 Cover (Charlie England)
7. 12:43 PM - Re: DB9 Cover (Jared Yates)
8. 12:52 PM - Re: DB9 Cover (Sebastien)
9. 02:30 PM - Re: Plane Power alternator $$$$ (Jeff Luckey)
10. 02:40 PM - Re: DB9 Cover (Jeff Luckey)
11. 08:08 PM - Re: Plane Power alternator $$$$ (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Jeff, I'm not sure which part of the world you live in, but if the UK, I remember
from Dragons Den a few years ago, someone came up with something similar to
that you are looking for. It was called the chocbox, and made him quite a few
quid as I recall. If you Google that, name, you will probably find what you are
looking for.
Cheers
BobD
--------
Bob Dawson
Europa XS TG || 912 ULS || G-NHRJ || Dynon Skyview || PilotAware || SmartAss3
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=512619#512619
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Plane Power alternator $$$$ |
Hi Jesse,
I'd start with downloading the data for this flight from the dynon and
posting it here. Then we would know what happened leading up to the
incident.
On Tue, 28 Nov 2023, 21:33 Jesse Jenks, <jessejenks72@gmail.com> wrote:
> jessejenks72@gmail.com>
>
> Holy cow, my alternator failed (I think) today. I thought =9Cno big
deal,
> I=99ll just throw a new one in=9D but wow, the price has trip
led!
> I better make sure that is the problem before I spend $1000 on a new one,
> so I=99m looking for some opinions here. Here=99s what happen
ed: started seeing
> intermittent power off indications on the dynon like it was switching to
> internal battery, then it went black! (Which is strange because it does
> have a backup battery) Then the radios started to die. I could not see th
e
> volts and amps because that is displayed on the dynon (now dark) so I
> headed back to the airport. After a minute or so the dynon came back and
I
> checked the volts and amps. Volts were around 9.5 and amps were pegged
> high. My ammeter shunt is in the alternator feed line. I turned off the
> avionics and other loads, then thought to turn off the alternator. After
a
> while the volts started creeping back up and I was able to use the radio
> for landing. Volts came back up to 11.5.
> I suspect an internal short in the alternator because the battery
> recovered some after I turned off the alternator. I do have a 60 amp fuse
> in the alternator feed line and it does not appear to have blown. Maybe t
he
> short was not strong enough to blow the fuse?
> It is an internally regulated Plane Power alternator about 12 years old
> with about 600 hours on it.
> Any thoughts, opinions, or advice?
> Thanks!!!
> Jesse
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
> >I'm looking for a snap-on thin plastic shell that would clamp over a
> mated
> >pair of DB9 connectors ( 1 male plugged into a female).=C2- Not a backshe
> >ll but something that is easy to clip on and would protect the other
> wires
> >in the loom from the metal edges of the connectors.=C2- It does not have
> >to provide strain relief for the wires going into the connectors.
>
> That might be a great spot for fusing silicone tape. Not as sexy as a
special
purpose shell, but likely as effective and a better seal.
Just a thought-
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Plane Power alternator $$$$ |
At 11:29 PM 11/28/2023, you wrote:
>
>Holy cow, my alternator failed (I think) today. Started seeing
>intermittent power off indications on the dynon like it was
>switching to internal battery, then it went black! (Which is strange
>because it does have a backup battery)
At what bus voltage does the Dynon revert to backup
battery?
When was the last time the backup battery was
tested for minimum performance requirements?
Then the radios started to die. I could not see the volts and
amps because that is displayed on the dynon (now dark) so
I headed back to the airport.
When was the last time the ship's battery was
tested for minimum performance requirements?
The panel going dark unexpectedly during this
event suggests that it was incapable of supporting
ship's systems for some minimum duration.
I take it you do not have an active notification
of low voltage (flashing light right in front
of your position)?
After a minute or so the dynon came back and I checked the
volts and amps. Volts were around 9.5 and amps were pegged high.
This suggests that a previously absentee alternator
was awake and working to recharge an essentially
'dead' battery.
My ammeter shunt is in the alternator feed line. I turned off
the avionics and other loads, then thought to turn off the alternator.
Why turn it off? It would probably have started
to reduce output as the battery began to take
a charge . . . how many amps is "pegged high"?
After a while the volts started creeping back up and I was able
to use the radio for landing. Volts came back up to 11.5.
This suggests that the badly depleted battery was
recovering slightly under light load. A voltage of 11.5
on the battery suggests 95+ percent DEPLETED.
>I suspect an internal short in the alternator because the battery
>recovered some after I turned off the alternator.
Probably not. The battery was simply struggling
for a second wind while lightly loaded.
>I do have a 60 amp fuse in the alternator feed line and it does
>not appear to have blown. Maybe the short was not strong enough
>to blow the fuse?
Alternators are incapable of opening their own
b-lead protection except in case of shorted diode(s)
in the rectifier . . . it's always BATTERY energy
that opens this fuse. In this case, battery behavior
suggests near total depletion which would probably
render it incapable of opening the b-lead fuse even
if it were faulted.
>It is an internally regulated Plane Power alternator about 12 years
>old with about 600 hours on it.
>Any thoughts, opinions, or advice?
Take it off and disassemble for inspection of brushes.
I suspect they're worn to the point of intermittent
performance. New brushes may well fix the problem.
Suggest you put your battery on a charger/maintainer
and then do load and capacity checks to assess
minimum performance requirements. You might also
consider testing the backup battery . . . sounds
like it wasn't up to the task either.
Adding ACTIVE notification of low voltage to
your panel would have given you a heads-up
LONG BEFORE this situation degraded into a
tense moment.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Plane Power alternator $$$$ |
On Tue, Nov 28, 2023 at 11:33=AFPM Jesse Jenks <jessejenks72@gmail.co
m> wrote:
> jessejenks72@gmail.com>
>
> Holy cow, my alternator failed (I think) today. I thought =9Cno big
deal,
> I=99ll just throw a new one in=9D but wow, the price has trip
led!
> I better make sure that is the problem before I spend $1000 on a new one,
> so I=99m looking for some opinions here. Here=99s what happen
ed: started seeing
> intermittent power off indications on the dynon like it was switching to
> internal battery, then it went black! (Which is strange because it does
> have a backup battery) Then the radios started to die. I could not see th
e
> volts and amps because that is displayed on the dynon (now dark) so I
> headed back to the airport. After a minute or so the dynon came back and
I
> checked the volts and amps. Volts were around 9.5 and amps were pegged
> high. My ammeter shunt is in the alternator feed line. I turned off the
> avionics and other loads, then thought to turn off the alternator. After
a
> while the volts started creeping back up and I was able to use the radio
> for landing. Volts came back up to 11.5.
> I suspect an internal short in the alternator because the battery
> recovered some after I turned off the alternator. I do have a 60 amp fuse
> in the alternator feed line and it does not appear to have blown. Maybe t
he
> short was not strong enough to blow the fuse?
> It is an internally regulated Plane Power alternator about 12 years old
> with about 600 hours on it.
> Any thoughts, opinions, or advice?
> Thanks!!!
> Jesse
>
I can hear all the other PP users saying in unison, "Welcome to the club!"
;-) The VAF (Van's Air Force) forum has enough threads about PP problems to
fill a hard drive. Most will say congrats for getting 600 hours.
Here's a thread about alternator failures
<https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=138805>, with
comparison of PP, B&C, & 'generic'. Note that it is far from scientific;
all the numbers for PP will be higher since Van sells PP products with
their kits. But it might be somewhat informative that random 'generic'
alternators with random installation techniques look about as good as PP.
Here's a recent thread that describes possibilities for repairing your PP
alternator
<https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=221270&highlight=%
22plane+power%22>.
To repair, you need to determine whether the alternator itself is bad, or
the regulator inside it has failed. If you want to dig into it yourself,
you can get help here with troubleshooting.
There are threads on this list, on the VAF forum, and other places on how
to modify most Denso alternators to use external regulation, using either a
generic Ford style regulator with external overvoltage protection, or using
the B&C regulator with built-in OV protection, low voltage warning, etc. My
personal choice has been to use one of the common Denso internally
regulated alternators, with OV protection from the B&C OV module (hard to
find these days, but you can build one yourself) driving a high current
relay in the B-lead path. Bob is currently working on an updated OV module,
so that may become an option, as well.
Now, to the unasked question: Why didn't you get an instant notification
when the alternator died? You mentioned Dynon, but didn't say whether you
have their engine monitor. If you do, you should be able to program an
alert for voltage dropping below normal alternator charge voltage. If you
don't have the engine monitor, you need some form of low voltage
notification so you'll know when the alternator dies. If your shunt is in
the B-lead line, and the fault was in the alternator, the current reading
should have reversed when you had the failure. If you didn't notice a
reversed indication, it wouldn't be surprising; I'd have probably missed it
as well in 'the heat of battle'. But if it *didn't* reverse, the fault may
well be external to the alternator (somewhere in the a/c's wiring). Worth a
look.
If you look through the Z-figures in the AEC book, there won't be any fuses
in the B-lead circuit; only 'current limiters' or fusible links. It takes a
*lot* of grunt (catastrophic fault to ground) to blow 60 amps of circuit
protection, no matter what device is used.
Just some random thoughts; hope some will be useful.
Charlie
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
On Wed, Nov 29, 2023 at 12:05=AFAM Jeff Luckey <jluckey@pacbell.net>
wrote:
> I'm looking for a snap-on thin plastic shell that would clamp over a mate
d
> pair of DB9 connectors ( 1 male plugged into a female). Not a backshell
> but something that is easy to clip on and would protect the other wires i
n
> the loom from the metal edges of the connectors. It does not have to
> provide strain relief for the wires going into the connectors.
>
> I've seen the plastic back shells that snap over each connector - I want
> something like that, but that clips over the mated pair.
>
> Anyone ever seen something like this? Not even sure how to Google for
> this...
>
>
> -Jeff
>
Others have good suggestions, but my solution would be much more 'shade
tree'. I'd use the regular covers on each side (sounds like you're doing
that already), zip-tie the holes together, and wrap the flanges with a
couple of turns of silicone repair tape (or even regular electrical tape).
Charlie
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Or perhaps a wrap of self-fusing tape?
On Wed, Nov 29, 2023, 01:59 Stuart Hutchison <stuart@stuarthutchison.com.au
>
wrote:
> Seems like a good candidate for 3D printing Jeff.
>
> On 29 Nov 2023, at 5:02=AFpm, Jeff Luckey <jluckey@pacbell.net> wro
te:
>
> I'm looking for a snap-on thin plastic shell that would clamp over a mate
d
> pair of DB9 connectors ( 1 male plugged into a female). Not a backshell
> but something that is easy to clip on and would protect the other wires i
n
> the loom from the metal edges of the connectors. It does not have to
> provide strain relief for the wires going into the connectors.
>
> I've seen the plastic back shells that snap over each connector - I want
> something like that, but that clips over the mated pair.
>
> Anyone ever seen something like this? Not even sure how to Google for
> this...
>
>
> -Jeff
>
>
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
https://www.aircraftspruce.ca/catalog/appages/rescuetape.php?clickkey=916
8
On Wed, 29 Nov 2023, 12:47 Jared Yates, <email@jaredyates.com> wrote:
> Or perhaps a wrap of self-fusing tape?
>
> On Wed, Nov 29, 2023, 01:59 Stuart Hutchison <
> stuart@stuarthutchison.com.au> wrote:
>
>> Seems like a good candidate for 3D printing Jeff.
>>
>> On 29 Nov 2023, at 5:02=AFpm, Jeff Luckey <jluckey@pacbell.net> wr
ote:
>>
>> I'm looking for a snap-on thin plastic shell that would clamp over a
>> mated pair of DB9 connectors ( 1 male plugged into a female). Not a
>> backshell but something that is easy to clip on and would protect the ot
her
>> wires in the loom from the metal edges of the connectors. It does not h
ave
>> to provide strain relief for the wires going into the connectors.
>>
>> I've seen the plastic back shells that snap over each connector - I want
>> something like that, but that clips over the mated pair.
>>
>> Anyone ever seen something like this? Not even sure how to Google for
>> this...
>>
>>
>> -Jeff
>>
>>
>>
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Plane Power alternator $$$$ |
Jesse,
I'm interested in what happened before the incident. Trying to determine th
e chronology...
1. After engine start did you check volts and amps?=C2- If you did, I ass
ume they were normal?=C2- What were they?
2. How long were you flying before the problem happened?
3. Did the Dynon backup battery fail, or is it the case that you could have
been flying on the backup for a while?=C2-=C2-
4. Is there a conspicuous indication that the Dynon is running on backup po
wer?
-Jeff
On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 11:29:56 AM PST, Charlie England <ce
england7@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Nov 28, 2023 at 11:33=AFPM Jesse Jenks <jessejenks72@gmail.co
m> wrote:
m>
Holy cow, my alternator failed (I think) today. I thought =9Cno big d
eal, I=99ll just throw a new one in=9D but wow, the price has t
ripled!
I better make sure that is the problem before I spend $1000 on a new one, s
o I=99m looking for some opinions here. Here=99s what happened:
started seeing intermittent power off indications on the dynon like it was
switching to internal battery, then it went black! (Which is strange becau
se it does have a backup battery) Then the radios started to die. I could n
ot see the volts and amps because that is displayed on the dynon (now dark)
so I headed back to the airport. After a minute or so the dynon came back
and I checked the volts and amps. Volts were around 9.5 and amps were pegge
d high. My ammeter shunt is in the alternator feed line. I turned off the a
vionics and other loads, then thought to turn off the alternator. After a w
hile the volts started creeping back up and I was able to use the radio for
landing. Volts came back up to 11.5.
I suspect an internal short in the alternator because the battery recovered
some after I turned off the alternator. I do have a 60 amp fuse in the alt
ernator feed line and it does not appear to have blown. Maybe the short was
not strong enough to blow the fuse?
It is an internally regulated Plane Power alternator about 12 years old wit
h about 600 hours on it.
Any thoughts, opinions, or advice?
Thanks!!!
Jesse
I can hear all the other PP users saying in unison, "Welcome to the club!"
=C2- ;-)=C2-The VAF (Van's Air Force) forum has enough threads about PP
problems to fill a hard drive. Most will say congrats for getting 600 hour
s.
Here's a thread about alternator failures, with comparison of PP, B&C, & 'g
eneric'. Note that it is far from scientific; all the=C2- numbers for PP
will be higher since Van sells PP products with their kits. But it might be
somewhat informative that random 'generic' alternators with random install
ation techniques look about as good as PP.
Here's a recent thread that describes possibilities for repairing your PP a
lternator. To repair, you need to determine whether the alternator itself i
s bad, or the regulator inside it has failed. If you want to dig into it yo
urself, you can get help here with troubleshooting.
There are threads on this list, on the VAF forum, and other places on how t
o modify most Denso alternators to use external regulation, using either a
generic Ford style regulator with external overvoltage protection, or using
the B&C regulator with built-in OV=C2-protection, low voltage warning, e
tc. My personal choice has been to use one of the common Denso internally r
egulated alternators, with OV protection from the B&C OV module (hard to fi
nd these days, but you can build one yourself) driving a high current relay
in the B-lead path. Bob is currently working on an updated OV module, so t
hat may become an option, as well.
Now, to the unasked question: Why didn't you get an instant notification wh
en the alternator died? You mentioned Dynon, but didn't say whether you hav
e their engine monitor. If you do, you should be able to program an alert f
or voltage dropping below normal alternator charge voltage. If you don't ha
ve the engine monitor, you need some form of low voltage notification so yo
u'll know when the alternator dies. If your shunt is in the B-lead line, an
d the fault was in the alternator, the current reading should have reversed
when you had the failure. If you didn't notice a reversed indication, it w
ouldn't be surprising; I'd have probably missed it as well in 'the heat of
battle'. But if it *didn't* reverse, the fault may well be external to the
alternator (somewhere in the a/c's wiring). Worth a look.
If you look through the Z-figures in the AEC book, there won't be any fuses
in the B-lead circuit; only 'current limiters' or fusible links. It takes
a *lot* of grunt (catastrophic fault to ground) to blow 60 amps of circuit
protection, no matter what device is used.
Just some random thoughts; hope some will be useful.
Charlie
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
BobD - the ChocBlock is the right idea but is designed to a hold terminal
block.
Stuart - You suggested some 3D printing - I had the same thought as I was w
riting the original message...but I don't have a printer and I'd rather buy
COTS than have to roll my own. (The hardest part of that would be the 3D C
AD, since I don't do 3D CAD;)
All others - valid suggestions, some of which I had considered.=C2-
Thanks to all,
-Jeff
On Wednesday, November 29, 2023 at 12:58:13 PM PST, Sebastien <cluros@g
mail.com> wrote:
https://www.aircraftspruce.ca/catalog/appages/rescuetape.php?clickkey=91
68
On Wed, 29 Nov 2023, 12:47 Jared Yates, <email@jaredyates.com> wrote:
Or perhaps a wrap of self-fusing tape?
On Wed, Nov 29, 2023, 01:59 Stuart Hutchison <stuart@stuarthutchison.com.au
> wrote:
Seems like a good candidate for 3D printing Jeff.
On 29 Nov 2023, at 5:02=AFpm, Jeff Luckey <jluckey@pacbell.net> wrote
:
I'm looking for a snap-on thin plastic shell that would clamp over a mated
pair of DB9 connectors ( 1 male plugged into a female).=C2- Not a backshe
ll but something that is easy to clip on and would protect the other wires
in the loom from the metal edges of the connectors.=C2- It does not have
to provide strain relief for the wires going into the connectors.
I've seen the plastic back shells that snap over each connector - I want so
mething like that, but that clips over the mated pair.
Anyone ever seen something like this?=C2- Not even sure how to Google for
this...
-Jeff
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Plane Power alternator $$$$ |
>
>There are threads on this list, on the VAF forum, and other places on how to
>modify most Denso alternators to use external regulation,
It's not a difficult task . . .
>My personal choice has been to use one of the common Denso internally
>regulated alternators, with OV protection from the B&C OV module
>(hard to find these days, but you can build one yourself) . . .
>driving a high current relay in the B-lead path. Bob is currently working
>on an updated OV module, so that may become an option, as well.
Prototype parts are in hand. I'm going to try
something a little different for soldering the
itty-bitty parts. The tools are at the post office.
>If you don't have the engine monitor, you need some form of low voltage
>notification so you'll know when the alternator dies.
We used to offer that too. Maybe that product
should be resurrected as well. All of the parts
necessary to implement a flashing low-volts
driver are already on the board for the
crowbar ovm. Wouldn't take much to shuffle
the parts around.
>If your shunt is in the B-lead line, and the fault was in the
>alternator, the current reading should have reversed when you
>had the failure.
Alternator b-lead readings never 'go minus'
except in case failure of TWO diodes . . . exceedingly
rare. It was the BATTERY AMMETER that
normally manifests minus-zero-plus readings.
>If you look through the Z-figures in the AEC book, there won't
>be any fuses in the B-lead circuit; only 'current limiters'
>or fusible links. It takes a *lot* of grunt (catastrophic fault
>to ground) to blow 60 amps of circuit protection, no matter
>what device is used.
Correct. Alternators are not capable of opening
their own b-lead protection. Energy that opens
the b-lead comes from the BATTERY.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o========
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
================================
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|