Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:16 AM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 12/18/23 (Andrew Meyer)
2. 03:15 PM - Re: Re: Plane Power alternator $$$$ (skywagon185guy)
3. 04:10 PM - Re: Plane Power alternator $$$$ (Coastflyer)
4. 04:32 PM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 12/18/23 (Eric Page)
5. 05:10 PM - Transponder dummy load (Christopher Cee Stone)
6. 05:53 PM - Re: Transponder dummy load ()
7. 06:01 PM - Re: Transponder dummy load (Christopher Cee Stone)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 12/18/23 |
Stencils!
Bob, trying to accurately coral the mosquito poop on more than one board
will drive you bat$#!+ crazy. I've bought stencils for doing boards and I
use an old hotel key - one or two swipes and those mosquito turds cover up
- at the right thickness - every pad. Drop everything in place, then watch
them all wiggle into alignment as the solder flows. I go as small as 0402,
but try to stick to 0603 or bigger.
I cheat and use a hot plate to reflow, but I've thought about the reflow
oven. I'm only doing a couple to a few boards a year.
Andy
On Tue, Dec 19, 2023, 02:39 AeroElectric-List Digest Server <
aeroelectric-list@matronics.com> wrote:
> *
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> ----------------------------------------------------------
> AeroElectric-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Mon 12/18/23: 8
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Today's Message Index:
> ----------------------
>
> 1. 06:06 AM - OVM-14 MkIII development (update) (Robert L. Nuckolls,
> III)
> 2. 07:22 AM - Re: OVM-14 MkIII development (update) (Bob Verwey)
> 3. 07:28 AM - Re: OVM-14 MkIII development (update) (Christopher Cee
> Stone)
> 4. 08:38 AM - Re: OVM-14 MkIII development (update) (Charlie England)
> 5. 10:04 AM - Re: OVM-14 MkIII development (update) (Robert L.
> Nuckolls, III)
> 6. 11:21 AM - Re: OVM-14 MkIII development (update) (Robert L.
> Nuckolls, III)
> 7. 03:07 PM - Re: OVM-14 MkIII development (update) (Eric Page)
> 8. 07:33 PM - Re: Re: OVM-14 MkIII development (update) (Robert L.
> Nuckolls, III)
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 1
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 06:06:55 AM PST US
> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: OVM-14 MkIII development (update)
>
> All the proto boards and parts are in.
>
> This is a busy time for festivities and frivolities . . .
> having trouble getting back to the bench.
>
> I'm going to try something 'new' for my shop.
> The big guns in electronic assembly literally
> silk screen solder paste onto component pads
> before using a pick-n-place machine to position
> parts. The boards are then run through a very
> sophisticated oven that preheats and then
> flows the solder.
>
> I remember my first experiences with solid state
> assembly protocols. 1955 or thereabouts I acquired
> my first transistor. A Raytheon CK722. Seems like
> they cost about $6 then. All the instructions
> for assembling the device into the circuit called
> for grabbing the lead with a pair of needle nose
> pliers to keep the soldering heat from migrating
> up and into the device placing it at risk for
> failure.
>
> Nowadays, we can throw whole assemblies into
> environments that solder thousands
> of joints all at once in mere minutes . . .
>
> I've purchased a hand operated syringe designed
> to deposit mosquito poop sized drops of solder
> paste onto the pads. I also have a miniature
> heat-gun with which I can stick every thing down
> in one operation.
>
> I've scheduled some time with my contractor to
> modify a workbench in the 'mess making' shop.
> We're adding some shelving to support test equipment
> over the alternator drive I built up several
> years ago for another project. I'm planning to
> instrument a mock-up of a complete electrical
> system so that we can speak to performance
> of system components in terms of measured values.
>
> Watch this space.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ////
> (o o)
> ===========o00o=(_)=o00o=======
> < Go ahead, make my day . . . >
> < show me where I'm wrong. >
> ===============================
>
> In the interest of creative evolution
> of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
> on physics and good practice.
>
> ________________________________ Message 2
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:22:30 AM PST US
> From: Bob Verwey <bob.verwey@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: OVM-14 MkIII development (update)
>
> Bob my optical focus is more and more a challenge when dealing with more
> and more minutuarized components!
>
> On Mon, 18 Dec 2023, 16:09 Robert L. Nuckolls, III, <
> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
> > All the proto boards and parts are in.
> >
> > This is a busy time for festivities and frivolities . . .
> > having trouble getting back to the bench.
> >
> > I'm going to try something 'new' for my shop.
> > The big guns in electronic assembly literally
> > silk screen solder paste onto component pads
> > before using a pick-n-place machine to position
> > parts. The boards are then run through a very
> > sophisticated oven that preheats and then
> > flows the solder.
> >
> > I remember my first experiences with solid state
> > assembly protocols. 1955 or thereabouts I acquired
> > my first transistor. A Raytheon CK722. Seems like
> > they cost about $6 then. All the instructions
> > for assembling the device into the circuit called
> > for grabbing the lead with a pair of needle nose
> > pliers to keep the soldering heat from migrating
> > up and into the device placing it at risk for
> > failure.
> >
> > Nowadays, we can throw whole assemblies into
> > environments that solder thousands
> > of joints all at once in mere minutes . . .
> >
> > I've purchased a hand operated syringe designed
> > to deposit mosquito poop sized drops of solder
> > paste onto the pads. I also have a miniature
> > heat-gun with which I can stick every thing down
> > in one operation.
> >
> > I've scheduled some time with my contractor to
> > modify a workbench in the 'mess making' shop.
> > We're adding some shelving to support test equipment
> > over the alternator drive I built up several
> > years ago for another project. I'm planning to
> > instrument a mock-up of a complete electrical
> > system so that we can speak to performance
> > of system components in terms of measured values.
> >
> > Watch this space.
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
> > ////
> > (o o)
> > ===========o00o=(_)=o00o=======
> > < Go ahead, make my day . . . >
> > < show me where I'm wrong. >
> > ===============================
> >
> > In the interest of creative evolution
> > of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
> > on physics and good practice.
> >
>
> ________________________________ Message 3
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:28:24 AM PST US
> From: Christopher Cee Stone <rv8iator@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: OVM-14 MkIII development (update)
>
> Bob et al...
>
> This is a BGA component (Dims in mm) that is soldered to a slightly larger
> motherboard. All our fabs are pick and place. Most boards 6 layers with
> .010 in traces. We get some components that are manufactured in
> millimeters and our design software (Altium) likes inch grids... The
> conversion is four significant digits so it's only a matter of making sure
> you remember what units you are working in...
> I only bring this up as boards and fab have really become quite
> inexpensive. I do 5 piece and 10 piece board proto lots.
> Fun stuff!
>
> .Chris
> Another RV
>
> [image: image.png]
>
> On Mon, Dec 18, 2023 at 6:09=AFAM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
> > All the proto boards and parts are in.
> >
> > This is a busy time for festivities and frivolities . . .
> > having trouble getting back to the bench.
> >
> > I'm going to try something 'new' for my shop.
> > The big guns in electronic assembly literally
> > silk screen solder paste onto component pads
> > before using a pick-n-place machine to position
> > parts. The boards are then run through a very
> > sophisticated oven that preheats and then
> > flows the solder.
> >
> > I remember my first experiences with solid state
> > assembly protocols. 1955 or thereabouts I acquired
> > my first transistor. A Raytheon CK722. Seems like
> > they cost about $6 then. All the instructions
> > for assembling the device into the circuit called
> > for grabbing the lead with a pair of needle nose
> > pliers to keep the soldering heat from migrating
> > up and into the device placing it at risk for
> > failure.
> >
> > Nowadays, we can throw whole assemblies into
> > environments that solder thousands
> > of joints all at once in mere minutes . . .
> >
> > I've purchased a hand operated syringe designed
> > to deposit mosquito poop sized drops of solder
> > paste onto the pads. I also have a miniature
> > heat-gun with which I can stick every thing down
> > in one operation.
> >
> > I've scheduled some time with my contractor to
> > modify a workbench in the 'mess making' shop.
> > We're adding some shelving to support test equipment
> > over the alternator drive I built up several
> > years ago for another project. I'm planning to
> > instrument a mock-up of a complete electrical
> > system so that we can speak to performance
> > of system components in terms of measured values.
> >
> > Watch this space.
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
> > ////
> > (o o)
> > ===========o00o=(_)=o00o=====
> =
> > < Go ahead, make my day . . . >
> > < show me where I'm wrong. >
> > ======================
> ========
> >
> > In the interest of creative evolution
> > of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
> > on physics and good practice.
> >
>
> ________________________________ Message 4
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 08:38:02 AM PST US
> From: Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: OVM-14 MkIII development (update)
>
> On Mon, Dec 18, 2023 at 8:09=AFAM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
> > All the proto boards and parts are in.
> >
> > This is a busy time for festivities and frivolities . . .
> > having trouble getting back to the bench.
> >
> > I'm going to try something 'new' for my shop.
> > The big guns in electronic assembly literally
> > silk screen solder paste onto component pads
> > before using a pick-n-place machine to position
> > parts. The boards are then run through a very
> > sophisticated oven that preheats and then
> > flows the solder.
> > snip
> >
> > Nowadays, we can throw whole assemblies into
> > environments that solder thousands
> > of joints all at once in mere minutes . . .
> >
> > I've purchased a hand operated syringe designed
> > to deposit mosquito poop sized drops of solder
> > paste onto the pads. I also have a miniature
> > heat-gun with which I can stick every thing down
> > in one operation.
> >
> > snip
> >
>
>
> > of system components in terms of measured values.
> >
> > Watch this space.
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
> >
> > A friend of mine designed and has been making the control head/monitors
> for E-Mag ignition systems for many years, using surface mount components.
> He
> copied what hobbyists were doing; they used a particular brand of 'toaster
> oven' that has accurate temperature control. So if you have an E-Mag
> control head, it came from an 'easy bake oven'. ;-)
>
> Charlie
>
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_c
> ampaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
> >
> Virus-free.www.avast.com
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_c
> ampaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
> >
> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
> ________________________________ Message 5
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 10:04:57 AM PST US
> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: OVM-14 MkIII development (update)
>
> At 09:21 AM 12/18/2023, you wrote:
> >Bob my optical focus is more and more a challenge when dealing with
> >more and more minutuarized components!
>
> Yeah . . . While at Beech, I purchased a binocular
> microscope with a camera port. Invaluable tool for
> chasing down root cause for sticking relays, broken
> shafts, poor craftsmanship, etc. Now it's handy
> for working etched circuit boards! I don't use
> anything smaller than 1206 components but the
> next gen OVM got laid out really tight so the
> board will STILL fit under 1/2" heat shrink.
>
> I'm thinking of seeing if some of my contractor's
> grand kids would be interested in learning to
> assemble things like this. Thought it would
> be wise to pursue an upgrade to our shade-tree
> processes. The poop-n-blast technique seems
> like a logical 'upgrade'.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ////
> (o o)
> ===========o00o=(_)=o00o=======
> < Go ahead, make my day . . . >
> < show me where I'm wrong. >
> ===============================
>
> In the interest of creative evolution
> of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
> on physics and good practice.
>
> ________________________________ Message 6
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 11:21:41 AM PST US
> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: OVM-14 MkIII development (update)
>
>
> >A friend of mine=C2 designed and has been making the control
> >head/monitors for E-Mag ignition systems for many years, using
> >surface mount components. He copied what hobbyists were doing;
> >they used a particular brand of 'toaster oven' that has
> >accurate temperature control. So if you have an E-Mag
> >control head, it came from an 'easy bake oven'. ;-)
>
> Yeah, I've been aware of a constellation of
> reflow tools for DIY assembly for a number
> of years. About 10 years ago, I bought an
> early version of this thing.
>
> Made it work okay . . . but it took up a lot
> of room on the bench and was a tool I used
> for perhaps an 2 hours per month. It was
> just not very practical for my products
> with tiny boards. Still had some thru-hole
> products that were not oven-friendly.
>
> My little hot-air rework station seemed
> to be a better fit for my mix of repair/
> manufacturing tasks. Didn't take up much
> room. Virtually zero 'set up' . . . one
> could visually adjust technique on the
> fly. Was a whole lot cheaper too!
>
> I'm reminded of the exciting day that
> we purchased a wave soldering machine
> at Electro-Mech. We kept it for less
> than a year. There was a lot of 'back-office'
> work to store up enough boards to justify
> firing the thing up for a run . . . that
> might take less than an hour to solder a
> months worth of production.
>
> The thing proved to be a bottle-neck in
> work flow for an operation that produced
> a relatively small quantities of dozens of
> products that were needed at the customer
> in a smooth JIT flow.
>
> Our assembly line of skilled craftspersons
> proved more practical for managing
> work-flow.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ////
> (o o)
> ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======
>
> < Go ahead, make my day . . . >
> < show me where I'm wrong. >
> =======================
> =======
>
> In the interest of creative evolution
> of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
> on physics and good practice.
>
> ________________________________ Message 7
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 03:07:56 PM PST US
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: OVM-14 MkIII development (update)
> From: "Eric Page" <edpav8r@yahoo.com>
>
>
> Those Chinese T-962 reflow ovens are well known in the hobbyist community
> for having hot and cold spots, sometimes poor internal wiring, and for not
> following IPC profiles (https://www.ipc.org/TOC/IPC-7801.pdf) very well.
> There's an open-source project out there for a replacement controller that
> makes them work better.
>
> I use an old toaster oven with a failed thermostat that makes it run full
> blast
> regardless of setting (I ate out the day that happened!). I picked up a
> cheap
> industrial ramp/soak PID controller to run it. The only modification
> necessary
> was to cover the inside of the window in its door with aluminum foil to
> minimize
> radiated heat loss. It now works like a charm and cost only a few dollars.
>
> If you want to build a toaster oven reflow setup, look for an oven with
> quartz
> heating elements; they're reputed to allow faster temperature ramps,
> making it
> easier to follow the right profile.
>
> -Eric
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=512805#512805
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 8
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:33:02 PM PST US
> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: OVM-14 MkIII development (update)
>
> At 05:07 PM 12/18/2023, you wrote:
> >
> >Those Chinese T-962 reflow ovens are well known in the hobbyist
> >community for having hot and cold spots, sometimes poor internal
> >wiring, and for not following IPC profiles
> >(https://www.ipc.org/TOC/IPC-7801.pdf) very well. There's an
> >open-source project out there for a replacement controller that
> >makes them work better.
> >
> >I use an old toaster oven with a failed thermostat that makes it run
> >full blast regardless of setting (I ate out the day that
> >happened!). I picked up a cheap industrial ramp/soak PID controller
> >to run it. The only modification necessary was to cover the inside
> >of the window in its door with aluminum foil to minimize radiated
> >heat loss. It now works like a charm and cost only a few dollars.
> >
> >If you want to build a toaster oven reflow setup, look for an oven
> >with quartz heating elements; they're reputed to allow faster
> >temperature ramps, making it easier to follow the right profile.
> >
>
> Good info sir. Thank you!
>
> I think the T-962 has evolved to mitigate some
> of its shortcomings. The one I bought needed
> a number of mods right out of the box . . but
> it ultimately seemed adequate . . . jut more
> than I needed. Kinda like doing in ants
> with a sledgehammer!
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ////
> (o o)
> ===========o00o=(_)=o00o=======
> < Go ahead, make my day . . . >
> < show me where I'm wrong. >
> ===============================
>
> In the interest of creative evolution
> of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
> on physics and good practice.
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Plane Power alternator $$$$ |
Aircraft alternators....
Suggestion:
If you are stuck with a questionable alternator and need rapid test or
service. Take it to a reputable auto electric repair shop, however, never
mention that it is from an aircraft. If asked, say it's from your boat,
tractor, etc.
All the shops that I know will not touch an aircraft unit due to rules and
liability regulations, etc.
On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 8:52=AFAM Coastflyer <jessejenks72@gmail.com>
wrote:
> jessejenks72@gmail.com>
>
> Update: I finally had time to think about this again. I removed the
> alternator. It makes some scraping noises when rotated. I took it to a
> local guy who is reportedly very knowledgeable. He tested it and said the
> rear bushing/bearing is worn and he can=99t rebuild it, so I ordere
d a new
> one.
> Thank you everyone for the advice here.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=512793#512793
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Plane Power alternator $$$$ |
My alternator failed just in time!!!
I thought $1,000 was crazy but they just jacked the price up to $1,500!
WTF?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=512812#512812
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| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 8 Msgs - 12/18/23 |
andymeyer wrote:
> Stencils!
Amen. For one-off and prototype projects, OSH Stencils (https://www.oshstencils.com/#) is hard to beat. Their claim to fame is really cheap stencils made from polyamide film. They also make stainless steel stencils now, so they're a good option for higher-run projects too.
> I cheat and use a hot plate to reflow...
A good and basically free alternative to a hot plate is to put some fine sand into
an old frying pan and put it on the stove. Put the pasted and populated board
on top of the sand and turn on the heat. It'll heat the board very evenly.
-Eric
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=512813#512813
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| Subject: | Transponder dummy load |
What is the appropriate type load to apply as a dummy in place of an
antenna to test operation of a transponder?
I am about ready to close up my RV forward fuselage which restricts access
to the avionics bay but want to validate the operation of all components
and systems. The transponder communicates to the Echo UAT via serial
connection and sends the set xponter code to the UAT. Thus I need to
verify proper operation. The xponder antenna is not yet mounted on the
airframe as the fuselage sits on it's belly until completion of the canopy.
...Chris
Another RV
Message 6
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| Subject: | Transponder dummy load |
I=99m used to transmitters wanting to see 50 ohms on the antenna
line, so a 50 ohm dummy load would look like an antenna to it.
That said, the documentation should tell you =93 or call the
manufacturer
-----------------------------------
All the best,
Al Fuller
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
<owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com> On Behalf Of Christopher
Cee Stone
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2023 5:10 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Transponder dummy load
What is the appropriate type load to apply as a dummy in place of an
antenna to test operation of a transponder?
I am about ready to close up my RV forward fuselage which restricts
access to the avionics bay but want to validate the operation of all
components and systems. The transponder communicates to the Echo UAT
via serial connection and sends the set xponter code to the UAT. Thus I
need to verify proper operation. The xponder antenna is not yet mounted
on the airframe as the fuselage sits on it's belly until completion of
the canopy.
...Chris
Another RV
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Transponder dummy load |
The load has to dissipate the power which is quite high I believe. An
inductive load I don't think is advisable.
On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 5:55=AFPM <alfuller194@gmail.com> wrote:
> I=99m used to transmitters wanting to see 50 ohms on the antenna li
ne, so a
> 50 ohm dummy load would look like an antenna to it.
>
>
> That said, the documentation should tell you =93 or call the manufa
cturer
>
>
> -----------------------------------
>
> All the best,
>
>
> Al Fuller
>
>
> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com <
> owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com> *On Behalf Of *Christopher
> Cee Stone
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 19, 2023 5:10 PM
> *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* AeroElectric-List: Transponder dummy load
>
>
> What is the appropriate type load to apply as a dummy in place of an
> antenna to test operation of a transponder?
>
>
> I am about ready to close up my RV forward fuselage which restricts acces
s
> to the avionics bay but want to validate the operation of all components
> and systems. The transponder communicates to the Echo UAT via serial
> connection and sends the set xponter code to the UAT. Thus I need to
> verify proper operation. The xponder antenna is not yet mounted on the
> airframe as the fuselage sits on it's belly until completion of the canop
y.
>
>
> ...Chris
>
> Another RV
>
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