Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:27 AM - Re: Beginnings of my Tailwind Electrical System (Gerry Van Dyk)
2. 10:05 AM - Re: Re: Plane Power alternator $$$$ (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 10:05 AM - Re: Re: Fusible links (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 10:38 AM - Re: Re: Fusible links (John Bright)
5. 10:42 AM - Re: Re: Fusible links (Christopher Cee Stone)
6. 11:52 AM - Re: Re: Fusible links (Charlie England)
7. 01:20 PM - Fusible link test results (Christopher Cee Stone)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Beginnings of my Tailwind Electrical System |
Thanks Charlie=2E
Working on the full distribution drawing now=2E
Gerry
On 12/26/23 08=3A18 PM=2C Charlie England =3Cceengland7=40gmail=2Ecom=3E
wrote=3A
=3E
=3E
=3E
=3E =27Current thought=27=2E I like it=2E =3B-)
=3E
=3E The master contactor provides circuit protection for the =27fat=27 w
ires (manual trip mode)=2E
=3E
=3E
=3E
=3E Charlie
=3E
=3E
=3E
=3E
=3E (https=3A//www=2Eavast=2Ecom/sig-email=3Futm=5Fmedium=email=26utm=5F
source=link=26utm=5Fcampaign=sig-email=26utm=5Fcontent=webmail=22
iwc-bad-attr==22=22 target==221=22=3EVirus-free=2Ewww=2Eavast=2Ecom(
https=3A//www=2Eavast=2Ecom/sig-email=3Futm=5Fmedium=email=26utm=5Fsou
rce=link=26utm=5Fcampaign=sig-email=26utm=5Fcontent=webmail )
=3E
=3E (=23DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2 )
=3E
=3E
=3E
=3E On Tue=2C Dec 26=2C 2023 at 4=3A08=AFPM Gerry van Dyk =3Cgerry
=2Evandyk=40eastlink=2Eca(javascript=3Amain=2Ecompose( )=3E wrote=3A
=3E
=3E =3E
=3E =3E
=3E =3E Hello all
=3E =3E
=3E =3E I=27m deep in thought working on the power distribution for my T
ailwind Project=2E I=27m working towards a Z13/8 implementation=2C the Z
101 extras don=27t hold much appeal or utility for me=2E I hope some of
you learned gents could give my proposed system a quick look=2E It=27s p
retty basic so far=2E
=3E =3E
=3E =3E I=27m not ready to offer my basic bus power distribution drawing
or load analysis just yet=2E But I=27d like to ask a question or two as
I=27m wrapping my head around all the issues=2E
=3E =3E
=3E =3E I note on all the Z drawings the wire from the battery contactor
to the main bus is not fused=2E Is this similar to the starter cables=2C
in that it=27s a fat wire that is unlikely to be compromised=3F
=3E =3E
=3E =3E On the Z13/8 drawing I see a double pole single throw switch is
used to bring up the main alternator (Plane Power AS 12-E160 in my case)
and the battery contactor / main bus=2E I=27m considering using another
DPST switch to bring up the SD-8 and the alt E-bus feed=2E Is there any
condition where I would want one or the other of those to be switched o
ff=3F
=3E =3E
=3E =3E My current thought is to run the ignition start power for the pa
ir of P-Mags from the endurance bus=2E To start the engine I=27d turn on
the endurance bus=2C the low voltage warning should come up as the batt
ery will be at rest=2E After starting the engine=2C the EFIS ammeter sho
uld show the SD-8 supplying power=2E Bringing up the main bus I=27d then
switch off the alt E-bus feed / SD-8 to run on the main alternator=2E T
hat should satisfy preflight testing of the backup systems would it not=3F
=3E =3E
=3E =3E I=27d appreciate any insights that I=27m sure I=27m missing so f
ar=2E I=27ve attached a basic sketch of my proposed bus power distrubuti
on drawing=2C and load analysis=2E If any of you have thoughts or questi
ons please offer them=2E With any changes we find we need=2C I=27ll then
get stuck in with a more complete power distrubution drawing=2E
=3E =3E
=3E =3E Thanks for any help you all can provide=2E
=3E =3E
=3E =3E Gerry van Dyk
=3E =3E Tailwind W10 C-GVDZ
=3E =3E
=3E =3E
=3E
=3E
=3E
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Plane Power alternator $$$$ |
At 09:59 AM 12/24/2023, you wrote:
<jessejenks72@gmail.com>
>
>Thanks Bob,
>Well, I did note several .1 volt fluctuations as displayed on the Dynon
the significance of this observation is not
a 'given'. Digital displays may exhibit
some 'jumpiness' in the least significant
digits in spite of a rock solid stimulus.
This characteristic is the result of response
times, a/d converter performance and environment
for which the instrument is intended.
Laboratory grade instruments are not expected
to be fast while stability is valued. Field
instruments tend to be faster . . . but
more jitter.
A 0.1V fluctuation COULD be a driver for
the current fluctuations you observed . . .
depends on a number of system variables
most important of which is battery internal
resistance.
But if none of the illumination in the
cabin fluctuates in sympathy with the
current readings, I tend to think that
the readings are an artifact of measurement
technology.
I've got a constellation of tools suited
for ferreting out root cause of your
concerns. Yeah, the 'numbers' are intellectually
irritating but you've not described any
indication that something needs fixing.
I've oft suggested that ammeters are a
tiny step above useless in the operation
of your airplane. All loads are
known and critical components your
management of energy in the design
phase.
After that, airborne operation of the
electrical system should require no
analysis/diagnosis/decisions based on any
condition other than LO VOLTS. From
there, it's implementation of a proven
change of configuration . . . Plan-A,
Plan-B, perhaps a Plan-C.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=======
=
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
========================
========
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Fusible links |
At 12:05 PM 12/23/2023, you wrote:
>...appreciate your discussion and input!=C2 =C2
>
>This discussion is the result of the addition of
>two E-mags to the current RV project and
>reviewing the Emag installation instruction.
>They call for a circuit breaker in series with
>the power feeder for the E-mag(s).=C2 I am using
>Z-13/8 as a reference guide for this build.=C2 I
>am considering a fusible link instead of a
>circuit breaker as I am running out of panel
>space.=C2 Thus my concern for both reliability and safety.
Aha! That's a whole different problem. If I'm reading
ElectroAir literature correctly, that input of bus
voltage to the EMag is a CONTROL signal for the
purpose of disabling the mag during engine run-up
and/or engine shut down. Input current to that
port is TINY . . . about 0.04 Amps. That feeder
is an excellent candidate "source impedance
fault limiting".
Limiting a fault current to feeder friendly
levels: just splice a 22 ohm, 1-watt resistor
into the same spot you might use a fusible-link.
Cover with heat shrink.
A short on that feeder would be limited to
600 mA or less. Voltage drop would be 0.9 volts
or less . . . no effect on functionality.
It's been a common technique in my toolbox
in a constellation of designs for decades.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=======
=
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
========================
========
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Fusible links |
I think we're talking about not a control signal but power for the electron
ic ignition. This is for engine start and in case of failure of the alterna
tor internal to the emagair unit.
The way I read the emagair install manuals:
Four cylinder: Manual-114-L_C4-V33.pdf
Six cylinder: Manual-P200-6XLycoming-V41-1.pdf
Bus power ' terminal #5 for four cylinder, pin A for six cylinder, 12, 24
, or 48-volt systems
a) Minimum - 10 volts
b) Maximum - 58 volts
c) Current draw from bus:
i) less than 0.5 amp (normal operating conditions)
ii) less than 1.0 amp (maximum draw with no-op internal alternator)
________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com <owner-aeroelectric-list
-server@matronics.com> on behalf of Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@a
eroelectric.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2023 14:19
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Fusible links
At 12:05 PM 12/23/2023, you wrote:
...appreciate your discussion and input!=C2 =C2
This discussion is the result of the addition of two E-mags to the current
RV project and reviewing the Emag installation instruction. They call for a
circuit breaker in series with the power feeder for the E-mag(s).=C2 I am
using Z-13/8 as a reference guide for this build.=C2 I am considering a f
usible link instead of a circuit breaker as I am running out of panel space
.=C2 Thus my concern for both reliability and safety.
Aha! That's a whole different problem. If I'm reading
ElectroAir literature correctly, that input of bus
voltage to the EMag is a CONTROL signal for the
purpose of disabling the mag during engine run-up
and/or engine shut down. Input current to that
port is TINY . . . about 0.04 Amps. That feeder
is an excellent candidate "source impedance
fault limiting".
Limiting a fault current to feeder friendly
levels: just splice a 22 ohm, 1-watt resistor
into the same spot you might use a fusible-link.
Cover with heat shrink.
A short on that feeder would be limited to
600 mA or less. Voltage drop would be 0.9 volts
or less . . . no effect on functionality.
It's been a common technique in my toolbox
in a constellation of designs for decades.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=======
=
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
========================
========
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Fusible links |
Bob, et al...
Aha! That's a whole different problem. If I'm reading
ElectroAir literature correctly, that input of bus
(SNIP)
A short on that feeder would be limited to
600 mA or less. Voltage drop would be 0.9 volts
or less . . . no effect on functionality.
It's been a common technique in my toolbox
in a constellation of designs for decades.
I too have been going through the Emagair document.
I have very limited panel space left for ignition management as the ACS key
switch is already installed, Per Emagair, there is a 5A CB for each EI.
I am contemplating powering from the main bus (through a 22 ohm resistor).
For simplicity, a common feeder for both EI's then to a SPDT switch
(Disable power to both EI's) then two NC push button switches for
independent preflight check. No 5A CB's.
As I had assigned one fuse slot to the original plan of one EI/one mag, I
will use it with a 10A fuse. Running the EI's from the main buss assures
they are disabled with the Master Switch.
What am I missing?
I did some fusible link testing that I will publish soon, that was to be
the circuit protection for the EI's. I like the 22 ohm solution better.
...chris
On Wed, Dec 27, 2023 at 10:07=AFAM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 12:05 PM 12/23/2023, you wrote:
>
> ...appreciate your discussion and input!=C3=82 =C3=82
>
> This discussion is the result of the addition of two E-mags to the curren
t
> RV project and reviewing the Emag installation instruction. They call for
a
> circuit breaker in series with the power feeder for the E-mag(s).=C3=82
I am
> using Z-13/8 as a reference guide for this build.=C3=82 I am considering
a
> fusible link instead of a circuit breaker as I am running out of panel
> space.=C3=82 Thus my concern for both reliability and safety.
>
>
> Aha! That's a whole different problem. If I'm reading
> ElectroAir literature correctly, that input of bus
> voltage to the EMag is a CONTROL signal for the
> purpose of disabling the mag during engine run-up
> and/or engine shut down. Input current to that
> port is TINY . . . about 0.04 Amps. That feeder
> is an excellent candidate "source impedance
> fault limiting".
>
> Limiting a fault current to feeder friendly
> levels: just splice a 22 ohm, 1-watt resistor
> into the same spot you might use a fusible-link.
> Cover with heat shrink.
>
> A short on that feeder would be limited to
> 600 mA or less. Voltage drop would be 0.9 volts
> or less . . . no effect on functionality.
>
> It's been a common technique in my toolbox
> in a constellation of designs for decades.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ////
> (o o)
> ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======
==
> < Go ahead, make my day . . . >
> < show me where I'm wrong. >
> =======================
=========
>
> In the interest of creative evolution
> of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
> on physics and good practice.
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Fusible links |
On Wed, Dec 27, 2023 at 12:44=AFPM Christopher Cee Stone <rv8iator@gm
ail.com>
wrote:
> Bob, et al...
>
> Aha! That's a whole different problem. If I'm reading
> ElectroAir literature correctly, that input of bus
> (SNIP)
>
> A short on that feeder would be limited to
> 600 mA or less. Voltage drop would be 0.9 volts
> or less . . . no effect on functionality.
>
> It's been a common technique in my toolbox
> in a constellation of designs for decades.
>
>
> I too have been going through the Emagair document.
> I have very limited panel space left for ignition management as the ACS
> key switch is already installed, Per Emagair, there is a 5A CB for each E
I.
> I am contemplating powering from the main bus (through a 22 ohm
> resistor). For simplicity, a common feeder for both EI's then to a SPDT
> switch (Disable power to both EI's) then two NC push button switches for
> independent preflight check. No 5A CB's.
> As I had assigned one fuse slot to the original plan of one EI/one mag, I
> will use it with a 10A fuse. Running the EI's from the main buss assures
> they are disabled with the Master Switch.
> What am I missing?
>
> I did some fusible link testing that I will publish soon, that was to be
> the circuit protection for the EI's. I like the 22 ohm solution better.
>
> ...chris
>
There might be some confusion about Emag power vs control lines. A
resistor in the power feeder probably isn't a great idea.
The fact that Emags 'self power' when the engine is running above a certain
rpm kinda 'muddies the water', but... In general, the reason you (and they)
want engine electrons to come directly from the battery is so the system
operates like a traditional a/c, where shutting off the master has no
effect on the engine. Also in general, it's a bad idea to create 'single
points of failure' in a system. A single fuse for both ignitions means that
any fault in either system *or* a fault in the supply circuit takes out
both ignitions. As I said, the 'self power' feature does muddy the water a
bit on that, but still a bad habit to get into.
(Have I mentioned lately how much I despise the moron that came up with the
idea of 'top posting' back in the last century, resulting in
random order reading? Makes watching 'Memento' seem like a simple,
transparent process.)
Charlie
>
> On Wed, Dec 27, 2023 at 10:07=AFAM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
>> At 12:05 PM 12/23/2023, you wrote:
>>
>> ...appreciate your discussion and input!=C3=82 =C3=82
>>
>> This discussion is the result of the addition of two E-mags to the
>> current RV project and reviewing the Emag installation instruction. They
>> call for a circuit breaker in series with the power feeder for the
>> E-mag(s).=C3=82 I am using Z-13/8 as a reference guide for this build.
=C3=82 I am
>> considering a fusible link instead of a circuit breaker as I am running
out
>> of panel space.=C3=82 Thus my concern for both reliability and safety.
>>
>>
>> Aha! That's a whole different problem. If I'm reading
>> ElectroAir literature correctly, that input of bus
>> voltage to the EMag is a CONTROL signal for the
>> purpose of disabling the mag during engine run-up
>> and/or engine shut down. Input current to that
>> port is TINY . . . about 0.04 Amps. That feeder
>> is an excellent candidate "source impedance
>> fault limiting".
>>
>> Limiting a fault current to feeder friendly
>> levels: just splice a 22 ohm, 1-watt resistor
>> into the same spot you might use a fusible-link.
>> Cover with heat shrink.
>>
>> A short on that feeder would be limited to
>> 600 mA or less. Voltage drop would be 0.9 volts
>> or less . . . no effect on functionality.
>>
>> It's been a common technique in my toolbox
>> in a constellation of designs for decades.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>> ////
>> (o o)
>> ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======
==
>> < Go ahead, make my day . . . >
>> < show me where I'm wrong. >
>> =======================
=========
>>
>> In the interest of creative evolution
>> of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
>> on physics and good practice.
>>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Fusible link test results |
My very basic test rig with somewhat empirical results- no measured data.
Objective: observe failure of fusible links of various lengths when
subjected to a high current short circuit event.
12V wet cell, new, fully charged battery
Knife switch
18 ga tefzel feeder, 20" length x2
PIDG style butt splices (red)
Camera
DUT: 2", 6", 13" lengths 24 ga tefzel FL (M22759/16)
Procedure:
Fabricate fusible links of 2, 6 an 13 inch lengths
Crimp w/ AMP PIDG crimper to
Feeder 20" 18 ga tefzel
Clamp feeders to B+ Knife switch and B- battery terminal
Start camera video
Rabidly close switch
Two inch FL setup
[image: 2InchSetup.jpg]
Crimp tool and butt splice
[image: AmpCrimpTool.jpg]
results:
http://tinyurl.com/mryadbfx
No fiberglas sleeve was used so that failure could be observed.
Comments, questions, critique!
...chris
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