Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:40 AM - Re: Re: 2nd LSE Standby Power. (Charlie England)
2. 07:59 AM - Re: One for the battery gurus: recovery from deep discharge (Alec Myers)
3. 09:26 AM - Re: One for the battery gurus: recovery from deep discharge (Bob Verwey)
4. 11:54 AM - Re: 2nd LSE Standby Power. (user9253)
5. 04:26 PM - Re: 2nd LSE Standby Power. (andymeyer)
6. 04:55 PM - toggle switches better than Carling? (N1921R)
7. 05:16 PM - Re: 2nd LSE Standby Power. (andymeyer)
8. 08:18 PM - Re: 2nd LSE Standby Power. (user9253)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: 2nd LSE Standby Power. |
On Thu, Feb 1, 2024 at 9:11=AFPM user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I agree with Charlie about using 2 separate switches.
> Put dots on your schematic at wire junctions.
> The diode is backwards.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
> I thought the same thing about the diode, but after studying the action o
f
the switch, I think he has the diode oriented correctly for that desired
function. I still think separate switches make more sense, though.
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: One for the battery gurus: recovery from deep |
discharge
Here=99s how it turned out: 12 hours on a bench PSU at 14.4v, then
12 hours rest, then I attached a different =9Csmart=9D
charger that showed the battery as discharged, but did proceed to engage
the charging cycle. 24 hours after that, the charger was showing the
battery at 100% charge and it had enough juice to start the engine, and
I flew for about an hour.
Hopefully it will maintain enough energy to power a start cycle again,
some time next week.
Thanks for the comments, Bob!
On Jan 31, 2024, at 22:31, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
<nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
At 04:09 PM 1/30/2024, you wrote:
<alec@alecmyers.com>
>
> I have an SBS-J16 battery in an aircraft in which the battery master
was left on for two weeks (I know).
>
> When found, the open circuit terminal voltage had dropped to 2.2
volts. A Dewalt sophisticated battery charger didn=C3=A2=C2=C2=99t
want to have anything to do with it,
Yeah . . . many smart chargers do a pre-assessment of the target
battery and will not take on the task unless the terminal voltage
is above some minimum level . . . I have a couple chargers that
do this.
A temporary parallel connection of the smart-charger and some
other voltage source, like another battery will often convince
the charger that it's time to go to work.
Now, recall the days long before RG/GlasMat batteries.
The 'wet' stuff inside was (and still is) a dilute mixture
of water and sulfuric acid. Pure water is a very poor
conductor of electrons . . . but adding some
combination of free ions like salt, sodium bicarbonate,
or sulfuric acid to the water and it becomes a ready
conductor of current.
Recall that we could test the relative state of
charge for a lead-acid battery by measuring the
electrolyte's DENSITY with a hydrometer. The
legacy float/in/glass hydrometer is generally
calibrated in density vs. state of charge
where electrolyte 12% greater than 1.000
(pure water) is zero-percent; 26% is full
charge.
Note in attached figure (shamelessly stollen
off BatteryUniversity.com), 0% state of charge
on a 12 volt produces an open circuit reading
on the order of 11.9 volts.
You cited an open circuit voltage of 2.2 volts . . .
Hmmmm . . . less than 0% state of charge?
Actually, yes. Active material in the plates
had sucked still more acid from the electrolyte
than what would produce any useful energy
from the chemistry.
The closer to pure water . . . the more depressed
conductivity. Hence, first attempts to push energy
back into the battery will be met with lots of
resistance . . . no pun intended.
I recall reading a qualification test on
a Concorde battery document where a fully
discharged battery is dead-shorted for a
period of time after which a recharge
protocol calls for applying a higher than
normal voltage until significant recharge
current is observed. The test proceeds with
a normal constant voltage/constant current
charge. After top-off, the battery is cap-checked
and must demonstrate some minimum.
I dug around in the library but could not
come up with that document so I cannot quote
exact times and values. But note that this
is a quality test for a new battery. While
a certain level of degradation is expected,
the battery is EXPECTED to recover by some
minimum amount required for return to
service.
> so I=C3=A2=C2=C2=99ve now put it on charge with my bench power
supply at 14.4V limited to 4 amps.
> Initially the battery resistance was very high, and increasing - the
voltage was limited at 14.4V and the current dropped from 1.3 amps, to
about 1.1 amps, within a couple of minutes, and then started to ramp up,
about 1mA per second. After being on charge for an hour or so, the
current it is accepting has risen so the current limiting has kicked in,
presently at 4 amps and the terminal voltage has dropped to 14.3 V.
Yup, this is expected and you may well
recover this battery to some level for
continued service. After a 24-hour float
at 14.4, let it see idle for 24-hours
then do a cap check followed by recharge
and a load test.
> I=C3=A2=C2=C2=9Dm curious why the resistance was so high to start
with, why it has now dropped (to what seems =C3=A2=C2=C2=99normal=C3=A2
=C2=C2=99 charging behaviour to me) and also to know if this battery
has a chance of resurrection,. It=C3=A2=C2=C2=99s only a couple of
years old, so if it will soldier on after its mistreatment, I would be
happy. What are my chances, do you think?
As Lord Kelvin oft admonished, if you
don't know the numbers, what you DO know
is of limited value.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=======
==
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
========================
========
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
<Gravity vs StateOfCharge.jpg>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: One for the battery gurus: recovery from deep discharge |
In my case I had a newish deep cycle 12v100a/h battery in an inverter drop
to 3.6v...dont ask...
Anyway...the Victron charger didnt see the battery...put a 24v CTEK
intelligent charger on it got it to 15v in about 30min. Changed over to the
7amp Victron 12v smart charger...
I had just about given up after about 5 days when suddenly the charge light
went green!
Its been about a month and the battery seems fine. Maybe a bit of luck?
On Sat, 03 Feb 2024, 18:03 Alec Myers, <alec@alecmyers.com> wrote:
> Here=99s how it turned out: 12 hours on a bench PSU at 14.4v, then
12 hours
> rest, then I attached a different =9Csmart=9D charger that sh
owed the battery
> as discharged, but did proceed to engage the charging cycle. 24 hours aft
er
> that, the charger was showing the battery at 100% charge and it had enoug
h
> juice to start the engine, and I flew for about an hour.
>
> Hopefully it will maintain enough energy to power a start cycle again,
> some time next week.
>
> Thanks for the comments, Bob!
>
>
> On Jan 31, 2024, at 22:31, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
> At 04:09 PM 1/30/2024, you wrote:
>
>
> I have an SBS-J16 battery in an aircraft in which the battery master was
> left on for two weeks (I know).
>
> When found, the open circuit terminal voltage had dropped to 2.2 volts.
A
> Dewalt sophisticated battery charger didn=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t want t
o have anything to do
> with it,
>
>
> Yeah . . . many smart chargers do a pre-assessment of the target
> battery and will not take on the task unless the terminal voltage
> is above some minimum level . . . I have a couple chargers that
> do this.
>
> A temporary parallel connection of the smart-charger and some
> other voltage source, like another battery will often convince
> the charger that it's time to go to work.
>
> Now, recall the days long before RG/GlasMat batteries.
> The 'wet' stuff inside was (and still is) a dilute mixture
> of water and sulfuric acid. Pure water is a very poor
> conductor of electrons . . . but adding some
> combination of free ions like salt, sodium bicarbonate,
> or sulfuric acid to the water and it becomes a ready
> conductor of current.
>
> Recall that we could test the relative state of
> charge for a lead-acid battery by measuring the
> electrolyte's DENSITY with a hydrometer. The
> legacy float/in/glass hydrometer is generally
> calibrated in density vs. state of charge
> where electrolyte 12% greater than 1.000
> (pure water) is zero-percent; 26% is full
> charge.
>
> Note in attached figure (shamelessly stollen
> off BatteryUniversity.com), 0% state of charge
> on a 12 volt produces an open circuit reading
> on the order of 11.9 volts.
>
> You cited an open circuit voltage of 2.2 volts . . .
> Hmmmm . . . less than 0% state of charge?
> Actually, yes. Active material in the plates
> had sucked still more acid from the electrolyte
> than what would produce any useful energy
> from the chemistry.
>
> The closer to pure water . . . the more depressed
> conductivity. Hence, first attempts to push energy
> back into the battery will be met with lots of
> resistance . . . no pun intended.
>
> I recall reading a qualification test on
> a Concorde battery document where a fully
> discharged battery is dead-shorted for a
> period of time after which a recharge
> protocol calls for applying a higher than
> normal voltage until significant recharge
> current is observed. The test proceeds with
> a normal constant voltage/constant current
> charge. After top-off, the battery is cap-checked
> and must demonstrate some minimum.
>
> I dug around in the library but could not
> come up with that document so I cannot quote
> exact times and values. But note that this
> is a quality test for a new battery. While
> a certain level of degradation is expected,
> the battery is EXPECTED to recover by some
> minimum amount required for return to
> service.
>
>
> so I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2ve now put it on charge with my bench power
supply at 14.4V
> limited to 4 amps.
>
>
> Initially the battery resistance was very high, and increasing - the
> voltage was limited at 14.4V and the current dropped from 1.3 amps, to
> about 1.1 amps, within a couple of minutes, and then started to ramp up,
> about 1mA per second. After being on charge for an hour or so, the curren
t
> it is accepting has risen so the current limiting has kicked in, presentl
y
> at 4 amps and the terminal voltage has dropped to 14.3 V.
>
>
> Yup, this is expected and you may well
> recover this battery to some level for
> continued service. After a 24-hour float
> at 14.4, let it see idle for 24-hours
> then do a cap check followed by recharge
> and a load test.
>
>
> I=C3=A2=82=AC m curious why the resistance was so high to start with,
why it has now
> dropped (to what seems =C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2normal=C3=A2=82=AC
=84=A2 charging behaviour to me) and also to
> know if this battery has a chance of resurrection,. It=C3=A2=82=AC
=84=A2s only a couple of
> years old, so if it will soldier on after its mistreatment, I would be
> happy. What are my chances, do you think?
>
>
> As Lord Kelvin oft admonished, if you
> don't know the numbers, what you DO know
> is of limited value.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ////
> (o o)
> ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======
==
> < Go ahead, make my day . . . >
> < show me where I'm wrong. >
> =======================
=========
>
> In the interest of creative evolution
> of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
> on physics and good practice.
> <Gravity vs StateOfCharge.jpg>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: 2nd LSE Standby Power. |
You are right Charlie. I was wrong. I mistakenly thought the battery was
supposed to supply power to the main bus. Below are two schematics.
The top one functions the same as the OP's. The bottom schematic is simpler
but accomplishes the same goal.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513192#513192
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/aux_bat_for_lightspeed_ign_130.png
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| Subject: | Re: 2nd LSE Standby Power. |
Lightspeed Ignition. Klaus recommends that #1 be tied to the battery - it is.
#2 can be tied to the main or essential bus. This circuit is only for #2.
Thought here is that it's a single switch (less failure points - arguable... More
complex switch.) Master switch is progressive - alternator issue - click down
to the center position. This switch would have the same mentality. It'd also
never be a "Boldface switch flip" unless all power went away on the aircraft
(Battery dead short, took out alternator and backup alternator - too many failures
in that chain for this to be boldface.)
Any circuit issues with this design, along with a diode recommendation?
Diode reversed. Whoops - sorry about that. Fixed...
Thanks!
Andy
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513194#513194
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| Subject: | toggle switches better than Carling? |
After reading on VAF about failures of Carling toggle switches with faston tabs
attached with hollow rivets I was planning to use Honeywell TS but they have
been discontinued.
One VAF thread: https://vansairforce.net/threads/failing-intermittent-toggle-switch.172765/
I'd like to find good quality toggle switches that use faston tabs and come in
configurations like 2-10... any thoughts here on AEL?
I find APEM on Newark, part number 644H/2 for instance seems to be 2-10 configuration.
It has tabs called solder lug/quick-connect which have a larger thru hole
compared to what APEM calls normalized quick-connect tabs which have the smaller
through hole I am used to seeing. APEMs with normalized quick-connect tabs
are not stocked that I can find. The switch description says "terminal and
contact support is manufactured from a single piece of metal. The contacts are
resistance-welded to the terminal for increased mechanical strength". Bushing
dia is 12 mm which is practically the same, 0.004" larger, compared to the 15/32"
I am used to.
Newark page for APEM 644H/2: https://www.newark.com/apem/644h-2/switch-dp3t-10a-250vac/dp/96C7308
APEM 600H data sheet: https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1697794.pdf
--------
John Bright, RV-6A N1921R, working on FWF.
Single battery, alternator on main bus, Monkworkz generator on engine/essential
bus.
My links <a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YOtPiA3AdUsQEYR4nodBESNAo21rxdnx4pFs7VxXfuI/edit?pli=1">here</a>
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513195#513195
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| Subject: | Re: 2nd LSE Standby Power. |
Joe,
You mangled my schematic and made it better. I had the diode in the wrong spot.
In you configuration, in the top switch position, the engine keeps running if
the battery bus dies, runs off of the standby battery. In my drawing it didn't.
Thank you! I think that's my implementation. I want to be able to get the 2nd igntiion
as far away from anything else as possible, and that configuration does
exactly that.
Thank you for the diode recommendation as well - perfect.
Thanks!
Andy
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513196#513196
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| Subject: | Re: 2nd LSE Standby Power. |
While the main alternator is running, the 5AH standby battery should be
connected to the main bus to keep the standby battery charged.
My last schematic accomplishes that with only a diode. There is no concern
of parasitic aux battery drain because the diode has infinitesimal reverse leakage
current.
If the switch is closed, Ignition 2 will draw current from the source with the
highest voltage, which is normally the main bus, not the aux battery.
The definition of infinitesimal is the distance that an aircraft carrier sinks
into the water when a house fly lands on its deck. :-)
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513197#513197
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