---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 02/03/24: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:40 AM - Re: Re: 2nd LSE Standby Power. (Charlie England) 2. 07:59 AM - Re: One for the battery gurus: recovery from deep discharge (Alec Myers) 3. 09:26 AM - Re: One for the battery gurus: recovery from deep discharge (Bob Verwey) 4. 11:54 AM - Re: 2nd LSE Standby Power. (user9253) 5. 04:26 PM - Re: 2nd LSE Standby Power. (andymeyer) 6. 04:55 PM - toggle switches better than Carling? (N1921R) 7. 05:16 PM - Re: 2nd LSE Standby Power. (andymeyer) 8. 08:18 PM - Re: 2nd LSE Standby Power. (user9253) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:40:48 AM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: 2nd LSE Standby Power. On Thu, Feb 1, 2024 at 9:11=AFPM user9253 wrote: > > I agree with Charlie about using 2 separate switches. > Put dots on your schematic at wire junctions. > The diode is backwards. > > -------- > Joe Gores > > I thought the same thing about the diode, but after studying the action o f the switch, I think he has the diode oriented correctly for that desired function. I still think separate switches make more sense, though. Virus-free.www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:59:57 AM PST US From: Alec Myers Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: One for the battery gurus: recovery from deep discharge Here=99s how it turned out: 12 hours on a bench PSU at 14.4v, then 12 hours rest, then I attached a different =9Csmart=9D charger that showed the battery as discharged, but did proceed to engage the charging cycle. 24 hours after that, the charger was showing the battery at 100% charge and it had enough juice to start the engine, and I flew for about an hour. Hopefully it will maintain enough energy to power a start cycle again, some time next week. Thanks for the comments, Bob! On Jan 31, 2024, at 22:31, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: At 04:09 PM 1/30/2024, you wrote: > > I have an SBS-J16 battery in an aircraft in which the battery master was left on for two weeks (I know). > > When found, the open circuit terminal voltage had dropped to 2.2 volts. A Dewalt sophisticated battery charger didn=C3=A2=C2=C2=99t want to have anything to do with it, Yeah . . . many smart chargers do a pre-assessment of the target battery and will not take on the task unless the terminal voltage is above some minimum level . . . I have a couple chargers that do this. A temporary parallel connection of the smart-charger and some other voltage source, like another battery will often convince the charger that it's time to go to work. Now, recall the days long before RG/GlasMat batteries. The 'wet' stuff inside was (and still is) a dilute mixture of water and sulfuric acid. Pure water is a very poor conductor of electrons . . . but adding some combination of free ions like salt, sodium bicarbonate, or sulfuric acid to the water and it becomes a ready conductor of current. Recall that we could test the relative state of charge for a lead-acid battery by measuring the electrolyte's DENSITY with a hydrometer. The legacy float/in/glass hydrometer is generally calibrated in density vs. state of charge where electrolyte 12% greater than 1.000 (pure water) is zero-percent; 26% is full charge. Note in attached figure (shamelessly stollen off BatteryUniversity.com), 0% state of charge on a 12 volt produces an open circuit reading on the order of 11.9 volts. You cited an open circuit voltage of 2.2 volts . . . Hmmmm . . . less than 0% state of charge? Actually, yes. Active material in the plates had sucked still more acid from the electrolyte than what would produce any useful energy from the chemistry. The closer to pure water . . . the more depressed conductivity. Hence, first attempts to push energy back into the battery will be met with lots of resistance . . . no pun intended. I recall reading a qualification test on a Concorde battery document where a fully discharged battery is dead-shorted for a period of time after which a recharge protocol calls for applying a higher than normal voltage until significant recharge current is observed. The test proceeds with a normal constant voltage/constant current charge. After top-off, the battery is cap-checked and must demonstrate some minimum. I dug around in the library but could not come up with that document so I cannot quote exact times and values. But note that this is a quality test for a new battery. While a certain level of degradation is expected, the battery is EXPECTED to recover by some minimum amount required for return to service. > so I=C3=A2=C2=C2=99ve now put it on charge with my bench power supply at 14.4V limited to 4 amps. > Initially the battery resistance was very high, and increasing - the voltage was limited at 14.4V and the current dropped from 1.3 amps, to about 1.1 amps, within a couple of minutes, and then started to ramp up, about 1mA per second. After being on charge for an hour or so, the current it is accepting has risen so the current limiting has kicked in, presently at 4 amps and the terminal voltage has dropped to 14.3 V. Yup, this is expected and you may well recover this battery to some level for continued service. After a 24-hour float at 14.4, let it see idle for 24-hours then do a cap check followed by recharge and a load test. > I=C3=A2=C2=C2=9Dm curious why the resistance was so high to start with, why it has now dropped (to what seems =C3=A2=C2=C2=99normal=C3=A2 =C2=C2=99 charging behaviour to me) and also to know if this battery has a chance of resurrection,. It=C3=A2=C2=C2=99s only a couple of years old, so if it will soldier on after its mistreatment, I would be happy. What are my chances, do you think? As Lord Kelvin oft admonished, if you don't know the numbers, what you DO know is of limited value. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======= == < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ======================== ======== In the interest of creative evolution of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based on physics and good practice. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:26:37 AM PST US From: Bob Verwey Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: One for the battery gurus: recovery from deep discharge In my case I had a newish deep cycle 12v100a/h battery in an inverter drop to 3.6v...dont ask... Anyway...the Victron charger didnt see the battery...put a 24v CTEK intelligent charger on it got it to 15v in about 30min. Changed over to the 7amp Victron 12v smart charger... I had just about given up after about 5 days when suddenly the charge light went green! Its been about a month and the battery seems fine. Maybe a bit of luck? On Sat, 03 Feb 2024, 18:03 Alec Myers, wrote: > Here=99s how it turned out: 12 hours on a bench PSU at 14.4v, then 12 hours > rest, then I attached a different =9Csmart=9D charger that sh owed the battery > as discharged, but did proceed to engage the charging cycle. 24 hours aft er > that, the charger was showing the battery at 100% charge and it had enoug h > juice to start the engine, and I flew for about an hour. > > Hopefully it will maintain enough energy to power a start cycle again, > some time next week. > > Thanks for the comments, Bob! > > > On Jan 31, 2024, at 22:31, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > > At 04:09 PM 1/30/2024, you wrote: > > > I have an SBS-J16 battery in an aircraft in which the battery master was > left on for two weeks (I know). > > When found, the open circuit terminal voltage had dropped to 2.2 volts. A > Dewalt sophisticated battery charger didn=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t want t o have anything to do > with it, > > > Yeah . . . many smart chargers do a pre-assessment of the target > battery and will not take on the task unless the terminal voltage > is above some minimum level . . . I have a couple chargers that > do this. > > A temporary parallel connection of the smart-charger and some > other voltage source, like another battery will often convince > the charger that it's time to go to work. > > Now, recall the days long before RG/GlasMat batteries. > The 'wet' stuff inside was (and still is) a dilute mixture > of water and sulfuric acid. Pure water is a very poor > conductor of electrons . . . but adding some > combination of free ions like salt, sodium bicarbonate, > or sulfuric acid to the water and it becomes a ready > conductor of current. > > Recall that we could test the relative state of > charge for a lead-acid battery by measuring the > electrolyte's DENSITY with a hydrometer. The > legacy float/in/glass hydrometer is generally > calibrated in density vs. state of charge > where electrolyte 12% greater than 1.000 > (pure water) is zero-percent; 26% is full > charge. > > Note in attached figure (shamelessly stollen > off BatteryUniversity.com), 0% state of charge > on a 12 volt produces an open circuit reading > on the order of 11.9 volts. > > You cited an open circuit voltage of 2.2 volts . . . > Hmmmm . . . less than 0% state of charge? > Actually, yes. Active material in the plates > had sucked still more acid from the electrolyte > than what would produce any useful energy > from the chemistry. > > The closer to pure water . . . the more depressed > conductivity. Hence, first attempts to push energy > back into the battery will be met with lots of > resistance . . . no pun intended. > > I recall reading a qualification test on > a Concorde battery document where a fully > discharged battery is dead-shorted for a > period of time after which a recharge > protocol calls for applying a higher than > normal voltage until significant recharge > current is observed. The test proceeds with > a normal constant voltage/constant current > charge. After top-off, the battery is cap-checked > and must demonstrate some minimum. > > I dug around in the library but could not > come up with that document so I cannot quote > exact times and values. But note that this > is a quality test for a new battery. While > a certain level of degradation is expected, > the battery is EXPECTED to recover by some > minimum amount required for return to > service. > > > so I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2ve now put it on charge with my bench power supply at 14.4V > limited to 4 amps. > > > Initially the battery resistance was very high, and increasing - the > voltage was limited at 14.4V and the current dropped from 1.3 amps, to > about 1.1 amps, within a couple of minutes, and then started to ramp up, > about 1mA per second. After being on charge for an hour or so, the curren t > it is accepting has risen so the current limiting has kicked in, presentl y > at 4 amps and the terminal voltage has dropped to 14.3 V. > > > Yup, this is expected and you may well > recover this battery to some level for > continued service. After a 24-hour float > at 14.4, let it see idle for 24-hours > then do a cap check followed by recharge > and a load test. > > > I=C3=A2=82=AC m curious why the resistance was so high to start with, why it has now > dropped (to what seems =C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2normal=C3=A2=82=AC =84=A2 charging behaviour to me) and also to > know if this battery has a chance of resurrection,. It=C3=A2=82=AC =84=A2s only a couple of > years old, so if it will soldier on after its mistreatment, I would be > happy. What are my chances, do you think? > > > As Lord Kelvin oft admonished, if you > don't know the numbers, what you DO know > is of limited value. > > > Bob . . . > > //// > (o o) > ===========o00o=(_)=o00o====== == > < Go ahead, make my day . . . > > < show me where I'm wrong. > > ======================= ========= > > In the interest of creative evolution > of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based > on physics and good practice. > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:54:38 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: 2nd LSE Standby Power. From: "user9253" You are right Charlie. I was wrong. I mistakenly thought the battery was supposed to supply power to the main bus. Below are two schematics. The top one functions the same as the OP's. The bottom schematic is simpler but accomplishes the same goal. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513192#513192 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/aux_bat_for_lightspeed_ign_130.png ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:26:01 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: 2nd LSE Standby Power. From: "andymeyer" Lightspeed Ignition. Klaus recommends that #1 be tied to the battery - it is. #2 can be tied to the main or essential bus. This circuit is only for #2. Thought here is that it's a single switch (less failure points - arguable... More complex switch.) Master switch is progressive - alternator issue - click down to the center position. This switch would have the same mentality. It'd also never be a "Boldface switch flip" unless all power went away on the aircraft (Battery dead short, took out alternator and backup alternator - too many failures in that chain for this to be boldface.) Any circuit issues with this design, along with a diode recommendation? Diode reversed. Whoops - sorry about that. Fixed... Thanks! Andy Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513194#513194 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:55:28 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: toggle switches better than Carling? From: "N1921R" After reading on VAF about failures of Carling toggle switches with faston tabs attached with hollow rivets I was planning to use Honeywell TS but they have been discontinued. One VAF thread: https://vansairforce.net/threads/failing-intermittent-toggle-switch.172765/ I'd like to find good quality toggle switches that use faston tabs and come in configurations like 2-10... any thoughts here on AEL? I find APEM on Newark, part number 644H/2 for instance seems to be 2-10 configuration. It has tabs called solder lug/quick-connect which have a larger thru hole compared to what APEM calls normalized quick-connect tabs which have the smaller through hole I am used to seeing. APEMs with normalized quick-connect tabs are not stocked that I can find. The switch description says "terminal and contact support is manufactured from a single piece of metal. The contacts are resistance-welded to the terminal for increased mechanical strength". Bushing dia is 12 mm which is practically the same, 0.004" larger, compared to the 15/32" I am used to. Newark page for APEM 644H/2: https://www.newark.com/apem/644h-2/switch-dp3t-10a-250vac/dp/96C7308 APEM 600H data sheet: https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1697794.pdf -------- John Bright, RV-6A N1921R, working on FWF. Single battery, alternator on main bus, Monkworkz generator on engine/essential bus. My links here Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513195#513195 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:16:22 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: 2nd LSE Standby Power. From: "andymeyer" Joe, You mangled my schematic and made it better. I had the diode in the wrong spot. In you configuration, in the top switch position, the engine keeps running if the battery bus dies, runs off of the standby battery. In my drawing it didn't. Thank you! I think that's my implementation. I want to be able to get the 2nd igntiion as far away from anything else as possible, and that configuration does exactly that. Thank you for the diode recommendation as well - perfect. Thanks! Andy Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513196#513196 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:18:42 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: 2nd LSE Standby Power. From: "user9253" While the main alternator is running, the 5AH standby battery should be connected to the main bus to keep the standby battery charged. My last schematic accomplishes that with only a diode. There is no concern of parasitic aux battery drain because the diode has infinitesimal reverse leakage current. If the switch is closed, Ignition 2 will draw current from the source with the highest voltage, which is normally the main bus, not the aux battery. The definition of infinitesimal is the distance that an aircraft carrier sinks into the water when a house fly lands on its deck. :-) -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513197#513197 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.