Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:29 AM - Re: toggle switches better than Carling? (Ken Ryan)
2. 09:16 AM - Re: toggle switches better than Carling? (Charlie England)
3. 09:54 AM - Re: toggle switches better than Carling? (Matthew S. Whiting)
4. 12:07 PM - Re: toggle switches better than Carling? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 12:32 PM - Re: One for the battery gurus: recovery from deep discharge (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 02:45 PM - Re: toggle switches better than Carling? (N1921R)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: toggle switches better than Carling? |
Nikkai (NKK) switches seem good to me and they are available in fast on
configuration.
On Sat, Feb 3, 2024 at 3:58=AFPM N1921R <RV.6A.N1921R@gmail.com> wrot
e:
>
>
> After reading on VAF about failures of Carling toggle switches with fasto
n
> tabs attached with hollow rivets I was planning to use Honeywell TS but
> they have been discontinued.
>
> One VAF thread:
> https://vansairforce.net/threads/failing-intermittent-toggle-switch.17276
5/
>
> I'd like to find good quality toggle switches that use faston tabs and
> come in configurations like 2-10... any thoughts here on AEL?
>
> I find APEM on Newark, part number 644H/2 for instance seems to be 2-10
> configuration. It has tabs called solder lug/quick-connect which have a
> larger thru hole compared to what APEM calls normalized quick-connect tab
s
> which have the smaller through hole I am used to seeing. APEMs with
> normalized quick-connect tabs are not stocked that I can find. The switch
> description says "terminal and contact support is manufactured from a
> single piece of metal. The contacts are resistance-welded to the terminal
> for increased mechanical strength". Bushing dia is 12 mm which is
> practically the same, 0.004" larger, compared to the 15/32" I am used to.
>
> Newark page for APEM 644H/2:
> https://www.newark.com/apem/644h-2/switch-dp3t-10a-250vac/dp/96C7308
>
> APEM 600H data sheet: https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1697794.pdf
>
> --------
> John Bright, RV-6A N1921R, working on FWF.
> Single battery, alternator on main bus, Monkworkz generator on
> engine/essential bus.
> My links <a href="
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YOtPiA3AdUsQEYR4nodBESNAo21rxdnx4pFs7
VxXfuI/edit?pli=1
> ">here</a>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513195#513195
>
>
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>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: toggle switches better than Carling? |
On Sat, Feb 3, 2024 at 6:58=AFPM N1921R <RV.6A.N1921R@gmail.com> wrot
e:
>
>
> After reading on VAF about failures of Carling toggle switches with fasto
n
> tabs attached with hollow rivets I was planning to use Honeywell TS but
> they have been discontinued.
>
> One VAF thread:
> https://vansairforce.net/threads/failing-intermittent-toggle-switch.17276
5/
>
> I'd like to find good quality toggle switches that use faston tabs and
> come in configurations like 2-10... any thoughts here on AEL?
>
> I find APEM on Newark, part number 644H/2 for instance seems to be 2-10
> configuration. It has tabs called solder lug/quick-connect which have a
> larger thru hole compared to what APEM calls normalized quick-connect tab
s
> which have the smaller through hole I am used to seeing. APEMs with
> normalized quick-connect tabs are not stocked that I can find. The switch
> description says "terminal and contact support is manufactured from a
> single piece of metal. The contacts are resistance-welded to the terminal
> for increased mechanical strength". Bushing dia is 12 mm which is
> practically the same, 0.004" larger, compared to the 15/32" I am used to.
>
> Newark page for APEM 644H/2:
> https://www.newark.com/apem/644h-2/switch-dp3t-10a-250vac/dp/96C7308
>
> APEM 600H data sheet: https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1697794.pdf
>
> --------
> John Bright, RV-6A N1921R, working on FWF.
> Single battery, alternator on main bus, Monkworkz generator on
> engine/essential bus.
> My links <a href="
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YOtPiA3AdUsQEYR4nodBESNAo21rxdnx4pFs7
VxXfuI/edit?pli=1
> ">here</a>
>
>
> Hi John,
Did you read the entirety of that VAF thread? Might be worth your time to
go back and re-read it, assigning weight to what's significant. Your
takeaway about hollow rivets might be the most insignificant thing in the
thread. ;-) There are also some criticisms of supposed failure points where
the responder got the failure point wrong. Only one responder mentioned
multiple failures; that could have been a bad batch of switches, or 'pilot
error'. Consider that quite a few of us have seen failures of milspec
circuit breakers; does that mean *everyone* should find a different circuit
breaker?
(I was the 1st responder to that VAF thread.)
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: toggle switches better than Carling? |
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Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: toggle switches better than Carling? |
At 11:15 AM 2/4/2024, you wrote:
>On Sat, Feb 3, 2024 at 6:58=AFPM N1921R
><<mailto:RV.6A.N1921R@gmail.com>RV.6A.N1921R@gmail.com> wrote:
>"N1921R" <<mailto:RV.6A.N1921R@gmail.com>RV.6A.N1921R@gmail.com>
>
>After reading on VAF about failures of Carling
>toggle switches with faston tabs attached with
>hollow rivets I was planning to use Honeywell TS
>but they have been=C2 discontinued.
>
>One VAF thread:
><https://vansairforce.net/threads/failing-intermittent-toggle-switch.172765
/>https://vansairforce.net/threads/failing-intermittent-toggle-switch.172765
/
>
>I'd like to find good quality toggle switches
>that use faston tabs and come in configurations
>like 2-10... any thoughts here on AEL?
Failed after 660 hrs??? How many years of service and
under what manner of environmental/service stress? Was
root cause for the failure skillfully diagnosed?
I've studied and resolved dozens of 'contact failures'
in a constellation of relays and switches that
ranged from hardware-store to mil-spec devices.
There were very few instances wherein
studies were the basis for 'upgrading' a
failed device.
The Carling switch configuration under discussion
has been used in very high volumes in aircraft
for decades. We're just making the change-over
to those switches (with rocker actuators)
at Cessna when I worked there in 1965.
Yes, there were field failures but relatively
rare in the grand scheme of things with majority
of failures attributable to conditions external
to the switch . . . moisture, bad
terminal crimp, poor fast-on-grip, etc.
So what's the benchmark for satisfactory
service life? Is the failure of any switch
a potential for uncomfortable termination
of flight? If so, what about the myriad
of peripheral components of that system?
Had a reader many moons ago who was worried
about the quality of his landing light
switch . . . I had to remind him, "You do
know those bulbs burn out sometime."
Do your FMEA and strive to have no single
failure become a hazard to comfortable
completion of flight.
Did a study on roll trim relays on Beechjets
way back when where contacts were sticking
shut causing the occasional hard-over runaway
in roll trim.
After much study and bench tests I discovered
a design consideration that didn't manifest
until a redesign of the trim system replaced
legacy 10A relays (mil-spec no less) with
a 5A relay (also mil-spec). I discovered
that arcing during contact bounce was
exacerbated by reflections of energy
from the far end of a shielded wire
bypassed with a fat capacitor. Clip
the shield ground or eliminate the
capacitor (neither one of which was
needed) and the problem resolved.
During the investigation of some 2+
years, I did discover that one brand
of relay was a bit more tolerant of
the abuse. Management in their infinite
wisdom purged stock of the 'bad' relay
and banned them from future purchase.
The 'good' relay was substituted and
life went on . . . that way nobody
had to change any drawings.
Yeah, that's a short story made long but
I hope it illustrates the value in having
good data as to cause/effect and cost/benefit
before changing course from a well worn pathway.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=======
=
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
========================
========
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: One for the battery gurus: recovery from deep |
discharge
At 11:25 AM 2/3/2024, you wrote:
>In my case I had a newish deep cycle=C2 12v100a/h
>battery in an inverter drop to 3.6v...dont ask...
>
>Anyway...the Victron charger didnt see the
>battery...put a 24v CTEK intelligent charger on
>it got it to 15v in about 30min. Changed over to
>the 7amp Victron 12v smart charger...
>
>I had just about given up after about 5 days
>when suddenly the charge light went green!
>
>Its been about a month and the battery seems fine. Maybe a bit of luck?
It may have been quite predictable. When
the battery is discharge to LESS than zero,
i.e. open terminal volts less than 12.0
V and SG below 1.12, then what's left of
the acid is free do mischief on the battery's
innards . . . like sulfation at an
accelerated rate.
In the fully charged state, the negative plate
consists of lead; the positive plate is
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_dioxide>lead dioxide.
The electrolyte has a higher concentration acid
which is where chemical energy is stored.
When discharged, both the positive and negative plates
become lead sulfate; the electrolyte becomes less
acid and more water.
The lead sulfate is initially fine grains and
convertible back into hydrogen sulfide thus
increasing strength of the acid. Depending
on depth and duration of discharge, SOME of
the lead sulfate forms hard, insoluble crystals
thus diminishing battery CAPACITY.
Without a doubt, your battery has experienced
and extra-ordinary, deep-discharge which will
have consumed more of its service life than
if it had been subjected to a normal
discharge-recharge cycle.
Bob . . .
////
(o o)
===========o00o=(_)=o00o=======
=
< Go ahead, make my day . . . >
< show me where I'm wrong. >
========================
========
In the interest of creative evolution
of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based
on physics and good practice.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: toggle switches better than Carling? |
Thanks guys for bringing me back to reality.
--------
John Bright, RV-6A N1921R, working on FWF.
Single battery, alternator on main bus, Monkworkz generator on engine/essential
bus.
My links <a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YOtPiA3AdUsQEYR4nodBESNAo21rxdnx4pFs7VxXfuI/edit?pli=1">here</a>
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513206#513206
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