Today's Message Index:
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1. 08:10 AM - Re: Fuel System Manager (user9253)
2. 09:43 AM - Re: Fuel System Manager (user9253)
3. 09:46 AM - Re: Fuel System Manager (911pete)
4. 10:07 AM - Re: Fuel System Manager (911pete)
5. 11:11 AM - Re: Fuel System Manager (Eric Page)
6. 11:53 AM - Re: Fuel System Manager (911pete)
7. 12:58 PM - Re: Fuel System Manager (Eric Page)
8. 01:20 PM - Re: Fuel System Manager (911pete)
9. 06:47 PM - Re: Fuel System Manager (user9253)
10. 06:57 PM - Re: Fuel System Manager (911pete)
11. 07:29 PM - Re: Fuel System Manager (user9253)
12. 07:33 PM - Re: Fuel System Manager (Eric Page)
13. 07:33 PM - Re: Fuel System Manager (911pete)
14. 08:38 PM - Re: Fuel System Manager (911pete)
15. 08:50 PM - Re: Fuel System Manager (911pete)
16. 11:07 PM - Re: Fuel System Manager (Eric Page)
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel System Manager |
Below are a couple of links to websites about the Viper Jet for anyone interested.
https://youtu.be/t_QnUYNVE-U
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viper_Aircraft_ViperJet
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Joe Gores
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel System Manager |
Pete, I made a diagram of the Viper Jet fuel system based on my interpretation
of your description. It is unlikely that I got it right. Please make corrections.
Understanding how the system is supposed to work is the first step in designing
the electrical fuel controls.
I used a very simple CAD program called Express.sch
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Joe Gores
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel System Manager |
Ok, but I dont see a diagram
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel System Manager |
Now I see it
Pretty close. The main tank is vented. The fuel lines from the wing tanks go to
the pump. The pump is not electrical, it is a jet pump that uses high pressure
fuel from the engine to create low pressure to draw fuel from the wings to
the main tank. In your diagram the fuel would flow from the wings through the
pump to the main tank. Fuel also flows from the engine in your diagram through
the solenoid (when open) and pump to the tank. The fuel supply to the engine
isnt depicted and doesnt need to be. There are also one way check valves between
the wing tank solenoids and the pump so fuel can only come out of the wing
tanks. The main tank has a high and low level sensor to signal when the valves
should open or close. The goal is to always keep the main tank full until the
wings are empty
Pete
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel System Manager |
A few more questions:
1. With a vented main tank, can we assume that even in MANUAL mode, the Main Tank
High Level sensor should close the LPFSs to prevent main tank over-filling
and fuel loss via the vent? Or, is the main tank vented to one or both wing tanks?
2. Is there: a) one jet pump, powered by the high pressure return line from the
engine-driven pump and supplied by the two low pressure lines from the wing tanks,
-or- b) two jet pumps, one in each wing tank, sharing the high pressure
return?
3. If 2.a. is true, can the pump favor one wing tank over the other due to minor
differences in head pressure? If this happens, causing one wing tank to empty
first and its fuel feed line to unport, will the jet pump suck air instead
of fuel, making the fuel remaining in the other wing tank unusable?
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel System Manager |
1. Yes I would want the high level sensor to close the LPFS to prevent overfilling.
The tank is vented to atmosphere via a vent line exiting the bottom of the
fuselage.
2. There is only want jet pump mounted in the cockpit with both wings feeding into
it
3. The possibility exists for the tanks to feed unevenly. It is my understanding
that if one tank is dry it would still feed from the other tank. If not then
that tanks transfer switch could be placed in off with the other side in Manual
or Auto which should close the LPFS for the empty tank.
In the event of electrical failure all solenoids open since they are NO which would
over fill the main tank to the point of venting but allow the main tank to
remain full until all wing fuel is gone giving you time to land before fuel
exhaustion
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel System Manager |
OK, great.
Regarding the switches, I'm assuming they're SPDT toggles; if not, what are they?
Can you describe how they're wired? Are all three terminals connected to
the PLC, or is the common (middle) terminal connected to 28V or to ground? Exactly
which mode corresponds to each toggle position?
Maybe the wiring isn't done yet... Is this a finished aircraft that's grounded
due to fuel controller failure, or an in-progress build project?
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel System Manager |
Your second thought is correct. This is a plane under construction. Viperjet ceased
operations and I never got their fuel computer so no wiring is done, but
Im at that stage now.
I have all the parts except the brain to control them.
Joe asked me to draw a fuel system schematic and he will make it pretty and post
it.
The switches are Honeywell 2TL1-10 and not wired up at all. Should I post the info
on them?
Pete
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel System Manager |
I redrew the hydraulic circuit in my post above. The new version is based on a
sketch that Pete emailed to me.
Is it accurate Pete? Is it pretty? :-)
--------
Joe Gores
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=516867#516867
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel System Manager |
Yes it is much prettier than my hand sketch. Only comment is its a fuel circuit,
not hydraulic. When/if this is done I need something similar to control the
hydraulics, so this is like some foreshadowing
Pete
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel System Manager |
Pete,
Do the wing tanks have level sensors as part of the automatic fuel transfer system?
Do each of the fuel tanks have level sensors that are not part of the automatic
transfer system
but connect to gauges in the cockpit for the pilot to look at.
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Joe Gores
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel System Manager |
Joe, that looks like what I had in my head after this discussion.
For those following along, the Honeywell 2TL1-10 (MS27407-4) is a DPDT ON-ON-ON
switch. See the attached screen-grab from the datasheet for its functional drawing.
Pete, do you have a diagram that shows how this system was supposed to be wired?
It would be helpful to see how the switches would have interacted with the
PLC and the solenoids, and where 28V and ground enter the circuit.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=516870#516870
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/2tl1_10_function_209.jpg
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel System Manager |
Each tank has a Princeton capacitive sensor to display fuel qty in the cockpit.
This is separate from the fuel transfer system
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=516871#516871
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel System Manager |
I have a parts list to build the Fuel Computer, and a pinout list for the computer.
No programming information.
The pinout list that shows where the wires go is somewhat cryptic. Each acronym
is for a wiring harness, for example LFPT#2 is left fuel pass through #2. I
have all the information for each wiring harness so I could trace it if necessary.
Ignore anything with Tip in it. That is for optional tip tanks which I
don't have, and if I add them there is a simple 28V fuel pump controlled by a
switch that just dumps the fuel into each respective wing tank. Totally manual
and doesn't need to go through the fuel computer
This PLC setup is almost 20 years old. If there is another way to accomplish this
via relays/circuitry or something like an arduino (which I have no experience
with) I'm OK with it. Whatever is easiest
Pete
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=516872#516872
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/afc_price_list_218.pdf
http://forums.matronics.com//files/afc_112.pdf
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel System Manager |
OK I found another sheet that shows the switches. I might have the wrong ones.
This sheet shows 2TL1-1 used as the transfer switch. I have attached a copy
that shows that and what is hooked up to the various poles
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=516873#516873
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/switches_104.pdf
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel System Manager |
OK, the 2TL1-1 is a standard DPDT ON-OFF-ON switch.
-----
You're not kidding about the wiring harness documents being cryptic! They'll take
some effort to figure out.
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It looks like the E10+ PLC is still sold by Triangle Research:
https://triplc.com/e10npn.htm
Also available from Latin-Tech:
https://tinyurl.com/22hhj7zu+
There are links near the bottom of the page to download free programming software,
a help document and a command reference manual.
That said, learning ladder logic programming just for this project is probably
a steep hill to climb, so even with the PLC available it might not be the best
solution. Let's think on this a bit more...
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