Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:12 AM - Re: Autopilot (aerosiam)
2. 03:08 AM - Aileron control problem (aerosiam)
3. 04:14 AM - Re: Aileron control problem (Brad Kramer)
4. 11:45 AM - Re: Aileron control problem (aerosiam)
5. 12:59 PM - Re: Re: Aileron control problem (Brad Kramer)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
OK, I'll get some photos in a few days.
A friend of mine made a template for the brackets in stiff paper for the shop to
cut and bend. It looked like a cereal packet cut diagonally. The Allegro is
a simple installation and the fairly short arm movements mean it cannot go over-center.
The standard Dynon install kit worked and the rod ends go direct onto
the controls without a mod. The box with the flap motor electrics had to be
moved and the left aileron stop trimmed.
Paul
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=303076#303076
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Aileron control problem |
I have had a problem with the feel and response of the ailerons since new.
There feels like a stiffness or binding around the center point for about an inch
then the stick moves freely and the ailerons get progressively lighter the
more the stick is deflected. Also, in flight there is sometimes a small left or
right 'kick' thru the stick also about an inch movement. I have only flown 1
Allegro and I don't know what 'normal' feels like.
Could pilots assist by commenting on their Allegros
1. Is there any stiffness around the center point?
2. Does the stick get lighter the more you move it?
3. Do you ever feel a slight 'kick' thru the stick from the ailerons?
The red bellcrank shaft in the cockpit was misalighned in the factory by about
an inch. They had simply pulled it and forced it thru the front bushing. I realigned
it and replaced the nylon bushings with teflon.
In flight, the ailerons used to deflect up until they were flush with the reflexed
flaperons (about 4 degrees) I removed the long wing pushrods and replaced
them with stiffer steel rods. The original aluminum rods showed signs of wear
at 1 point (where 1 of the 3 nylon bearing wheels made contact) It cured the ailerons
deflecting at cruise speed and initially seemed to improve the aileron
feel. (See an earlier post and photo Feb 2008) but then the original problem
remained.
There doesn't appear to be any binding in the wing bellcranks, rod ends or anything
else. On the ground, the system seems perfect and has only 200 hours.
The plane is unpleasant to fly especially in turbulence. Around the center, the
stick has a similar feel to a throttle friction set a little too tight. The stick
moves and responds but every movement takes a slight push after which it
travels free.
Rolling 30 left, thru 30 righ however, the stick feels fine and doesn't have any
drag when passing thru the center.
An pilot/engineer friend of mine has gone thru the system and flown the plane.
he said the control response felt abnormal. He disassembled the cockpit bellcrank
then clamped the wing rod ends looking for play, wear or binding in every
part. Nothing.
An airline pilot who started flying ultralights flew it and commented there was
nothing smooth and progressive about the roll response from straight and level
flight.
Can other owners assist and say if they have experienced any of the above or whether
the Allegro has a normal feel or a light feel or whatever.
Paul
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=303077#303077
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Aileron control problem |
That certainly doesn't sound normal. By comparison, on long flights I usu
ally just rest my hand at the base of the stick and give it a gentle nudg
e as needed to keep straight & level. I haven't noticed any significant b
reakout force and the control response seems normal (except for that sens
itive rudder, but that's another story).
It sounds like you've already covered all the usual suspects. The fact th
at it only happens in the air should be an important clue. Is there exces
s play in any of the aileron hinges? Maybe one of the ailerons is twistin
g or moving rearward in flight and causing some binding that you don't ex
perience on the ground. Does the breakout force vary with airspeed? Does
flap deflection make a difference?
I'm also curious about the need for stiffer pushrods. I know with the one
s on my plane (2003 Allegro 2000) the ailerons don't deflect up in flight
. Maybe whatever was causing the deflection is still an issue, but the st
eel rods fixed one of the symptoms.
It almost sounds like the ailerons are rigged too low. You are 4 degrees
below the flaps, but are you sure the flaps are correct? Or maybe the win
gs themselves are misrigged and causing an aerodynamic difference (and th
erefore binding) between the two ailerons.
If there is a big difference in the angle between the two flaps or a lot
of rudder trim set on the tab, those can be indications that your aileron
s or wings are not rigged correctly.
It should be a very nice handling plane, so I certainly hope you get it f
ixed.
Best of Luck.
Brad Kramer
N221FA - Bismarck ND USA
I have had a problem with the feel and response of the ailerons since new
.
There feels like a stiffness or binding around the center point for about
an inch then the stick moves freely and the ailerons get progressively l
ighter the more the stick is deflected. Also, in flight there is sometime
s a small left or right 'kick' thru the stick also about an inch movement
. I have only flown 1 Allegro and I don't know what 'normal' feels like.
Could pilots assist by commenting on their Allegros
1. Is there any stiffness around the center point?
2. Does the stick get lighter the more you move it?
3. Do you ever feel a slight 'kick' thru the stick from the ailerons?
The red bellcrank shaft in the cockpit was misalighned in the factory by
about an inch. They had simply pulled it and forced it thru the front bus
hing. I realigned it and replaced the nylon bushings with teflon.
In flight, the ailerons used to deflect up until they were flush with the
reflexed flaperons (about 4 degrees) I removed the long wing pushrods an
d replaced them with stiffer steel rods. The original aluminum rods showe
d signs of wear at 1 point (where 1 of the 3 nylon bearing wheels made co
ntact) It cured the ailerons deflecting at cruise speed and initially see
med to improve the aileron feel. (See an earlier post and photo Feb 2008)
but then the original problem remained.
There doesn't appear to be any binding in the wing bellcranks, rod ends o
r anything else. On the ground, the system seems perfect and has only 200
hours.
The plane is unpleasant to fly especially in turbulence. Around the cente
r, the stick has a similar feel to a throttle friction set a little too t
ight. The stick moves and responds but every movement takes a slight push
after which it travels free.
Rolling 30 left, thru 30 righ however, the stick feels fine and doesn't h
ave any drag when passing thru the center.
An pilot/engineer friend of mine has gone thru the system and flown the p
lane. he said the control response felt abnormal. He disassembled the coc
kpit bellcrank then clamped the wing rod ends looking for play, wear or b
inding in every part. Nothing.
An airline pilot who started flying ultralights flew it and commented the
re was nothing smooth and progressive about the roll response from straig
ht and level flight.
Can other owners assist and say if they have experienced any of the above
or whether the Allegro has a normal feel or a light feel or whatever.
Paul
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=303077#303077
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Aileron control problem |
Brad
Thanks for your detailed reply.
The hinges on the right wing have almost no wear. In contrast, there is slight
wear on all the left hinges especially the outer one. The vertical wear seems
minor but when the system is clamped and the trailing edge pushed up, it will
deflect about 2 degrees.
The breakout force seems to get worse with duration of flight rather than airspeed.
Another weird factor in the equation.
Flap setting does not make a difference.
I think you are right that removing the wings and replacing the rods cured a symptom
by coincidence rather than dealt with the problem.
I will check your suggestions. The flaps appear reflexed at 4.5 degrees and the
ailerons are flush with the tips. I will look at the relative flap angles and
rudder trim.
The left aileron trim tab is bent up slightly, the right is level. The plane rolls
more easily to the right (presumably it should be the other way round due
to torque)
Regards
Paul
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=303139#303139
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Aileron control problem |
Wow. Related to duration of flight??? Could that mean it is temperature r
elated... either something getting warm in the cockpit or cold in the win
g? I can only think of 2 things that change during flight... temperature
and weight (& CG).
Sounds like the aileron/flap rigging is OK.
I don't recall if I have a tab on each aileron. I probably do, even thoug
h I'm not sure why that would be. Might be worth setting them to neutral
so they aren't working against each other and causing some weird problem.
It seems to me that having a tab on each aileron could cause ailerons to
droop or recess in flight and may even increase the breakout force since
there's more inertia to overcome when you first move the stick. (That's
my theory, and I'll stick to it for at least another 10 minutes. I should
n' t even speculate on such things when we have mechanical engineers like
Thom Riddle on the list).
The only other thing I can think of is the freedom of movement of the tor
que tube that the control stick attaches to. For instance if something tw
ists just a little bit in flight compared to being on the ground. Or some
thing like the brake cable is restricting movement.
Sounds frustrating. Should be a big sense of accomplishment when you fina
lly figure it out (and discover it is a simple 5 minute fix).
good luck.
Brad N221FA
-----Original Message-----
From: aerosiam [mailto:pk@aero-siam.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 01:44 PM
Subject: Allegro-List: Re: Aileron control problem
led reply. The hinges on the right wing have almost no wear. In contrast,
there is slight wear on all the left hinges especially the outer one. Th
e vertical wear seems minor but when the system is clamped and the traili
ng edge pushed up, it will deflect about 2 degrees. The breakout force se
ems to get worse with duration of flight rather than airspeed. Another we
ird factor in the equation. Flap setting does not make a difference. I th
ink you are right that removing the wings and replacing the rods cured a
symptom by coincidence rather than dealt with the problem. I will check y
our suggestions. The flaps appear reflexed at 4.5 degrees and the aileron
s are flush with the tips. I will look at the relative flap angles and ru
dder trim. The left aileron trim tab is bent up slightly, the right is le
vel. The plane rolls more easily to the right (presumably it should be th
e other way round due to torque) Regards Paul Read this topic online here
=====
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|