---------------------------------------------------------- Allegro-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 06/30/10: 5 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:12 AM - Re: Autopilot (aerosiam) 2. 03:08 AM - Aileron control problem (aerosiam) 3. 04:14 AM - Re: Aileron control problem (Brad Kramer) 4. 11:45 AM - Re: Aileron control problem (aerosiam) 5. 12:59 PM - Re: Re: Aileron control problem (Brad Kramer) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:12:01 AM PST US Subject: Allegro-List: Re: Autopilot From: "aerosiam" OK, I'll get some photos in a few days. A friend of mine made a template for the brackets in stiff paper for the shop to cut and bend. It looked like a cereal packet cut diagonally. The Allegro is a simple installation and the fairly short arm movements mean it cannot go over-center. The standard Dynon install kit worked and the rod ends go direct onto the controls without a mod. The box with the flap motor electrics had to be moved and the left aileron stop trimmed. Paul Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=303076#303076 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:08:59 AM PST US Subject: Allegro-List: Aileron control problem From: "aerosiam" I have had a problem with the feel and response of the ailerons since new. There feels like a stiffness or binding around the center point for about an inch then the stick moves freely and the ailerons get progressively lighter the more the stick is deflected. Also, in flight there is sometimes a small left or right 'kick' thru the stick also about an inch movement. I have only flown 1 Allegro and I don't know what 'normal' feels like. Could pilots assist by commenting on their Allegros 1. Is there any stiffness around the center point? 2. Does the stick get lighter the more you move it? 3. Do you ever feel a slight 'kick' thru the stick from the ailerons? The red bellcrank shaft in the cockpit was misalighned in the factory by about an inch. They had simply pulled it and forced it thru the front bushing. I realigned it and replaced the nylon bushings with teflon. In flight, the ailerons used to deflect up until they were flush with the reflexed flaperons (about 4 degrees) I removed the long wing pushrods and replaced them with stiffer steel rods. The original aluminum rods showed signs of wear at 1 point (where 1 of the 3 nylon bearing wheels made contact) It cured the ailerons deflecting at cruise speed and initially seemed to improve the aileron feel. (See an earlier post and photo Feb 2008) but then the original problem remained. There doesn't appear to be any binding in the wing bellcranks, rod ends or anything else. On the ground, the system seems perfect and has only 200 hours. The plane is unpleasant to fly especially in turbulence. Around the center, the stick has a similar feel to a throttle friction set a little too tight. The stick moves and responds but every movement takes a slight push after which it travels free. Rolling 30 left, thru 30 righ however, the stick feels fine and doesn't have any drag when passing thru the center. An pilot/engineer friend of mine has gone thru the system and flown the plane. he said the control response felt abnormal. He disassembled the cockpit bellcrank then clamped the wing rod ends looking for play, wear or binding in every part. Nothing. An airline pilot who started flying ultralights flew it and commented there was nothing smooth and progressive about the roll response from straight and level flight. Can other owners assist and say if they have experienced any of the above or whether the Allegro has a normal feel or a light feel or whatever. Paul Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=303077#303077 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:14:12 AM PST US From: "Brad Kramer" Subject: Re: Allegro-List: Aileron control problem That certainly doesn't sound normal. By comparison, on long flights I usu ally just rest my hand at the base of the stick and give it a gentle nudg e as needed to keep straight & level. I haven't noticed any significant b reakout force and the control response seems normal (except for that sens itive rudder, but that's another story). It sounds like you've already covered all the usual suspects. The fact th at it only happens in the air should be an important clue. Is there exces s play in any of the aileron hinges? Maybe one of the ailerons is twistin g or moving rearward in flight and causing some binding that you don't ex perience on the ground. Does the breakout force vary with airspeed? Does flap deflection make a difference? I'm also curious about the need for stiffer pushrods. I know with the one s on my plane (2003 Allegro 2000) the ailerons don't deflect up in flight . Maybe whatever was causing the deflection is still an issue, but the st eel rods fixed one of the symptoms. It almost sounds like the ailerons are rigged too low. You are 4 degrees below the flaps, but are you sure the flaps are correct? Or maybe the win gs themselves are misrigged and causing an aerodynamic difference (and th erefore binding) between the two ailerons. If there is a big difference in the angle between the two flaps or a lot of rudder trim set on the tab, those can be indications that your aileron s or wings are not rigged correctly. It should be a very nice handling plane, so I certainly hope you get it f ixed. Best of Luck. Brad Kramer N221FA - Bismarck ND USA I have had a problem with the feel and response of the ailerons since new .. There feels like a stiffness or binding around the center point for about an inch then the stick moves freely and the ailerons get progressively l ighter the more the stick is deflected. Also, in flight there is sometime s a small left or right 'kick' thru the stick also about an inch movement . I have only flown 1 Allegro and I don't know what 'normal' feels like. Could pilots assist by commenting on their Allegros 1. Is there any stiffness around the center point? 2. Does the stick get lighter the more you move it? 3. Do you ever feel a slight 'kick' thru the stick from the ailerons? The red bellcrank shaft in the cockpit was misalighned in the factory by about an inch. They had simply pulled it and forced it thru the front bus hing. I realigned it and replaced the nylon bushings with teflon. In flight, the ailerons used to deflect up until they were flush with the reflexed flaperons (about 4 degrees) I removed the long wing pushrods an d replaced them with stiffer steel rods. The original aluminum rods showe d signs of wear at 1 point (where 1 of the 3 nylon bearing wheels made co ntact) It cured the ailerons deflecting at cruise speed and initially see med to improve the aileron feel. (See an earlier post and photo Feb 2008) but then the original problem remained. There doesn't appear to be any binding in the wing bellcranks, rod ends o r anything else. On the ground, the system seems perfect and has only 200 hours. The plane is unpleasant to fly especially in turbulence. Around the cente r, the stick has a similar feel to a throttle friction set a little too t ight. The stick moves and responds but every movement takes a slight push after which it travels free. Rolling 30 left, thru 30 righ however, the stick feels fine and doesn't h ave any drag when passing thru the center. An pilot/engineer friend of mine has gone thru the system and flown the p lane. he said the control response felt abnormal. He disassembled the coc kpit bellcrank then clamped the wing rod ends looking for play, wear or b inding in every part. Nothing. An airline pilot who started flying ultralights flew it and commented the re was nothing smooth and progressive about the roll response from straig ht and level flight. Can other owners assist and say if they have experienced any of the above or whether the Allegro has a normal feel or a light feel or whatever. Paul Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=303077#303077 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:45:04 AM PST US Subject: Allegro-List: Re: Aileron control problem From: "aerosiam" Brad Thanks for your detailed reply. The hinges on the right wing have almost no wear. In contrast, there is slight wear on all the left hinges especially the outer one. The vertical wear seems minor but when the system is clamped and the trailing edge pushed up, it will deflect about 2 degrees. The breakout force seems to get worse with duration of flight rather than airspeed. Another weird factor in the equation. Flap setting does not make a difference. I think you are right that removing the wings and replacing the rods cured a symptom by coincidence rather than dealt with the problem. I will check your suggestions. The flaps appear reflexed at 4.5 degrees and the ailerons are flush with the tips. I will look at the relative flap angles and rudder trim. The left aileron trim tab is bent up slightly, the right is level. The plane rolls more easily to the right (presumably it should be the other way round due to torque) Regards Paul Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=303139#303139 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:59:41 PM PST US From: "Brad Kramer" Subject: Re: Allegro-List: Re: Aileron control problem Wow. Related to duration of flight??? Could that mean it is temperature r elated... either something getting warm in the cockpit or cold in the win g? I can only think of 2 things that change during flight... temperature and weight (& CG). Sounds like the aileron/flap rigging is OK. I don't recall if I have a tab on each aileron. I probably do, even thoug h I'm not sure why that would be. Might be worth setting them to neutral so they aren't working against each other and causing some weird problem. It seems to me that having a tab on each aileron could cause ailerons to droop or recess in flight and may even increase the breakout force since there's more inertia to overcome when you first move the stick. (That's my theory, and I'll stick to it for at least another 10 minutes. I should n' t even speculate on such things when we have mechanical engineers like Thom Riddle on the list). The only other thing I can think of is the freedom of movement of the tor que tube that the control stick attaches to. For instance if something tw ists just a little bit in flight compared to being on the ground. Or some thing like the brake cable is restricting movement. Sounds frustrating. Should be a big sense of accomplishment when you fina lly figure it out (and discover it is a simple 5 minute fix). good luck. Brad N221FA -----Original Message----- From: aerosiam [mailto:pk@aero-siam.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 01:44 PM Subject: Allegro-List: Re: Aileron control problem led reply. The hinges on the right wing have almost no wear. In contrast, there is slight wear on all the left hinges especially the outer one. Th e vertical wear seems minor but when the system is clamped and the traili ng edge pushed up, it will deflect about 2 degrees. The breakout force se ems to get worse with duration of flight rather than airspeed. Another we ird factor in the equation. Flap setting does not make a difference. I th ink you are right that removing the wings and replacing the rods cured a symptom by coincidence rather than dealt with the problem. I will check y our suggestions. The flaps appear reflexed at 4.5 degrees and the aileron s are flush with the tips. I will look at the relative flap angles and ru dder trim. The left aileron trim tab is bent up slightly, the right is le vel. The plane rolls more easily to the right (presumably it should be th e other way round due to torque) Regards Paul Read this topic online here ===== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message allegro-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Allegro-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/allegro-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/allegro-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.