AnPMech-List Digest Archive

Sun 12/18/05


Total Messages Posted: 4



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 03:49 AM - Re: Automotive man goes AIR Motive (Mike Lehman)
     2. 06:28 AM - Re: AnPMech-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 12/17/05 (robert bean)
     3. 11:55 AM - Re: Re: AnPMech-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 12/17/05 (Brinker)
     4. 05:58 PM - BENDIX MAG TIMING (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 03:49:12 AM PST US
    From: "Mike Lehman" <lehmans@sympatico.ca>
    Subject: Re: Automotive man goes AIR Motive
    --> AnPMech-List message posted by: "Mike Lehman" <lehmans@sympatico.ca> My recollection of the fuel pump outlet pressure with Bendix RSA fuel injection used on Lycomings is 21-24 psig. If you go with a Facet type boost pump, pick the highest pressure model, about 9 psig. The engine will start fine but you likely will not have adequate pressure to keep the engine running in the event of an engine driven mechanical pump failure. The 'correct' 21-24 psig electric pumps are very expensive (see ACS catalogue). Mike Time: 10:40:55 AM PST US From: "Brinker" <brinker@cox-internet.com> Subject: Re: AnPMech-List: Automotive man goes AIR Motive --> AnPMech-List message posted by: "Brinker" <brinker@cox-internet.com> I was told that on the IO540 or any other Lycoming fuel injected engine that they required only 4-5 psi to operate the injection system. And that that was what the mechanical fuel pump was rated at. Which was astonishing to me since I only have experience with automobile type injection systems that normally have 40 psi plus to operate. Is the 4-5 psi correct ?


    Message 2


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    Time: 06:28:45 AM PST US
    From: robert bean <slyck@frontiernet.net>
    Subject: Re: AnPMech-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 12/17/05
    --> AnPMech-List message posted by: robert bean <slyck@frontiernet.net> I am as ignorant as any about the 540 FI, but have some familiarity with Bosch systems on VWs. Most automotive applications use a transfer pump (very low pressure) in the tank, to a main pump (anywhere from 100 to 50 lbs depending on system) up to a regulator at the engine which reduces it back down to 30-40 lbs, bypassing the excess back to the tank continously. Newer systems use lower pressures than older ones. -BB On 18, Dec 2005, at 2:55 AM, AnPMech-List Digest Server wrote: > * > > ================================================== > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive > ================================================== > > Today's complete AnPMech-List Digest can also be found in either of the > two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest > formatted > in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes > and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version > of the AnPMech-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor > such as Notepad or with a web browser. > > HTML Version: > > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/anpmech-list/Digest.AnPMech-List.2005 > -12-17.html > > Text Version: > > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/anpmech-list/Digest.AnPMech-List.2005 > -12-17.txt > > > ================================================ > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive > ================================================ > > > AnPMech-List Digest Archive > --- > Total Messages Posted Sat 12/17/05: 2 > > > Today's Message Index: > ---------------------- > > 1. 10:40 AM - Re: Automotive man goes AIR Motive (Brinker) > 2. 01:09 PM - Re: Automotive man goes AIR Motive > (FLYaDIVE@aol.com) > > > ________________________________ Message 1 > _____________________________________ > > > Time: 10:40:55 AM PST US > From: "Brinker" <brinker@cox-internet.com> > Subject: Re: AnPMech-List: Automotive man goes AIR Motive > > --> AnPMech-List message posted by: "Brinker" > <brinker@cox-internet.com> > > I was told that on the IO540 or any other Lycoming fuel > injected > engine that they required only 4-5 psi to operate the injection > system. And > that that was what the mechanical fuel pump was rated at. Which was > astonishing to me since I only have experience with automobile type > injection systems that normally have 40 psi plus to operate. Is the > 4-5 psi > correct ? If so with lets say 40 gallons of fuel in each tank I would > think > that gravity would supply at least close to this type pressure out of > a 3/8 > line. Although I have not done a test to show this. I believe I will > though > at a future date just to satisfy my curiosity. > I have a 94 model Chevy pickup that we recently changed the > throttle body design 350 engine over to a multi port fuel injected LT1 > engine. We did change the fuel pump to the proper pump for that engine > during installation. Was told the proper pump needed to put out 50-60 > psi > for the LT1. We still have not gotten the bugs out of the system yet > to get > the engine to run consistently. We have changed several sensors that > we're > suspect and still it was not running consistent. Finally we did a fuel > pressure check to discover the new fuel pump was weak and only > producing > around 7-9 psi. Have yet to change pump since it is a bear to replace > since > it is in the fuel tank. I am still driving the truck I just cannot use > full > throttle or at times (not all the time) will act as though the fuel > shut off > and it fall's on it's face. What I am getting at is that the pump is > putting > out anywhere from at least 40-50 psi less than the required pressure > but the > vehicle is still drivable and has sufficient power for normal driving. > To me > this is very interesting and indicates that "perhaps" all FI engines > will > operate on lower than published pressures. If this is true and the > Lycoming > only needs 4-5 psi to operate nomally (which I still have'nt verified) > then > the IO540 "should" run on much less than the 4-5 psi. Which would not > be > much. > I will still install the boost "safety" pump on my Comp 6 > just for > peace of mind and for quicker easier starting purposes. > Does anyone out there have the psi spec's on a IO540 or other > FI > aviation engines ? > > Thanks Randy > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Marvin Dupree" <97corvette@cox.net> > Subject: Re: AnPMech-List: Automotive man goes AIR Motive > > >> --> AnPMech-List message posted by: Marvin Dupree <97corvette@cox.net> >> >> the wings would have to be very high to provide the pressure required >> for fuel injection. hence the boast pump. >> marvin m20e >> On Dec 16, 2005, at 8:38 PM, FLYaDIVE@aol.com wrote: >> >>> --> AnPMech-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com >>> >>> In a message dated 12/16/05 1:31:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, >>> brinker@cox-internet.com writes: >>> >>>> Maybe Cessna is confident enough to not have boost pumps on their >>>> high wing planes >>> ================== >>> I don't know about ALL Cessnas, but the C-177 Cardinal has a boost >>> pump and >>> it is a high-wing >>> >>> Barry >>> "Chop'd Liver" >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 2 > _____________________________________ > > > Time: 01:09:20 PM PST US > From: FLYaDIVE@aol.com > Subject: Re: AnPMech-List: Automotive man goes AIR Motive > > --> AnPMech-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com > > Randy: > > I have enclosed my responce within the body of your eaml. Please read > on. > > Barry > ================================= > > In a message dated 12/17/2005 1:41:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, > brinker@cox-internet.com writes: > I was told that on the IO540 or any other Lycoming fuel > injected > engine that they required only 4-5 psi to operate the injection > system. And > that that was what the mechanical fuel pump was rated at. Which was > astonishing to me since I only have experience with automobile type > injection systems that normally have 40 psi plus to operate. Is the > 4-5 psi > correct ? > ------------------------------- > I must plead ignorance of the automotive fuel injected system. But my > question would be is that Supply Fuel pressure form the fuel tank or > INJECTION > > PRESSURE? I know diesel systems use about 1000 to 3000 PSI for their > fuel injection > > system. > ================================================== > > > If so with lets say 40 gallons of fuel in each tank I would think > that gravity would supply at least close to this type pressure out of > a 3/8 > line. Although I have not done a test to show this. I believe I will > though > at a future date just to satisfy my curiosity. > Gravity pressure is VERY nil. Here are some numbers to use: > A column of water 1 FOOT (12") of high will develope 0.432 PSI at sea > level. > Take the height of the gas in the wing at the wing height and SUBTRACT > the > Height of the Fuel Bowl above ground, and that will give you the > potential > height. > Now multiple that by 0.432 and that is how many PSI of fuel pressure > you will > develop. > Well, not really .... REMEMBER FUEL weights less than water. Water = 8 > Lbs/Gal and Fuel = 6 Lbs / Gal. > If you want to you can work out a ratio. > ======================================================= > > I have a 94 model Chevy pickup that we recently changed the > throttle body design 350 engine over to a multi port fuel injected LT1 > engine. We did change the fuel pump to the proper pump for that engine > during installation. Was told the proper pump needed to put out 50-60 > psi > for the LT1. We still have not gotten the bugs out of the system yet > to get > the engine to run consistently. We have changed several sensors that > we're > suspect and still it was not running consistent. Finally we did a fuel > pressure check to discover the new fuel pump was weak and only > producing > around 7-9 psi. Have yet to change pump since it is a bear to replace > since > it is in the fuel tank. I am still driving the truck I just cannot use > full > throttle or at times (not all the time) will act as though the fuel > shut off > and it fall's on it's face. What I am getting at is that the pump is > putting > out anywhere from at least 40-50 psi less than the required pressure > but the > vehicle is still drivable and has sufficient power for normal driving. > To me > this is very interesting and indicates that "perhaps" all FI engines > will > operate on lower than published pressures. If this is true and the > Lycoming > only needs 4-5 psi to operate nomally (which I still have'nt verified) > then > the IO540 "should" run on much less than the 4-5 psi. Which would not > be > much. > Randy, there is something else that you MUST consider. VOLUME OF FLOW! > What size fuel lines are in the car? I'd bet dollars to donuts that > they are > NOT 3/8". I'd bet that they are 1/3 that diameter ... 1/8" Diameter. > So you > would think that a 1/8" fuel line would require MORE pressure ... > WRONG! > Why? Because the fuel flow requirements in a car is in direct > proportion to HP. > > YES, some cars have TWICE the HP of our planes BUT! They do not run > at 65 - > 75 and 100% of their HP as a plane does. A car cruising at say 75 MPH > will use > > only about 20 HP in flat road cruse. > I use to race a Buick Skylark Custom, it had a 350 CID engine. I > wanted more > HP so I went to Dual 650 Holly's. I LOST POWER and sometimes > stumbled. Why? > Because the Dual 650 Holly's required MORE air flow and MORE FUEL ... > I had > to install a fuel pump back at the gas tank. That may be the problem > you are > having with your pickup. > ======================================== > > > I will still install the boost "safety" pump on my Comp 6 > just for > peace of mind and for quicker easier starting purposes. > Does anyone out there have the psi spec's on a IO540 or other > FI > aviation engines ? > If you are serious about this engine I would get the Maintenance and > Parts > Manual from Lycomming. I'm sure this information would be in there. > Barry > "Chop'd Liver" > ========================================== > > > Thanks Randy > > > Barry > "Chop'd Liver" > >


    Message 3


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    Time: 11:55:34 AM PST US
    From: "Brinker" <brinker@cox-internet.com>
    Subject: Re: AnPMech-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 12/17/05
    --> AnPMech-List message posted by: "Brinker" <brinker@cox-internet.com> I don't think I've ever seen a 2 pump system on an a OEM automobile application with a boost pump supplying a main pump, with acception of diesels of course. All I am fimiliar with have the high pressure pump in the tank. According to published info my LT1 requires 42 psi from the pump to operate correctly. I am not fimiliar with VW bosh systems.I only mentioned the pressure differential 50-60 psi normal pump output to the 7-9 psi output I have now to illustrate that they will run and operate for a daily driver on lower fuel output only as an interesting point and a possibility that "perhaps" all FI system's including a certified aircraft engine operate be the same way. And to possibly get an A&P onlist that may have encountered the same with a certified FI aircraft engine that was running ok but not producing 100% hp. Thanks for the VW info. but sorry I do not want to debate automobile fuel pressues on a airframe and powerplant list. Randy ----- Original Message ----- From: "robert bean" <slyck@frontiernet.net> Subject: AnPMech-List: Re: AnPMech-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 12/17/05 > --> AnPMech-List message posted by: robert bean <slyck@frontiernet.net> > > I am as ignorant as any about the 540 FI, but have some familiarity > with Bosch systems on VWs. Most automotive applications use > a transfer pump (very low pressure) in the tank, to a main pump > (anywhere from 100 to 50 lbs depending on system) up to a regulator > at the engine which reduces it back down to 30-40 lbs, bypassing > the excess back to the tank continously. Newer systems use lower > pressures than older ones. > -BB > On 18, Dec 2005, at 2:55 AM, AnPMech-List Digest Server wrote: > >> * >> >> ================================================== >> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive >> ================================================== >> >> Today's complete AnPMech-List Digest can also be found in either of the >> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest >> formatted >> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes >> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version >> of the AnPMech-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor >> such as Notepad or with a web browser. >> >> HTML Version: >> >> >> http://www.matronics.com/digest/anpmech-list/Digest.AnPMech-List.2005 >> -12-17.html >> >> Text Version: >> >> >> http://www.matronics.com/digest/anpmech-list/Digest.AnPMech-List.2005 >> -12-17.txt >> >> >> ================================================ >> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive >> ================================================ >> >> >> AnPMech-List Digest Archive >> --- >> Total Messages Posted Sat 12/17/05: 2 >> >> >> Today's Message Index: >> ---------------------- >> >> 1. 10:40 AM - Re: Automotive man goes AIR Motive (Brinker) >> 2. 01:09 PM - Re: Automotive man goes AIR Motive >> (FLYaDIVE@aol.com) >> >> >> ________________________________ Message 1 >> _____________________________________ >> >> >> Time: 10:40:55 AM PST US >> From: "Brinker" <brinker@cox-internet.com> >> Subject: Re: AnPMech-List: Automotive man goes AIR Motive >> >> --> AnPMech-List message posted by: "Brinker" >> <brinker@cox-internet.com> >> >> I was told that on the IO540 or any other Lycoming fuel >> injected >> engine that they required only 4-5 psi to operate the injection >> system. And >> that that was what the mechanical fuel pump was rated at. Which was >> astonishing to me since I only have experience with automobile type >> injection systems that normally have 40 psi plus to operate. Is the >> 4-5 psi >> correct ? If so with lets say 40 gallons of fuel in each tank I would >> think >> that gravity would supply at least close to this type pressure out of >> a 3/8 >> line. Although I have not done a test to show this. I believe I will >> though >> at a future date just to satisfy my curiosity. >> I have a 94 model Chevy pickup that we recently changed the >> throttle body design 350 engine over to a multi port fuel injected LT1 >> engine. We did change the fuel pump to the proper pump for that engine >> during installation. Was told the proper pump needed to put out 50-60 >> psi >> for the LT1. We still have not gotten the bugs out of the system yet >> to get >> the engine to run consistently. We have changed several sensors that >> we're >> suspect and still it was not running consistent. Finally we did a fuel >> pressure check to discover the new fuel pump was weak and only >> producing >> around 7-9 psi. Have yet to change pump since it is a bear to replace >> since >> it is in the fuel tank. I am still driving the truck I just cannot use >> full >> throttle or at times (not all the time) will act as though the fuel >> shut off >> and it fall's on it's face. What I am getting at is that the pump is >> putting >> out anywhere from at least 40-50 psi less than the required pressure >> but the >> vehicle is still drivable and has sufficient power for normal driving. >> To me >> this is very interesting and indicates that "perhaps" all FI engines >> will >> operate on lower than published pressures. If this is true and the >> Lycoming >> only needs 4-5 psi to operate nomally (which I still have'nt verified) >> then >> the IO540 "should" run on much less than the 4-5 psi. Which would not >> be >> much. >> I will still install the boost "safety" pump on my Comp 6 >> just for >> peace of mind and for quicker easier starting purposes. >> Does anyone out there have the psi spec's on a IO540 or other >> FI >> aviation engines ? >> >> Thanks Randy >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Marvin Dupree" <97corvette@cox.net> >> Subject: Re: AnPMech-List: Automotive man goes AIR Motive >> >> >>> --> AnPMech-List message posted by: Marvin Dupree <97corvette@cox.net> >>> >>> the wings would have to be very high to provide the pressure required >>> for fuel injection. hence the boast pump. >>> marvin m20e >>> On Dec 16, 2005, at 8:38 PM, FLYaDIVE@aol.com wrote: >>> >>>> --> AnPMech-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com >>>> >>>> In a message dated 12/16/05 1:31:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, >>>> brinker@cox-internet.com writes: >>>> >>>>> Maybe Cessna is confident enough to not have boost pumps on their >>>>> high wing planes >>>> ================== >>>> I don't know about ALL Cessnas, but the C-177 Cardinal has a boost >>>> pump and >>>> it is a high-wing >>>> >>>> Barry >>>> "Chop'd Liver" >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> ________________________________ Message 2 >> _____________________________________ >> >> >> Time: 01:09:20 PM PST US >> From: FLYaDIVE@aol.com >> Subject: Re: AnPMech-List: Automotive man goes AIR Motive >> >> --> AnPMech-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com >> >> Randy: >> >> I have enclosed my responce within the body of your eaml. Please read >> on. >> >> Barry >> ================================= >> >> In a message dated 12/17/2005 1:41:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, >> brinker@cox-internet.com writes: >> I was told that on the IO540 or any other Lycoming fuel >> injected >> engine that they required only 4-5 psi to operate the injection >> system. And >> that that was what the mechanical fuel pump was rated at. Which was >> astonishing to me since I only have experience with automobile type >> injection systems that normally have 40 psi plus to operate. Is the >> 4-5 psi >> correct ? >> ------------------------------- >> I must plead ignorance of the automotive fuel injected system. But my >> question would be is that Supply Fuel pressure form the fuel tank or >> INJECTION >> >> PRESSURE? I know diesel systems use about 1000 to 3000 PSI for their >> fuel injection >> >> system. >> ================================================== >> >> >> If so with lets say 40 gallons of fuel in each tank I would think >> that gravity would supply at least close to this type pressure out of >> a 3/8 >> line. Although I have not done a test to show this. I believe I will >> though >> at a future date just to satisfy my curiosity. >> Gravity pressure is VERY nil. Here are some numbers to use: >> A column of water 1 FOOT (12") of high will develope 0.432 PSI at sea >> level. >> Take the height of the gas in the wing at the wing height and SUBTRACT >> the >> Height of the Fuel Bowl above ground, and that will give you the >> potential >> height. >> Now multiple that by 0.432 and that is how many PSI of fuel pressure >> you will >> develop. >> Well, not really .... REMEMBER FUEL weights less than water. Water = 8 >> Lbs/Gal and Fuel = 6 Lbs / Gal. >> If you want to you can work out a ratio. >> ======================================================= >> >> I have a 94 model Chevy pickup that we recently changed the >> throttle body design 350 engine over to a multi port fuel injected LT1 >> engine. We did change the fuel pump to the proper pump for that engine >> during installation. Was told the proper pump needed to put out 50-60 >> psi >> for the LT1. We still have not gotten the bugs out of the system yet >> to get >> the engine to run consistently. We have changed several sensors that >> we're >> suspect and still it was not running consistent. Finally we did a fuel >> pressure check to discover the new fuel pump was weak and only >> producing >> around 7-9 psi. Have yet to change pump since it is a bear to replace >> since >> it is in the fuel tank. I am still driving the truck I just cannot use >> full >> throttle or at times (not all the time) will act as though the fuel >> shut off >> and it fall's on it's face. What I am getting at is that the pump is >> putting >> out anywhere from at least 40-50 psi less than the required pressure >> but the >> vehicle is still drivable and has sufficient power for normal driving. >> To me >> this is very interesting and indicates that "perhaps" all FI engines >> will >> operate on lower than published pressures. If this is true and the >> Lycoming >> only needs 4-5 psi to operate nomally (which I still have'nt verified) >> then >> the IO540 "should" run on much less than the 4-5 psi. Which would not >> be >> much. >> Randy, there is something else that you MUST consider. VOLUME OF FLOW! >> What size fuel lines are in the car? I'd bet dollars to donuts that >> they are >> NOT 3/8". I'd bet that they are 1/3 that diameter ... 1/8" Diameter. >> So you >> would think that a 1/8" fuel line would require MORE pressure ... >> WRONG! >> Why? Because the fuel flow requirements in a car is in direct >> proportion to HP. >> >> YES, some cars have TWICE the HP of our planes BUT! They do not run >> at 65 - >> 75 and 100% of their HP as a plane does. A car cruising at say 75 MPH >> will use >> >> only about 20 HP in flat road cruse. >> I use to race a Buick Skylark Custom, it had a 350 CID engine. I >> wanted more >> HP so I went to Dual 650 Holly's. I LOST POWER and sometimes >> stumbled. Why? >> Because the Dual 650 Holly's required MORE air flow and MORE FUEL ... >> I had >> to install a fuel pump back at the gas tank. That may be the problem >> you are >> having with your pickup. >> ======================================== >> >> >> I will still install the boost "safety" pump on my Comp 6 >> just for >> peace of mind and for quicker easier starting purposes. >> Does anyone out there have the psi spec's on a IO540 or other >> FI >> aviation engines ? >> If you are serious about this engine I would get the Maintenance and >> Parts >> Manual from Lycomming. I'm sure this information would be in there. >> Barry >> "Chop'd Liver" >> ========================================== >> >> >> Thanks Randy >> >> >> Barry >> "Chop'd Liver" >> >> > > >


    Message 4


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    Time: 05:58:11 PM PST US
    From: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
    Subject: BENDIX MAG TIMING
    --> AnPMech-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com Hey Group: Can someone help me out, I'm looking for TIMING instructions for a BENDIX MAG. I have info and experience with lots of SLICK MAGS but need some help with this BENDEX ... Crazy, but I can't recall when the last time was I did a BENDIX. Thank you, Barry "Chop'd Liver"




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