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| Subject: | Re: [Aviatia.ro] Re: F16 emisiune pe B1 tv |
--- Liviuscrisu:
> Aseara- 31 martie- a fost pe B1 tv , la "Nasul"=C2- o emisiune cu un pi
lot de vinatoare si un inginer de aviatie - maintenance sau asa ceva.=C2-
Amindoi , intrebati asupra achizitionarii lui F16 au dat-o in balarii, au
ocolit un raspuns transant, sau cel putin asa mi s=a parut mie. Deh, B1 T
V se stie ca e postul puterii
Poate ar fi interesant de impartasit experienta brazilienilor din perspecti
va unui jurnalist brazilian, Carlos Lorch, care se pare ca stie ce spune. I
n mod asemanator s-ar putea face o analiza pentru situatia din Romania.
Mi-am permis sa reproduc aici (pentru cei interesati) textul integral al ar
ticolului (exista public pe google):
REVISTA FORCA AEREA NOV 11 2009. By Carlos Lorch.
On September 7, during Brazil's Independence Day celebration, in the Brazil
ian Federal Capital, President Lu=EDs In=E1cio Lula da Silva and his French
peer, President Nicolas Sarkozy, made a joint announcement, which was then
both unexpected and inexplicable. Even before the Brazilian Air Force (FA
B) could release its much expected evaluation report where it is supposed t
o set out the advantages and disadvantages of the three competitors for the
FX-2 contract in order to select the next fighter aircraft that will equip
FAB, both rulers declared that the aircraft that should be negotiated in a
preferential way is the French Dassault Rafale.
The commotion that ensued was enormous, and ever before the public opinion
got so promptly involved in a debate on defense equipment and procurement p
rocesses in this area.
On the next day, Nelson Jobim, the Brazilian Minister of Defense, released
a statement that the decision was not yet made and that, besides Dassault,
its competitors, American Boeing, builder of the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, an
d Swedish Saab, builder of Gripen NG-BR, had the opportunity to improve the
ir offers. What exactly happened was never quite explained, but the fact i
s that the disturbance that followed the Brazilian National Day may have br
ought immense benefits to FAB and the nation. After the minister's stateme
nt, the Program was once again discussed within its original line of proced
ure, however, this time with intense participation of the public opinion.
It did not take long for a circus to be set up, and a real word and concept
battle to be waged, particularly on the media. Giving the usual discounts
to exaggerations from the so-called "one-time experts", the public could g
et a clearer idea of what was really at stake.
In absolute silence, FAB, the top stakeholder in the billionaire deal that
will dramatically seal the future of the force, restricted ' as it is bef
it in such cases ' to official communiqu=E9s while it continuous to focus
on finishing the report. According to recent information, the report had
already exceeded 26,000 pages, covering the most varied details of the thre
e aircraft's operating, logistics, technical, industrial and commercial asp
ects, as well as technology transfer and offset agreements.
For those who started following up the developments, many moves of impact c
ould be witnessed, such as the statement made by Hakan Jevrell, the Swedish
Vice Minister of Defense, that for the price of one Rafale Brazil could bu
y two Gripen NG-BR. Another example is the French President statement repe
atedly saying that France would unrestrictedly transfer the technology the
Rafale Brazil will feature. On the other hand, the Americans from Boeing s
ignaled with necessary technology transfer, which apparently positioned the
m in disadvantage. Bob Gower, Boeing senior executive for the F/A-18E/F ai
rcraft, waited for the right moment to return to the subject. He not only
said that Boeing could provide all the technology that FAB asked for but he
also questioned the unrestricted technology transfer for all components in
any aircraft by raising the issue of Intel's chip intellectual property th
at is used by computers installed in today's most fighters, including the R
afale, which was Gower's immediate target at that moment. These exchanges,
which are equally interesting and definitive, ended up showing what really
is at stake and how fierce industry companies and their countries are figh
ting in this real word and concept battle seeking victory in the -X2.
However, if, on one side, the exchange of concepts and ironies on the media
enables us to become more acquainted with each offer's benefits and limita
tions ' which all of them include to a lesser or greater extent ' on th
e other side, the heat of the discussions has not yet brought a focused and
objective debate of the subject that starts with the following question: "
Why do we need new fighter aircraft and how should we select them?"
Do we need new fighter aircraft?
Yes, we do, and we need them now. FAB has extended the operating lifecycle
of its fighter aircraft that include Northrop F-5M Tiger and Embraer A-1M
through a brilliant upgrading program that undoubtedly is an example for th
e World in terms of cost effectiveness. For approximately five million US
dollars per F-5 aircraft, FAB transformed a doctrinally outdated weapon fro
m the 70's into another one that is nimbler and more lethal and provides su
pport to current techniques and tactics. It was a bargain. And all this t
hanks to two policies derived from both FAB's and the Brazilian aviation in
dustry's vision of how important it is for the country to hold the reins of
each step in the process of implementing the chosen aircraft: By following
the strict 400-6 Aviation Ministry Guidelines for FAB's re-equipment proce
sses; and by the determination to enforce technology transfer by hands-on t
raining, meaning "Brazilian hands at work.". Today, because of this determ
ination, FAB is capable to perform its mission with an increasing degree of
professionalism, independence and economy.
However, FAB's fighter modernization programs started with a set expiration
date. It is not recommendable to re-modernize those aircraft without incu
rring increasingly higher costs if we factor in the benefits acquired in te
rms of operating efficiency. The F-5 is an aircraft from the 70's. It arr
ived in Brazil in 1975, and will fly in FAB's service until 2020, when it w
ill become irremediable obsolete. Decommissioning the A-1 from the 80's is
set for 2025. It is not possible extend the lifespan of both, whether in
operating or logistics terms.
FAB's first line of defense is made up by a fleet of Mirage 2000C/B fighter
s that are in service with the 1st Air Defense Group based in An=E1polis, s
tate of Goi=E1s. The aircraft, which were bought second hand to prevent th
e Anap=F3lis Base from being unable to defend Brazil's Capital City when th
e worn-down Mirage IIIEBR/DBR fighters will be decommissioned once and for
all in 2005, as they can only fly until 2013. They are old airplanes with
a limited structural life. Postponing their service beyond that year is ev
en more impossible.
Therefore, we have a calendar that categorically requires new fighters star
ting servicing in 2014. These fighters will not be bought to defend specif
ic areas, to confront this or that threat, and in no way to start or react
to an arms race. These fighters will simply upgrade Brazil's self-defense
capability by replacing a fighter generation that has already performed its
role.
The decision to buy new aircraft should be taken promptly, or we run the ri
sk of being deprived of a quality air defense at the time our current fleet
is decommissioned, which is set to occur in the near future.
We must also understand that because Brazil has the world's third largest a
ir space industry, it also has technical and scientific discernment not to
buy shelf equipment any longer as most non-hegemonic nations do. It is pre
cisely this industrial capability that requires technology transfer for new
projects, and the massive participation of Brazilian technicians in the pr
ocess. It is for this reason that the Brazilian airspace industry has requ
ired a Program, and not just the acquisition of replacement aircraft no mat
ter how modern they are. And such a program needs about five years to fulf
ill its cycle. Thus, if we want to have new fighters in 2014, we have to s
et in motion this program right now, without wasting more time.
Three in the race
Three aircraft compete for equipping FAB over the next three decades. Thes
e are jets that only fight among them in simulated drills or in internation
al procurement processes. Even so, when they confront each other in this p
rocess, they do it for real. For the F-X2, after three companies from the
initial grid were eliminated, Boeing with the F/A-18E/F, Dassault with the
Rafale F3 and Gripen with NG-BR, all three are next generation aircraft, we
re left.
The Super Hornet as the American F/A-18E/F is known is a two-engine aircraf
t capable of operating from aircraft carriers, and they were built on the t
raditional F/A-18C/D Hornet that equipped and still equips several US Navy
carriers. Compared to the Hornet, the Super Hornet is a new aircraft thoug
h it has several winning features from the former. This has significantly
reduced the new aircraft development costs. The Super Hornet is a fighter
20 percent larger and it is heavier than its predecessor. It can carry abo
ut 30 percent more fuel and its on-station time is increased by up to 50 pe
rcent. The F/A-18E/F flew for the first time in 1995, and production start
ed in 1997. Two years later it started operating with the US Navy. So far
some 400 Super Hornets have been built. The fighter replaced the Grumman
F-14 Tomcat, the Grumman A-6 Intruder and the Grumman KA-6D all at once. A
n electronic war version, the EA-18 Growler, is replacing the Grumman EA-6
Prowler on US Navy carriers. Streamlining the aircraft versions is providi
ng the US Navy with enormous savings and logistics efficiency.
In May 2007, the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) ordered 24 F/A-18E/F air
craft signing a contract that included training and maintenance and is wort
h approximately $4.6 billion USD. Besides taking part in the Brazilian pro
curement, the Super Hornet is also being offered to India, Denmark and Gree
ce now. Possible delays in the F-35 program can result in F/A-18E/F orders
for the USAF as an intermediary option. The aircraft is taking part in co
nflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan, in attack missions against insurgents.
The two-engine Dassault Rafale is a multirole fighter with delta-canard win
gs that has replaced the Sepecat Jaguar, Mirage F1, Mirage 2000 and Mirage
IV at the French Air Force, and the Dassault Super Etendard and the Vought
F-8 Crusader on board of the French Navy carriers. The Rafale concept demo
nstrator made its maiden flight in 1986, and three prototypes, one for each
version (C and D, one-seat and two-seat, for the Air Force, and M, one-sea
t, for the Navy), flew from 1991 to 1993. The first production Rafale M ma
de its maiden flight in 1999, and first deliveries started in 2001.
The initial order provided for 294 aircraft, with 234 for the Air Force, an
d 60 for the Navy. So far 120 fighters have been delivered. As of 2008, t
he total cost of the program was estimated to be about 39.6 billion Euros.
As the Super Hornet, the Dassault Rafale has taken part in ground attack m
issions in Afghanistan.
The Rafale has taken part in several international tenders but has been uns
uccessful so far. Today, besides Brazil, it competes in India, Greece and
Switzerland. Furthermore, the aircraft has also been offered to Libya, Kuw
ait, Oman, Poland and the United Arab Emirates. But for the time being, no
sale was made.
The Gripen NG is Swedish Saab's program based on the JAS-39 Gripen C/D figh
ter with the objective to exponentially increase the aircraft operating cap
ability without losing the predecessor's successful characteristics: low co
st and operating simplicity. The new in-project aircraft but with a concep
t demonstrator that has flown more than 120 hours since April 2008, feature
s a more powerful engine, increased fuel and payload capabilities, new avio
nics and in-air refueling capability, among other changes. The new engine
provides the aircraft with super cruise capability, i.e., supersonic flight
at speeds exceeding Mach 1.1, without using the after-burner. The convent
ional Gripen prototype had its maiden flight in 1988, and the last aircraft
was delivered to the Swedish Air Force in 2008 at a cost 10 percent less t
han the projected one. The price of the last batch of Swedish Gripen C/D f
ighters was less than $30 million per aircraft, without including weapons,
training, maintenance or spare parts. It started in service with the Swedi
sh Air Force in 1997, and for the time being 176 one-seat and 28 two-seat a
ircraft have been delivered. Fourteen Gripen fighters were delivered to th
e Czech Republic, 14 were bought by Hungary, 26 ordered by South Africa, an
d six by Thailand. Today, the company takes part in procurement processes
in Switzerland, Denmark, Rumania, and India and is answering to RFIs from B
ulgaria, Croatia and The Netherlands. For Brazil Saab is offering partners
hip in jointly developing the Gripen NG-BR program.
Operational ' Comes from the word operate
Operating an aircraft for any air force means flying and waging war against
enemies to be defeated. And to win any enemy in any circumstance, the air
craft to execute this mission must be capable of: 1. See the enemy before i
t is seen. 2. Deter weapons that can defeat it, and be available in times o
f war. 3. Feature a superior self-defense capability whether flying ' par
ticularly through reduced radar or thermal signatures and by means of early
warning and counter measures (particularly anti-missile systems) ' or on
ground ' with characteristics that reduce its dependability on fixed and
vulnerable bases. 4. Integrate with the force's warfare system, which incl
udes radars, early warning aircraft and flight control, communications, tac
tics, techniques and doctrines to maximize the existing equipment. 5. Have
the highest possible availability, i.e., significantly simple maintenance a
nd fast and efficient turn-around, which assures a higher number of sorties
' and therefore, increased presence in the battlefield. To that end the
aircraft has to: 6. Be in line with the air force budget to assure all ite
ms listed above. Just having a fighter aircraft is not enough. It will be
used for 30 years or more. This time comprises decades during which the a
ir force budget will determine the extent to which it will be able to use i
ts fighter aircraft. The shorter the extent the smaller will be the nation
's defense capability, as you cannot learn overnight how to fight your enem
ies in the sky.
Looking at the all competing aircraft under these priorities, we can say th
at the three aircraft that are offered to Brazil easily meet the requiremen
ts of a general air force. However, what changes in the specific aircraft
evaluation is how they perform the above requirements and how they adjust t
o the Brazilian model. In terms of sensors that provide early warning, the
three competitors offer next-generation or in-development radars. They ar
e synthetic aperture radars (SAR) that FAB knows well, as they operate simi
larly to those the E-99 Early Warning & Control aircraft uses. And all of
them have plenty of technology to integrate it with the aircraft. Among th
e systems the three aircraft use, the Northrop Grumman APG-79 radar is the
most advanced one, and the US Navy has been using it routinely. Rafale's R
BE2 is in the final development stage, and Gripen's is in an advanced desig
n stage. The same can be said for weapons. Americans and Swedes use Rayth
eon AIM-120 AMRAAM BVR-type medium-range missiles. The Scandinavian aircra
ft can also fire the next-generation Meteor missile. The French offer a co
mparable missile, the MBDA MICA, with the additional advantage of having tw
o missile guide heads ' electromagnetic and infrared. In the short range
arena, the Rafale uses the same missile while the American and the Swedish
aircraft use specific missiles for short-range combats, like the next-gene
ration AIM-9X Sidewinder or the Python 4 and 5 made in Israel. The Gripen
also uses the IRIS-T, the European next-generation short-range missile. In
this aspect, the key to differentiate the three aircraft are the missiles
that the Brazilian industry currently has in production and in development,
and that will be integrated with the winning aircraft. These are the weap
ons today in the short-range air-air dominance and in the anti-radiation ar
ena that will make the difference. Developed by Brazilian scientists they
hold secrets that provide FAB with an enormous advantage. The combination
of these weapon's production, homologation and operation will assure a giga
ntic growth for the increasingly important Brazilian missile industry. The
three competing companies can do it and therefore, the company that will m
ake this weapon integration with the aircraft it is offering for the smalle
r price will most certainly have an enormous advantage in the weapons dimen
sion. The Gripen is ahead of the others in this dimension as it is the air
craft that is testing the A-Darter in South Africa; the A-Darter is being j
ointly developed by South Africa and Brazil. The important thing in terms
of weapons is the availability of short- and medium-range air-air missiles,
anti-radiation missiles, all kinds of bombs, organic cannon, jammers, and
designation, reconnaissance and electronic warfare equipment.
In terms of self-defense the three aircraft are also capable of meeting FAB
's requirements to different extents. The electronic warfare systems direc
tly interact with the aircraft central computers and avionics; together wit
h weapons they are the most sensitive devices in operating terms. Brazil i
s interested to achieve the maximum independence possible in this field. T
o that end the three competitors will have to offer FAB a package that is a
bove all secure, which means the highest possible control on means. None o
f the three aircraft is a truly stealth aircraft. They are just stealthy,
meaning that they have a radar signature lower than previous-generation fig
hters but fall short of aircraft like the American Lockheed/Boeing F-22 Rap
tor that is today the US Air Force front line fighter. Like the Raptor, wh
ich is not for sale to other countries but the USA, we are left to dream on
it and buy the best possible solution. There are no doubts that FAB is cu
rrently studying radar, thermal and acoustic signatures of each one of the
competing aircraft, aspects of high importance to ensure future survival.
Most certainly the report will take these issues into account.
For FAB's new fighter aircraft to be integrated with the force carefully bu
ilt war system, the new aircraft's and FAB current aircraft's operating phi
losophies will have to converge. If a given aircraft was developed to perf
orm a specific role, adapting it to another operating system will require f
or this aircraft to undergo modifications and adjustments so that it can ef
ficiently operate with the Brazilian system, otherwise you have in hands a
round screw and a square nut. Palliative modifications will not suffice to
solve the problem at hand. The entire aircraft must efficiently fit to an
air force operating system. In the case of Brazil, having secure communic
ations that only Brazilian technicians develop and handle and that are used
with the Brazilian overall warfare system is paramount. That is why the n
ew F-X2 aircraft datalink is so important. FAB knows that this capability
today is fundamental to increase the aircraft situational awareness, which
translates into tactical advantages of the highest importance. Featuring t
his capability will assure an aircraft superiority over another in the sky,
even more than the payload an aircraft carries or the fighter's maneuverab
ility. It is the datalink that assures a systemic warfare operation, and i
t is in this that FAB is so interested. In addition, having the capability
of operating in a continental country ' and this requirement all aircraf
t fulfill ' is another essential aspect. Having the assurance of total i
ndependence in all stages of the aircraft development, operation and mainte
nance is a third item. Once again, the only one that can say how each one
of the competitors meet this is FAB, and this most certainly will be anothe
r part of FAB's important report.
In short, the issues of availability and compatibility with FAB's budget ca
n be resumed to the aircraft operating cost, and it is in this point that t
he Gripen NG-BR offers another advantage. The Gripen fighter was born with
the purpose to meet a series of requirements, including two that definitel
y affect the aircraft costs: It should cost from 60 to 65 percent less tha
n the Viggen, the fighter that the Gripen was supposed to replace; it shoul
d also weight half the Viggen's weight. Therefore, it is an aircraft that
was born to be small, light and cheap. Gripen competitors were designed wi
th different requirements, where acquisition and operating costs were not a
s important as other needs. This is the reason why the Swedish Defense Vic
e Minister stated that his aircraft is much less expensive. Just the fact
that it is a one-engine aircraft reduces its acquisition and operating cost
s. For some critics having one single engine harms the aircraft, and this
is refuted by the Swedish company. We researched the aircraft operating li
fe, and we found out that so far in nearly 22 years of service, five accide
nts with Gripen fighters occurred and none of them because of the engine.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidents_and_incidents_involving_the_JAS_39_
Gripen)
In fact, reliability of current aviation engines has reached a point that m
ade the Americans to choose a one-engine aircraft, the Lockheed Martin F-35
, to make up the backbone of their next-generation naval aircraft in an env
ironment where the tradition of flying two-engine aircraft has been virtual
ly a legend.
However, the discussion of one engine against two engines, and the importan
ce of the aircraft operating costs throughout the aircraft lifecycle is ano
ther category that most certainly FAB is being thoroughly assessing. Techn
ical issues are closely linked to the capability of successfully operating
any fighter aircraft, and it includes all support material, how the fighter
s adjust to local facilities, the training material, the possibility of usi
ng FAB's existing support equipment ' thus maximizing it ' and a wide
array of other considerations that are related with FAB's daily routine.
The mere fact that the three aircraft have been shortlisted indicates that
they meet FAB's operating requirements. However, the major operating diffe
rential is expected to be the impact of their operating costs on FAB's dail
y routine, a factor that takes into account the force reality, its capabili
ty to use the means it has, regional specifics and a vast series of other i
tems that directly affect its capability to have available an aircraft read
y to fly, and to generate training and combat missions.
But how to select a new fighter aircraft?
If we were a nation without the industrial park we have, this question woul
d be very easy to answer. It would be enough for FAB to set out operating
requirements for the new aircraft to meet ' missions, the opponents and t
he involved costs ' and look for the best offer on the market that would
meet such requirements. This is not the case, however.
For Brazil the new fighter has to satisfy a series of demands that aim to e
mpower not just our Air Force but also a technology industry that can provi
de Brazil with military industrial sovereignty, differentiating our nation
in the continent and across the world. It is for this reason that FAB has
been announcing ' for years ' that it will examine the FX-2 competitors
against seven categories, which we will remind again: Commercial, Technica
l, Operational, Logistics, Industrial, Offset Agreement and Technology Tran
sfer. Boeing released a document requesting that the American government a
pproves its package for Brazil. At press conferences they held, they provi
ded information on how they could implement technology transfer to FAB and
several Brazilian industries. According to this document, parts of which w
e reproduce below, it becomes clear why they have used the word "necessary"
instead of "unrestricted" when they refer to their package. Following are
the main offers made to Brazil:
1) Advanced technologies found in the Super Hornet;
2) Technologies that support the Brazilian objectives for national autonomy
3) Technologies that will globally foster Brazil's economic development.
To understand what comes with item one, we reproduce a document stating the
American Government intention to sell via FMS (Foreign Military Sales) 28
one-seat Super Hornet F/A-18E and eight two-seat F/A-18F in a package worth
up to $7 billion USD and that includes 72 F414-GE-400 installed engines, s
pare parts an non-defined ammunition. The document also lists the pieces o
f equipment that the US Defense Department released for FAB, and that are i
ncluded in the package that we reproduce next:
- Four F414-GE-400 spare engines
- 36 AN/APG-79 radar systems
- 36 LAU-127 launchers
- 44 Joint-Helmet-Mounted-Cueing-System (JHMCS) helmets
- 28 AIM-120C-7 AMRAAM medium-range missiles
- 28 AIM-9M Sidewinder short-range missiles
- 60 GBU-31/32 Joint Direct Attack Munitions glide bombs
- 10 AGM-88B Harm anti-radiation missiles
- 36 AN/ASQ-228(V2) ATFLIR designation/reconnaissance pods
- 36 AN/ALQ-214 communications jammers
- 40 AN/ALE-47 jammers
- 112 AN/ALE-50 towed decoy countermeasures
- Mission Planning System
- Training equipment and Brazilian personnel training
- Aircraft shipping including support for in-flight refueling aircraft
- Flight tests
- Software support
- Technical publications and documents
- Technical, logistics and engineering support
This is an initial document that provides us with an overall idea of the Am
erican offer. As FAB has received improved offers, it is very likely that
new elements have been communicated and have not yet been divulged. Howeve
r, this package gives us a quite good idea of the costs and the Super Horne
t comprehensiveness.
In addition, they also list
- Upgrading for integrated AESA, FLIR sensors and target-designation system
s;
- Upgrading for communications and networking systems; and
- New weapons integration
For the item 2, the offer lists:
- Super Hornet support and maintenance will be carried out in Brazil, and i
t will be for FAB and the Brazilian industry to carry out the works. The i
mplications are huge in respect to market and revenues;
- Access to the aircraft Flight Operating Program that interfaces with the
software applications of the subsystems developed in Brazil;
- Research in the supersonic aerodynamics field by supplying to Brazil a tr
isonic wind tunnel;
- Leading role ' in Brazil ' to integrate multiphase Brazilian weapon s
ystems;
- Final assembly, strip services and Super Hornet acceptance tests in Brazi
l;
- Super Hornet airframe;
- Flight tests in Brazil using instrumented aircraft;
- Modeling & Simulation Center;
- Distributed Mission Training;
-Integrated electronic technical manuals;
- Engine assembly, inspection, testing and tools;
- Training in minimizing radar signature and stealth technologies;
- Co-development of Super Hornet modifications; and
- Generating the threat database.
And finally, the Item 3 that provides for the offset agreement, the offers
includes the following:
- Machining technologies;
- Boeing Center for Integrated Capability focusing the evolution towards ne
xt-generation technologies;
- Support and co-development for the KC-390 critical design areas;
- Advanced material technologies and manufacture;
- Troubleshooting and repair of composite damages;
- Electronics material manufacturing;
- Micro electro mechanical systems;
- UAV;
- Internal safety technologies to assess critical infrastructures in Brazil
;
- Stock management by using automated tracking & control systems; and
- Airspace curriculum development and training.
Like Boeing, Dassault has also listed the advantages of its Rafale technolo
gy transfer program. The company did not specify the offers it made in its
initial package, did not listed the offers that accompany the aircraft it
is selling, and did not disclose the package price as well. Its proposal i
s geared towards technology transfer and the company lists: "65 projects in
cooperation with 38 Brazilian potential organizations/companies." Accordi
ng to the French company, these negotiations have already generated "39 let
ters of intent...with Brazilian partners." Included in the primary technol
ogies offered to Brazil, the document lists:
- Air-mechanics integration of weapons and pods
- Airframe engineering
- Critical RF modules to use in AESA radars
- Advanced DFCS)/DFCS technologies
- Engine integration
- Ground & flight test management pilot training
- Integrated support & maintenance (test bench, pilot trainer, mission plan
ning)
- Micro electro mechanical systems (MEMS)
- Multidisciplinary optimization
- Nanotechnology
- Inclusion of centric network operations, interoperability
- Onboard mission system development/improvement
- Optronics
- Space pyrotechnics applications
-Radar and mission planning software
- Simulation software development
- Stealth technologies
- Technologies for UAV network projects
They also offer the following but "subject to specific cooperation agreemen
ts":
- Airframe engineering
- Air-mechanic shop integration
- Mission system development/improvement
- Stealth and survival technologies
- Engine integration
- Optronics
- Piloting environment: mission planning and pilot trainer
Dassault also offers other technologies that the Brazilian industry is inte
rested in:
- VLS-1 satellite launcher program (space pyrotechnics)
- UAV technologies (Battle lab)
- Micro electro mechanical systems (MEMS)
- Nanotechnologies
- Cooperation to develop a turbojet engine for UAVs
Regarding the industry Dassault states that Embraer would have: "full exper
tise and autonomy to lead and perform' in cooperation with the Brazilian
aviation industry ' adaptations and future improvements to the Rafale air
craft and systems..."
It also mentions the possibility to transfer to Embraer the production of:
"the aircraft structural airframe parts..." providing as example the wings
but transfer could include: "a local assembly line for the Rafale starting
with the first batch of F-X2 aircraft". At a recent press conference, the
company proposed to assemble 30 out of the 36 aircraft in Brazil. Without
providing many details, Dassault executives explained to our reporters that
the aircraft assembled in Brazil could feature an increasing number of Bra
zilian-made elements up to a complete aircraft.
Saab's Gripen NG-BR offer is different from the other two as it offers a jo
int development Program for building a fighter aircraft and not an existing
one. They have not divulged a document listing the advantages they offer,
and rather chose to announce their offer to the media. At a press confere
nce with Saab's principal executive Bengt Janer, we were told that Saab's o
ffer includes 36 aircraft with around 80 percent of the airframe built in B
razil, and full Brazilian participation in the aircraft development, tests,
homologation, production and commercialization. According to J=E1ner, the
aircraft is born with export orders in its backlog as Sweden has already a
nnounce it will buy ' along with the Brazilian schedule ' an initial mi
nimum batch of 30 Gripen NG aircraft to total 66 aircraft sold since the ti
me the aircraft is born. It is a program similar to the AMX that in the 80
's leveraged the Brazilian aviation industry and resulted in a professional
competence that has furthered the industry to the third position among ind
ustry giants, and enabled the development of aircraft like those that Embra
er markets today. Opposed to the AMX Program, however, the Brazilian indus
try, particularly Embraer, was invited to be part in the Gripen NG-BR Progr
am, without any financial risk, i.e., without having to be a risk partner i
n the deal. And all this comes at a time when the Brazilian industry know-
how and technology competence is at a much advanced level. "It is precisel
y Embraer's and other Brazilian industry companies' competence and knowledg
e," said Janer, "that enables them to add value to the Program by bringing
an enormous advantage to Saab."
"Saab offer includes the supply and integration of all weapons FAB asked fo
r with the respective costs already included in the offer," said Janer and
added that, "Brazilian weapons as well as those the force already has will
also be integrated or re-qualified without any additional cost with the par
ticipation of Brazilian companies like Embraer and Mectron." To that end t
here are duly-signed letters of intent.
"Embraer, and other Brazilian industries, will execute the Gripen NG flight
test program in Brazil, which will enable the country to participate in lo
co and hands-on in the entire aircraft development, qualification and homol
ogation processes," he completed.
"In addition, Embraer and other companies will take part in radar integrati
on with the aircraft, from theoretical studies up to flight tests , and hom
ologation, something that our contenders cannot replicate,", said Janer.
Saab executives also called our attention to the possibility of integrating
100-percent Brazilian-made avionics and a made-in-Brazil high-speed data l
ink. "Developing these capabilities," said Janer, "is also included in the
package we offer FAB."
Industrial, Commercial and Technology Transference aspects ' The industry
is rooting in silence but not so much...
During the years after the time when brilliant Brigadier Casimiro Montenegr
o chose a large lot on the side of Dutra Road to install his Airspace Techn
ical Center, much has happened in the Brazilian aviation industry. This ar
ticle is not the place to list the achievements of all those who have endea
vored to provide Brazil with the wings our nation needed. Today we will ju
st mention that all these efforts and investments translate into one single
word: discernment. It is the capability to distinguish what is useful fro
m what is useless, to project the next steps to take, and to identify techn
ologies that can drive the Brazilian aviation further up to other levels.
And it is also that that can enable Brazil to know exactly how it should ac
quire new technologies because ' as it has been exhaustively explained in
these pages ' for acquiring technology is not enough to have someone wil
ling to transfer it, you have also to be ready to receive it. And Brazil i
s ready. It knows exactly what it needs and how it should engage to receiv
e it.
Regarding the FX-2, the press comments that actually are two aircraft and o
ne project in the arena. The Rafale and the Super Hornet are existing and
proven aircraft in service with incursions into areas with non-conventional
fight. The Gripen NG, on the other hand, would be a new project developed
with Brazil in mind; it has a concept demonstrator to validate or not the
technologies it offers. It is very difficult to conclude which is the best
offer for our country if you are not part of the Brazilian airspace indust
ry or the Air Force. However, by observing the come and go of words that h
ave been written by the media in the past weeks, we have become more and mo
re acquainted with the subject.
Today, Embraer operates in the two most important areas of the military avi
ation industry: the development of a medium-size transport aircraft, the KC
-390, and as recipient of technologies that will end up in a next-generatio
n fighter. The company undoubtedly needs partners that are willing to tran
sfer technologies that will help to simplify the aircraft development proce
ss. Maybe it is for this reason that statements favoring Gripen NG Program
circulate across the press. By the way, an article, which the American ma
gazine Show News published during July's 2009 Le Bourget Fair, addressed th
e same idea by analyzing the three offers and their potential developments,
particularly in respect to Embraer. This is precisely because the Gripen
NG is a new program and it is not just about assembling existing aircraft,
which is known as a shelf product. Since the very beginning Saab has state
d that all aircraft will be built in Brazil with a 40 percent work share fo
r Brazil and 60 percent for Sweden. According to Bengt Jan=E9r, "...both c
ompanies will take part 100 percent in the development activities." The NG
-BR will not have one single assembly line in the Scandinavian country. Th
e other two companies signal with assembling the fighters in Brazil but the
y know that it is not this that attracts the industry. The possibility of
launching a program from scratch and of having an aircraft that is 100 perc
ent updated on the day it enters service, ensures an enormous commercial pa
rticipation for the Brazilian industry on the global market with the fighte
r taking part in future tenders. This is an advantage for both industries:
Saab benefits from the Brazilian deployed capability and gets adjusted to
the Brazilian National Defense Strategy. Conversely, the Brazilian compani
es will be apt to benefit from the about 40 percent in each aircraft sold a
nywhere around the world. Boeing and Dassault also offer commercial partic
ipation for the Brazilian industry but as their aircraft already exist, the
y have to limit sales to the Latin American continent as there are other ag
reements in place around the world. In addition to hands-on technology tra
nsfer, Embraer will certainly be intent on the enormous commercial advantag
es that come with a project with such share of Brazilian industry participa
tion. This explains everything the press has written about the subject.
But it is not just Embraer that has an eye on this program. At Aeroeletr
nica, manufacturer of advanced avionics systems, the possibility of part
icipating in a program that started in Brazil opens enormous perspectives.
It does not matter that the Rio Grande do Sul company has not openly addre
ssed the subject. It is known that it has a 100-percent Brazilian fifth-ge
neration avionics project for HMDs to fit into F-22 and F-35 fighters. All
ied with VSI, the company that manufactures this revolutionary avionics sys
tem for USAF, the company must most certainly have access to the technologi
es used for the USAF products, and therefore, it must be able to generate a
Brazilian similar product that is equally capable and adjusted to the spec
ific avionics that it already provides FAB with. Adopting Brazilian avioni
cs systems not only assures the development of source codes in Brazil, a sc
enario that significantly pleases FAB, but it is also a specific advantage
that will certainly attract Aeroeletrnica as it provides for growth.
Another company that closely follows up the NG-BR Program is Mectron that m
anufactures advanced weapons and fire control radar systems. It has plenty
to gain with the F-X2. This company with headquarters in S=E3o Jos=E9 dos
Campos (SP) is interested in integrating the weapons it builds with the ne
w aircraft, and in the possibility to participate, together with Embraer, i
n integrating AESA radar thereby significantly multiplying its possibilitie
s in the scientific field.
In fact, virtually all leading Brazilian airspace companies have been conta
cted by the three competitors with industrial partnership proposals. Each
one has gauged its technology benefit that it might acquire and has made it
s choice, but they have also assured their participation in the winning pro
gram by signing letters of intent. Thus, Aeroeletrnica, Focal, Akaer, M
ectron, Atech and many others in a total of some 60 companies are getting s
trategically prepared to take part in the winning program, some of them wit
h the possibility of acquiring knowledge and others just as parts and compo
nents suppliers.
In order to attract Brazilian companies onboard their aircraft, the three c
ompanies have intensely campaigned at FIESP, the Federation of Industries i
n the State of S=E3o Paulo, which is the most active voice for the Brazilia
n defense industry. After weeks of presentations and answering questions,
two emblematic statements were issued. In the first one Jairo Cndido, h
ead of the Federation's Defense Industry Department, stated to the press th
at: "It has become clear that who is willing to make a broad, total and unr
estricted technology transfer, and to work with Brazilian companies are the
Swedes," and about the Gripen NG-BR: "...it enables the national producti
on of the 36 aircraft and involves the national industry in the program fro
m the very beginning." Walter Bartels, engineer and chairman of the Brazil
ian Association of Airspace Industries (AIAB), the industry sheltering umbr
ella, also declared his preference for the Swedish program, letting hanging
in the air the feeling that the battle for the national industry hearts an
d minds tilted towards a development program and not just in the direction
of industrially defined products.
And it is precisely the difference between fighters that can be assembled a
nd upgraded in Brazil, and a fighter that would be entirely developed, prod
uced and marketed in Brazil with heavy Brazilian participation, that attrac
ts the majority of the Brazilian industry.
Strategies
In mid 90's, the prestigious American think tank The Teal Group published a
n interesting article making projections on the Gripen because of the aircr
aft genesis as a fighter concerned with acquisition and operating costs. T
he article stated that the aircraft would be a great sales champion on the
following century's fighter aircraft market. The study noted that the diff
iculties the aircraft faced at that time to compete with other aircraft lik
e the Lockheed Martin F-16, the Mirage 2000 and others, which were marketed
at similar prices, would be overcome in the following years when it would
compete with two-engine aircraft at much higher acquisition and operation c
osts in a time when budget would be the essential factor supporting acquisi
tion decisions.
Conducting its own analysis Saab intelligently improved the aircraft operat
ing capabilities to increase range and payload without, however, letting th
e aircraft costs go up to its competitors' range. It found in the "Brazili
an option" industrial factors that would turn its product even more competi
tive. It even offered the aircraft operator and the Brazilian industries a
n option that would easily meet the operating requirements without financia
l risks thereby adding an enormous commercial advantage as well.
Within this reality, that, of course, its strategists identified a long tim
e ago, the competing companies were left with the fact that they had to see
k other alternatives to turn the odds in their favor. Favored by the excel
lent relationship between Brazil and France, which resulted in the recent s
ignature of contracts to assembling Eurocopter's Super Puma helicopters in
Brazil for the three Brazilian Armed Forces, and to developing a new submar
ine family for the Brazilian Navy with the help of the French, Dassault ban
ked on the strategic political factor, which resulted in Presidents Sarkozy
and Lula joint statement that they would start negotiating the French offe
r. However, the aircraft acquisition and operating costs were an obstacle.
The Brazilian President himself let transpire this. And he put pressure
for lower prices. Following, Dassault stated that it would reduce the pric
e to levels similar to those it offers to the Arm=E9e de l'Air, the French
air force. For the time being it has not disclosed the prices it is asking
. Even so the prices are high, and are for First World nations. To buy th
e Rafale, FAB needs to be assured that its operating budget over the next t
hirty years would be increased and maintained, without cuts and contingenci
es, and also allowing for future investments in other technologies that mos
t certainly will appear in the air defense scenario. Buying the fighter wi
thout this money injection could create a huge problem for Brazil. Maybe t
his is the reason why the Brazilian President is putting all this pressure
for reduced prices if the aircraft is really interested in winning the bid.
Regarding Boeing, no matter how much the company provided details of its of
fer, generous and realistic, if we take into account the restrictions impos
ed by the law of a nation that is globally involved and faces constant thre
ats to its security, the Brazilian government repeated statements, particul
arly those made by Nelson Jobim, the Brazilian Ministry of Defense, have al
ways raised the possibility of restrictions to technology transfer for sens
itive components. In our point of view, the American offer ' besides bei
ng extremely coherent ' is honest and pragmatic, thus Bob Gower's "necess
ary transfer". The Super Hornet is the aircraft with intermediary price, a
nd ever before so many weapons and next-generation sensors were offered in
one single package to a Latin American country. Like its competitors, the
aircraft would come with medium- and short-range air-air missiles, anti-rad
iation, air-ground, extremely updated synthetic aperture radar, and all the
required self-defense paraphernalia that such a modern aircraft needs. Fo
r the 90's F-X program, most of these weapons and sensors could not be expo
rted, which immensely hindered the American companies' competitiveness. Ha
ving approved this vast range of weapons clearly demonstrates the American
Government commitment to Brazil's procurement and the region.
In any moment Boeing announced something it could not deliver. Its offer p
rovides for assembling and updating the aircraft in Brazil if that is whish
ed. It also provides for ' like the other competitors ' integrating th
e weapons FAB chooses. It offers aircraft external technologies that would
benefit the Brazilian industry if it chooses to use them. However, like t
he Rafale, the Super Hornet is not a project that is developed and started
here.
Now it's time for FAB!
President Lula announcement on September 7 significantly benefited the F-X2
Program as it started a new negotiation round that by one side, increased
the advantages offered to Brazil, and by the other side, reduced the prices
the competitors are asking for. It was a presidential win-win. Opening t
he discussions in the public opinion sphere made many of the idiosyncrasies
that are behind each offer surface enabling a clearer analysis of the even
ts. In the meantime Brazil was chosen to host the 2016 Olympic Games, whic
h with the 2014 FIFA Soccer Cup will require enormous investment from Brazi
l. All of a sudden, the cost factor has become even more essential togethe
r with technology transfer and the growth of the Brazilian airspace industr
y.
The Government demanded conditions and democratized the discussion. The Br
azilian industry mobilized and let transpire its positions.
Now, we are waiting for the most important: the technical report from FAB,
the principal party interested in the program that will be discussed and de
bated for the next thirty years!
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: [Aviatia.ro] Re: 1 Aprilie |
--- In aviatia@yahoogroups.com, Marin Adrian Simion <masim_fly@...> wrote:
>
> S-a anuntat azi pe Realitatea la ora 14 pm ca hotararea de a achizitiona
F16 second pentru aviatia militara romana s-a amanat=C2-...
>
Nu e gluma. Prin Hotarare de Guvern (HCM) se reinfiinteaza fabrica IAR-NG c
u un singur produs: 113 avioane de lupta IAR-1800 NoG (Noua Generatie). Le
tinem pumnii Baietilor, oricare ar fi ei.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Official Aviation-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the Aviation-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The
complete Aviation-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Aviation-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
[ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as
Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ]
This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Aviation-List.htm
************************************************************
******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS *******
************************************************************
PLEASE READ. This document contains Aviation-List policies and information
for new and old subscribers. Understanding the Aviation-List policies will
minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the Aviation-List
running smoothly for all of us.
******************************************
*** Quick Start Guide to List Features ***
******************************************
There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each
one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator
you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this
List. The List Navigator can be found at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Aviation-List
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Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and
select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You
may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of
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The Subscribe/Unsubscribe web page is:
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Note that you will receive TWO conformation emails regarding your subsciption
process. The first verifies that your subscription/unsubsciption request
was received, and the second confirms that the process has been completed.
You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request.
The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post
until you receive the second conformation email message.
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*** How to Post a Message ***
*****************************
Send an email message to:
aviation-list@matronics.com
Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed
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*** SPAM Fighter - You Must be Subscribed to Post ***
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When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message
is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the
email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor.
If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it
is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that
gets posted to the Lists.
Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important
with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook
or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be
functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM
test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List:
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Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure
your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to
the List.
**************************************
*** Enclosure Support on the Lists ***
**************************************
Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets
is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these
are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the
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These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics
Lists:
1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists.
2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists.
3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site.
4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives.
5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature.
6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed:
bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls
All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to
sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from
a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk.
7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting
to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down
the process of posting the message !!
Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules
could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists.
1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files
you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there
are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post
30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these
folks and the rest of us, for that matter.
2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000
pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just
unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture
down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the
file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less.
Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows
you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically
scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it!
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx
Look for the link "Image Resizer"
3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not
post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother.
And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even
questionable. !!
4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members
subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting
to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and
BE COURTEOUS!
Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where
you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server
for long time viewing and availability.
*******************
*** Digest Mode ***
*******************
Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started.
This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended
to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:"
and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting
of a line of underscores.
Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be
combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list.
To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form
described above, and just select the Digest version of the List.
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Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions
of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable.
Now some caveats:
* Messages sent to "aviation-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard
email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the
digest List.
* If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you
will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of
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* If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the
normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change
the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please
*do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*.
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*** List Digest Browser ***
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An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text
or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to
the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found
at the following location:
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*** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag ***
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At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very
small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive
it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the
message:
do not archive
Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List
email distribution as normal.
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***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes *****
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Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced
email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly
removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving
messages from the Aviation-List, go to the following Web page, and look
for your email address and a possible reason for your removal.
The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that
automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that
caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox
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If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel
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*** List Member Information ***
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If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and
paper mail address in the following format:
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Tower, CA 91234-1234
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Please forward this information to the following email address:
requests@matronics.com
I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when
there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT
be used for any other commercial purpose.
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*** Realtime Web Email List Browsing ***
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Recent messages posted to the Aviation-List are also made available on
the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are
available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject,
Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are
updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message
or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon).
You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List
Browser Interface in view-mode.
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aviation-list
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*** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface ***
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A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all Aviation-List content.
content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email
distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the
List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the
respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to
the web Forums.
You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login.
If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you
will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few
minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the
main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also
enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to
Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the
Email Distribution of the List, however.
The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL:
http://forums.matronics.com
*********************************
*** Matronics Email List Wiki ***
*********************************
In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed
information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at:
http://wiki.matronics.com
The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information
for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page
where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki
permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately.
While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be
comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any
images and email it to:
wiki-support@matronics.com
One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct
a Wiki page for you.
Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the
Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that
post and convert it into a Wiki page.
*********************
*** List Archives ***
*********************
A file containing of all of the previous postings to the Aviation-List is
available on line. The archive file information is available via the
Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below:
* Aviation-List.FAQ
- Latest version of the Aviation-List Frequently Asked Question
page (this document).
* Aviation-Archive.digest.complete
- Complete file with most of the email header info removed and
page breaks inserted between messages.
* Aviation-Archive.digest.vol-??
- Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that
can more easily handled.
* Aviation-Archive.digest.complete.zip
- Same as the Aviation-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
* Aviation-Archive.digest.complete.Z
- Same as the Aviation-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in
UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
Download Via FTP
----------------
The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com
in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in
a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.)
ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives
Download Via Web
----------------
The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found
toward the bottom of the following web page:
http://www.matronics.com/archives
******************************************
*** Complete List Web Archive Browsing ***
******************************************
All messages posted to the Aviation-List are also available using the
Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages
in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed.
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Aviation
*****************************************
**** High-Speed Archive Search Engine ***
*****************************************
You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine
to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the
List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently
available List archives.
http://www.matronics.com/search
****************************
*** File and Photo Share ***
****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures
and other data with members of the List without having to forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with each submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned
for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and
photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to
process them every few days.
Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new
Share is available and what the direct URL to it is.
For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main
Index Page:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
**************************
*** List Archive CDROM ***
**************************
A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains
all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives
for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search
engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it
and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make
great gifts!
http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM
**********************************
*** List Support Contributions ***
**********************************
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You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of
annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages
associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November
I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month,
I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they
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If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to
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Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Aviation-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Aviation-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Aviation-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Aviation-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Aviation-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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| Subject: | Official Aviation-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the Aviation-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
Aviation-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Aviation-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Aviation-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Aviation-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Aviation-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Aviation-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Aviation-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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