---------------------------------------------------------- Aviation-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 04/01/13: 4 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 11:27 AM - =?iso-8859-1?B?UmU6IFLEg3NwdW5zOiBSw4TGknNwdW5zOiBSw4TG?= =?iso-8859-1?B?knNwdW5zOiBSw4TGknNwdW5zOiBbQXZpYXRpYS5y?= =?iso-8859-1?B?b10gbyBzaXR1YXRpZSBhbGFybWFudGEuLi4gc2kg?= =?iso-8859-1?B?dGF4YXJlYSBwYXNpb25hdGlsb3I=? (Alec S) 2. 12:23 PM - =?iso-8859-1?B?UmU6IFLDhMaSc3B1bnM6IFLDhMaSc3B1bnM6IFLD?= =?iso-8859-1?B?hMaSc3B1bnM6IFtBdmlhdGlhLnJvXSBvIHNpdHVh?= =?iso-8859-1?B?dGllIGFsYXJtYW50YS4uLiBzaSB0YXhhcmVhIHBh?= =?iso-8859-1?B?c2lvbmF0aWxvcg==? (Alec S) 3. 11:00 PM - Official Aviation-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle) 4. 11:04 PM - Official Aviation-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 11:27:13 AM PST US From: "Alec S" Subject: Aviation-List: =?iso-8859-1?B?UmU6IFLEg3NwdW5zOiBSw4TGknNwdW5zOiBSw4TG?= =?iso-8859-1?B?knNwdW5zOiBSw4TGknNwdW5zOiBbQXZpYXRpYS5y?= =?iso-8859-1?B?b10gbyBzaXR1YXRpZSBhbGFybWFudGEuLi4gc2kg?= =?iso-8859-1?B?dGF4YXJlYSBwYXNpb25hdGlsb3I=? Cu siguranta nu esti singurul. Si nu e vorba numai de proprietari de ULM in matriculate YR, ci si de piloti. AS --- In aviatia@yahoogroups.com, "Calin Manea" wrote: > > Super. Cred ca din cei care au postat pe acest subiect si s-au uitat pest e gard, sunt singurul care am av ultralight inmatriculat in ro, deci ma in cadrez :) > Eu va multumesc tuturor pentru mesaje. Am aflat si invatat multe. > Succes, > Calin > > > --- In aviatia@yahoogroups.com, Dragos Stoicescu wrote: > > > > Salut colegilor! Salut dle Sturza! > > Hopaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bravo dle Sturza! Ati facut lumina! > > Acest domn Stoica Nicolae este directorul CIAS de sub MT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!! > > =C2-Nu cumva este in incompatibilitate? > > Ia uite cum se leaga firele!!!!!!!!!=C2- > > Sigur are in spate subalterni care au facut petitia!!! > > Prea seamana formularea petitiei aar catre MT cu formularea rapoartelor de incidente/accidente publicate pe site-ul lor, asa cum am sesizat de la prima citire. > > Ia uitati colegilor cine ne vrea ''binele'' si nu mai poate de ''grija' ' noastra. > > Ia uitatit cine organiza meetinguri cu primariile pt care sigur lua ban i( ca doar nu facea munca patriotica asa cum au facut participantii)!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > Trebuie anuntat dl. Ministru ca sa stie ce personal are in subordine, d l Premier,=C2-presa Tv=C2-si, de ce nu, DNA-ul. > > Este vorba de un functionar public al statului care nu are ce cauta in asa ceva!!!!! > > =C2- > > Scrisoraea am trimis-o dlui Ministru-personal, da' acu' dupa cele ce am aflat mai stiu eu pe unde=C2-o fi...... > > =C2- > > Referitor la ce ne trebuie noua si ce nu, fara sa jignesc pe nimeni din colegii de forum in special pe dl Ivascu, problema in discutie priveste st rict pe PROPRIETARII DE AERONAVE ULM IDENTIFICATE IN ROMANIA. > > Numai noi avem dreptul si calitatea sa hotaram pe "mana cui mergem" > > Restul colegilor, repet: fara suparae, nu pot cunoaste ce este sau nu b ine pt noi din afara cercului. > > =C2- > > De asemenea am vazut in timp=C2-tot felul de=C2-notiuni si sugestii folosite=C2-de cei=C2-din afara acestui cerc de genul: autorizari, cer tificari, asigurari,=C2-plan de zbor in G!!! si altele care-mi scapa acum . Ele nu se regasesc in legislatia aplicabila asa ca ar fi bine ca discutii le sa se poarte pe baza termenilor legiferati intern si international=C2- pt ca altfel=C2-pot=C2-sa apara=C2-cofuzii. > > =C2- > > Vad tot felul de comparatii facute cu tarile din UE ca acolo-i asa ca a colo-i pe dincolo. Cunoscand bine legislatiile lor repet cu tarie : nu se p ot compara nici pe departe dpdv al libertatilor si avantajelor=C2-cu legi slatia noastra aplicabila. > > =C2- > > Si apoi s-o mai lasam dracului de comparatie cu altii ca destul am impo rtat prin UE, droguri, prostitutie, crime..... Oare noi, cu traditia noastr a in aviatie, trebuie sa stam plecati in fata tuturor chiar si a celor care zburau cu cercul cand inaintasii nostrii zburau cu avion turboreactor????! !!!!!! > > Sa cinstim AR care este instituatia noastra nationala=C2-cu traditie si isorie in aviatie! > > =C2- > > Scuze! Am aceasta rabufnire pt ca in industrie suntem sufocati de tot f elul de inginerasi din UE de laptop bine imbracati=C2- fizic dar dezbraca ti ......la mansarda care stramba din nas la tot ce-i ROMANESC. > > =C2- > > Si acum revenind la oile noastre: Fratilor din cerc, nu va este bine ac um? Nu va convine legislatia aplicabila? Va dau banii afara din casa?=C2- =C2- > > Tot vorbim de asociatii peste asociatii. Ele exista.=C2-Toate trebuie sa apere=C2- drepturile si libertatile noastre noastre legale, obtinute cu greu, nu sa se transforme in entitati de autorizari, licentieri sau alte alea....ca sa umple buzanarelor unor smecheri pe carca noastra! > > =C2- > > Principiul nostru: ZBOR LIBER PRIN ASUMAREA RESPONSABILITATII=C2-IN L IMITELE=C2-LEGII. > > =C2- > > Repet a "n+1" oara: sa facem front comun sa tinem cu dintii si sa respe ctam ce avem ca altfel......vom goli buzunarele > > =C2-Cine nu crede sa intrebe un PROPRIETAR de SEP si va vedea.....=C2 - > > P > > ersonal nu vreau sa umplu buzunarele unuia care ar ar prelua atributiil e AR pe taxe de cca 20x mai mari!!! > > Sau poate vrea sa le faca gratis si sa ne mai dea si cca 10E de la el c a prea ne vrea binele!!!!! > > =C2- > > SKC, sper sa nu=C2-BCMG OVC, Dragos > > =C2- > > =C2- > > > > > > ________________________________ > > De la: Alec S > > C=C4=83tre: aviatia@yahoogroups.com > > Trimis: Luni, 1 Aprilie 2013 0:33:06 > > Subiect: Re: R=C3=84=C6'spuns: R=C3=84=C6'spuns: R=C3=84=C6'spuns: [Avi atia.ro] o situatie alarmanta... si taxarea pasionatilor > > > > > > =C2- > > > > Buna seara, > > > > De fapt aici se discuta simultan doua chestiuni separate: > > > > 1) daca gestionarea activitatii ULM (si nu numai) sa fie facuta de o or ganizatie reprezentativa privata a utilizatorilor si proprietarilor acestor a sau de o institutie de stat, asa cum este acum (AR)? Parerea mea personal a este ca aici este de discutat cu calm si mai putin patos, de adus argumen te pro si contra (exita destule de ambele parti), de cantarit acestea si in final de luat o decizie si de stabilit o directie de actiune pe cat posibi l unitara, daca este cazul. Sugestia mea (mai ales dupa ce veti citi punctu l 2) este sa lasam momentan aceasta discutie deoparte, va fi in mod clar in fluentata in mod subiectiv de demersul momentan al ARA. > > > > 2) daca o organizatie precum ARA este indreptatita sa solicite ceea ce a trimis la MT? Din punctul meu de vedere este complet nejustificata cerere a lor, plina de tupeu si implicit lipsita de bun-simt, si banuiesc ca major itatea suntem de acord cu acest punct de vedere. Reteta este simpla: se adu na 2-3 "baieti destepti"=C2-(si fete din cate se vede)=C2-, infiinteaza o societate/organizatie cu un nume cat mai pompos care sa dea impresia de autoritate, super-calificare si/sau larga reprezentare, gen "agentie", "aso ciatie", "centrul" plus atributul "roman"/"national" chiar daca nu au de-a face nimic cu respectivele calificative, fac putin lobby la autoritati ca s a le dea o sinecura - asta in cazul in care aceasta nu este deja asigurata de unul dintre ei, si apoi nu au altceva de facut decat sa instituie o taxa gen Robin Hood. Am sa va rog sa observati ca o asemenea organizatie nu are nimic de-a face cu cea mentionata ca si statut la punctul 1. > > > > > > Si acum la concret, pentru ca dl.Stoicescu era foarte curios si banuies c ca nu numai, cine este ARA - din informatiile publice disponibile: > > > > - o gasiti aici=C2-Asociatia Aeronautica Romana=C2-si are pretentii de genul "asigurarea unui climat optim, organizatoric =C3=85=C5=B8i financ iar pentru desf=C3=84=C6'=C3=85=C5=B8urarea, sus=C3=85=C2=A3inerea =C3=85 =C5=B8i=C2-promovarea tuturor activit=C3=84=C6'=C3=85=C2=A3ilor aeriene =C3=85=C5=B8i nautice =C3=AEn toate variantele lor, at=C3=A2t la nivel=C2 -na=C3=85=C2=A3ional, c=C3=A2t =C3=85=C5=B8i interna=C3=85=C2=A3ional.". Va rog sa remarcati ca nu le scapa nimic, repectiv pe ULM-isti ii (re)organ izeaza=C2-pe plan national=C2-cred in max.2 zile (scuze, nu m-am putut abtine...) > > > > - "marea" asociatie nationala are ...3 membri: > > pre=C3=85=C5=B8edinte " DUMITRACHE-CRIVEANU=C2-DIANA-VERONICA, =C2- > > vicepre=C3=85=C5=B8edinte " STOICA=C2-NICOLAE-OCTAVIAN,=C2- > > secretar " FR=C3=84=9ATIC=C3=84=9A=C2-ANTON-TIBERIU > > Doamna Diana este o tipa care se ocupa de organizarea Aeronautic Show ( btw, pana acum ULM-stii erau buni la spectacole, acu' vad c-au devenit cam periculosi, mai ales in caz de "migratie" precum povestesc ei frumos in mem oriul inaintat la MT), de domnul Fratica nu stiu nimic, l-am vazut asta-var a la Surduc si parea un tip de treaba, dar cred ca dumnealui se ocupa mai m ult de "Agentia de Parasutism Aerodinamic" (sa mai spui ca nu sunt inventiv i la denumiri), dar surpriza (in sensul ca a avut neglijenta sa se treaca i n acte) este domnul STOICA NICOLAE-OCTAVIAN, care intr-adevar are legaturi (chiar stranse) cu aviatia, daca nu o fi vreo coincidenta. Are motoscuter P iaggio si casa la Banesti... :) > > Cateva cuvinte cheie si cateva link-uri daca doriti sa va edificati - A ir Management Intl, BIT Air Consulting, Jetran Air, plus: > > > Centrul de Investigatii si Analiza pentru Siguranta Aviatiei Civile - CIAS, director general (wooow!!!) > > http://www.cias.gov.ro/images/declaratii-avere/nicolae%20stoica%20da.pd f > > > consilier judetean Ilfov > > http://www.cjilfov.ro/site/uploads/declaratii_fp_2010/stoican.pdf > > > inspector principal Ministerul Transporturilor > > http://www.mt.ro/declaratii_de_avere/5pagini/lichidare_2012/stoica%20ni colae%20octavian419.pdf > > > si asa, repede,=C2-un articolas dragut de incheiere > > http://doreltrans.wordpress.com/muncile-lui-dorel-2/radu-cel-frumos-din -aviatie/ > > > > Pana la urma eu ce nu inteleg, a) de ce domnul SNO e numai vicepresedin te la ARA si b) de ce nu a semnat memoriul respectiv, ca doar era un lucru de lauda, nu o rusine, nu!?=C2- > > > > Cele bune, > > Alec Sturza > > > > > > PS > > D-le Stoicescu, sper sa aveti simtul umorului: la cine ati trimis scris oarea respectiva? :D > > > > --- In aviatia@yahoogroups.com, Dragos Stoicescu wrot e:>> Nu vine muntele la Maomed ci invers.> Au avut ei (tare sunt curios cin e or fi ) oare=C3=82=C2-bunul simt sa ne intrebe inainte de a face pasul? Nuuuuuu!> Si atunci pt ce sa-i contactam?! Ca sa ce?> Trebuie tratati ca a tare si sa nu mai rspunda nimeni la nici un meeting organizat de ei.> Daca voiau sa fie cunoscuti isi publicaua pe site si membrii fondatori asa cum f ac toti. Nu de alta dar sa stim cu cine vorbim.> =C3=82=C2-> Referitor la terenuri de zbor AR nu are nici o treaba aici. Singura institutie a statul ui pe domeniu este RAACR.> Dar pentru aviatia generala, practicata si=C3=82 =C2-de noi, asa cum este definita de Lg 377 nu este nevoie de nici o cert ificare=C3=82=C2-, autorizare si alte chestii de astea de=C3=82=C2-dat bani "expertilor". Este suficient 912 si 781 coroborat cu 1172. In opinia m ea, daca as fi proprietar de teren de zbor, nu as aplica 781 dar as aplica numai 912 initial.> =C3=82=C2-> SKC, > > Dragos> =C3=82=C2-> > > ________________________________> De la: En dre Lucian MOLNAR office@> C=C3=84=C6'tre: "aviatia@yahoogroups.com" aviati a@yahoogroups.com > Trimis: Duminic=C3=84=C6', 31 Martie 2013 15:39:21> Sub iect: Re: R=C3=84=C6'spuns: R=C3=84=C6'spuns: [Aviatia.ro] o situatie alarm anta... si taxarea pasionatilor> > > =C3=82=C2- > > Salutari tuturor,> > Acesta este mailul Asociatiei Aeronautice Romane=C3=82=C2-mailto:office@ =C3=82=C2-pe care l-am gasit =C3=82=C2-pe pagina=C3=82=C2-http://www. aeronauticshow.ro/organizator/> Putem sa ii contactam pentru a-i "cunoaste" si a-i intreba de ce isi manifesta acest interes...> > > Endre Lucian MOLN AR> Ion Luca Caragiale 39, cod 220019> Drobeta Turnu Severin, Mehedinti> RO MANIA> E-mail: office@> 0040721323749> 0040741559759> Fix Aerodrom 00403729 34324> > Web: http://www.aeroclubuldrobeta.ro/> > Drobeta Aerodrome - > pic ture preview at https://picasaweb.google.com/115037730882600424962/DrobetaS Airfield2012#> > Pista I: 740x68 m - inierbata> Orientarea > > pistei : 10-28> Pista II : 1518x65 m> Orientarea pistei : 09-27> Coord onate geografice: N44 34 52.6 E22 51 15.7> Elevatie : 358 m> Frecventa radi o : 123.450 MHz> > Aerodromes and airports in Romania: http://maps.google.c om/maps/ms?msid=215004093629214258415.000492a72a8dcae3c003f&msa=0&ll= 44.629573,22.859802&spn=1.282245,2.90863> > > Airshows I organized yet> 2 012> http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.385924248140047.89671.24339 2795726527&type=1> > http://romanian-spotters.forumer.ro/t6583-drobeta-fl y-in-2012-fifth-edition#124137> 2011> http://romanian-spotters.forumer.ro/t 5417-drobeta-fly-in-2011> 2010> http://romanian-spotters.forumer.ro/t4482-a -fost-drobeta-fly-in-2010-si-cupa-dunarii-competitii-cu-aeronave-ulm> 2009> http://romanian-spotters.forumer.ro/t1992-meeting-aviatic-la-drobeta-turnu -severin-pe-28-iunie-2009> On 22.03.2013, at 15:46, Dragos Stoicescu dragos toicescu@ wrote:> =C3=82=C2- > >sunt la subsol> >> > > >> > > >________________________________> > De la: Gica Pascariu gica_pascari u@> >C=C3=84=C6'tre: "aviatia@yahoogroups.com" aviatia@yahoogroups.com > >T rimis: Vineri, 22 Martie 2013 15:25:43> >Subiect: Re: R=C3=84=C6'spuns: [Av iatia.ro] o situatie alarmanta... si taxarea pasionatilor> > > >=C3=82=C2 - > >Interesanta cladire, =C3=82=C2-hangarele sunt in spate?> >> >> >Gi ca PASCARIU=C3=82=C2-> >Director General> >> >> >RO-600001 BACAU> >FLIGHT DESIGN ROMANIA> >Mobile;+40 744 229598> >Email:office@=C3=82=C2-=C3=82 =C2- =C3=82=C2- =C3=82=C2- =C3=82=C2- =C3=82=C2-> >Web: http://ww w.flightdesign.ro/_________________________________________________________ __ The information in this e-mail is confidential and is intended solely fo r the addressee(s). Access to this email by anyone else is unauthorized. If you are not an intended recipient, please notify the sender of this email immediately. You may not print, save or otherwise store the e-mail or any o f the contents thereof in electronic or physical form, nor copy, use or > > disseminate the information contained in the email.> >On 22.03.2013, a t 14:35, Dragos Stoicescu dragostoicescu@ wrote:> >=C3=82=C2- > >>Asta-i sediul social declarat al aar din timisoara. Cititi in dreapta sus ces te a colo!!!> >>> >> > >>> >>________________________________> >> De la: Luciano Mihaita luciano.mihaita@> >>C=C3=84=C6'tre: aviatia@yahoogroups.com > >>Tr imis: Joi, 21 Martie 2013 16:29:28> >>Subiect: [Aviatia.ro] o situatie alar manta... si taxarea pasionatilor> >> > >>=C3=82=C2- > >>De asta mi-era te ama, ca cineva la un moment dat, se va gandi ca propietarii de aeronave spo rtive sunt de fapt niste propietari de "lux" si ca trebuie taxati precum pr opietarii de yahturi... ca deh, daca ai avion inseamna ca esti bogat deci i ti permiti... nu conteaza ca unii au facut mari eforturi financiare (si nu doar financiare) sa-si intretina pasiunea, si-au vandut masina, garsoniera, au divortat etc... pe strazile din tara circula masini cu mult mai scumpe decat un ULM > > dar unii considera ca nu sunt un lux... Mai nou, daca nu stiati, AACR a impus o taxa anuala de 500 euro pentru prelugirea licentei la planoare.. . din cate am inteles, aceasta taxa se va impune si Aeroclubului Romaniei c are e oarecum victima colaterala... acum 5-6 ani cand au fost inmatriculate primele planoare private din romania nimeni nu se gandea la o asa taxa, da r cum in ultimii ani tot mai multi pasionati au facut eforturi si si-au cum parat un planor SH (multe in copropietate> fiindca nu aveau bani destui), ce s-au gandit unii, hai sa-i taxam p-astia ca prea se inmultesc deci e o s ursa sigura de bani... pentru multi 500 euro anual e totusi o suma, chiar s i pentru AR care plateste de la buget, ar fi putut cheltui pe altceva zeci de mii de euro cat va avea de platit anual pentru toate planoarele AR... S i va mai mirati ca multi prefera sa-si inmatriculeze aeronava in Ungaria? Stiti ce s-a intamplatj dupa ce guvernul a impus acele taxe aberante > > pentru ambarcatiuni? Toti le-au radiat din romania si le-au inmatricul at in Bulgaria... rezultatul? datorita lacomiei statul roman incaseaza 0 eu ro pentru ambarcatiunile romanilor iar statul bulgar incaseaza un ban in pl us... Repet, sa nu va mirati daca pe viitor veti vedea pe cerul patriei ma i multe aeronave cu indicativul HA decat cu YR On 21.03.2013 09:19, Gica P ascariu wrote: > >>=C3=82=C2- > >>>Eu zic sa =C3=82=C2-le dam posibilit atea acestor domni de la ARA sa si exprime punctul lor de vedere si catre n oi, CEi care zburam,( eventualii cotizanti) pentru ca mi Se pare normal sa aiba drept la replica si eventual sa ne convinga de ce sau Cu ce cred dansi i ca sunt mai capabili decat AR in a reglementa( imbunatati) situatia actua la existenta. > >>>Sa incerce sa ne explice, pe intelesul nostru, ce i =C3 =82=C2- Determina sa faca acest pas in a Se , sacrifica, pentru aviatia m ica, excluzand interesele financiare. > >>>> >>> > >>>=C3=82=C2-In cazul in care nu o fac si vor > > continua Cu demersuri catre =C3=82=C2-MT si AAR popun ca cineva sa i nceapa cu a strange semnaturi pentru a combate aceasta initiativa. > >>>> > >> > >>>Putem discuta infocat pe acest forum insa nu cred ca ajuta Cu nimic situatiei actuale, simplele noastre discutii =C3=82=C2- Si nu Se vor lua in considerare nicaieri. > >>>> >>> > >>>Cei care stiu cum Se fac aceste l ucruri, sa o faca iAr daca este cineva care stie stadiul actual al demersul ui ARA, sa ne informeze si pe noi.=C3=82=C2- > >>>> >>> > >>>Astept sfatu ri de la cei ce stiu Mai bine. > >>>> >>> > >>>Gica PASCARIU=C3=82=C2- > >>>Director General > >>>> >>> > >>>RO-600001 BACAU > >>>FLIGHT DESIGN ROMA NIA > >>>Mobile;+40 744 229598 > >>>Email:office@=C3=82=C2-=C3=82=C2- =C3=82=C2- =C3=82=C2- =C3=82=C2- =C3=82=C2- > >>>Web: http://www.fl ightdesign.ro/> >>>> > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:23:19 PM PST US From: "Alec S" Subject: Aviation-List: =?iso-8859-1?B?UmU6IFLDhMaSc3B1bnM6IFLDhMaSc3B1bnM6IFLD?= =?iso-8859-1?B?hMaSc3B1bnM6IFtBdmlhdGlhLnJvXSBvIHNpdHVh?= =?iso-8859-1?B?dGllIGFsYXJtYW50YS4uLiBzaSB0YXhhcmVhIHBh?= =?iso-8859-1?B?c2lvbmF0aWxvcg==? Salut Matteo, numele meu este Alec. Sper ca vom avea ocazia sa ne intalnim :) "Taria oamenilor astia" este ceva relativ, dar ei sunt inventivi si de acti une si demersul lor in sine chiar daca este discutabil din punctul unora de vedere (si al meu de exemplu) nu cred ca este ilegal. DAR CEL MAI IMPORTAN T ESTE CAT DE "PUTERNICI" SUNTEM NOI! Daca ei au dreptul sa ceara, NOI, cei afectati, avem puterea sa le opunem ceva la concret daca nu ne convine ce se intampla, sa influentam in vreun fel astfel de decizii? Cele bune, AS --- In aviatia@yahoogroups.com, Daniel MATEI wrote: > > D-le Alec Sturza, > > foarte interesante informatiile dvs! Nu va cunosc inca dar mi-ar face pla cere sa am ocazia sa va strang mana. Si mi-e rusine sa spun ca nu mi-a dat prin cap sa studiez registrul online. Trimisesem vorba la niste colegi sa i a un extras din registrul aflat la Judecatoria Timisoara. Mi-ati luat-o ina inte, pe un drum mult mai rapid, fapt pt care va felicit. In afara de numel e acelea, am informatii de inca un nume "greu" care, insa, daca nu se regas este in acte, nu este ok sa-l pronunt in public. > > Este interesant de observat ca acea asociatie, continand in denumire cuva ntul "Romana", s-a infiintat cu incalcarea prevederilor art. 7 pct (3) indi ce 2 din OG 26/2000 (asa cum se afla in vigoare la data constituirii) deci este ilegal constituita. Saaaaaau: poate au avut ei acordul Secretariatului General al Guvernului.... Daca este asa, atunci cat de tari sa fie oamenii astia?=C2- > > Cu stima, > Matteo > > > ________________________________ > From: Alec S > To: aviatia@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, April 1, 2013 12:33 AM > Subject: Re: R=C3=84=C6'spuns: R=C3=84=C6'spuns: R=C3=84=C6'spuns: [Aviat ia.ro] o situatie alarmanta... si taxarea pasionatilor > > > =C2- > Buna seara, > > De fapt aici se discuta simultan doua chestiuni separate: > > 1) daca gestionarea activitatii ULM (si nu numai) sa fie facuta de o orga nizatie reprezentativa privata a utilizatorilor si proprietarilor acestora sau de o institutie de stat, asa cum este acum (AR)? Parerea mea personala este ca aici este de discutat cu calm si mai putin patos, de adus argumente pro si contra (exita destule de ambele parti), de cantarit acestea si in f inal de luat o decizie si de stabilit o directie de actiune pe cat posibil unitara, daca este cazul. Sugestia mea (mai ales dupa ce veti citi punctul 2) este sa lasam momentan aceasta discutie deoparte, va fi in mod clar infl uentata in mod subiectiv de demersul momentan al ARA. > > 2) daca o organizatie precum ARA este indreptatita sa solicite ceea ce a trimis la MT? Din punctul meu de vedere este complet nejustificata cererea lor, plina de tupeu si implicit lipsita de bun-simt, si banuiesc ca majorit atea suntem de acord cu acest punct de vedere. Reteta este simpla: se aduna 2-3 "baieti destepti"=C2-(si fete din cate se vede)=C2-, infiinteaza o societate/organizatie cu un nume cat mai pompos care sa dea impresia de au toritate, super-calificare si/sau larga reprezentare, gen "agentie", "asoci atie", "centrul" plus atributul "roman"/"national" chiar daca nu au de-a fa ce nimic cu respectivele calificative, fac putin lobby la autoritati ca sa le dea o sinecura - asta in cazul in care aceasta nu este deja asigurata de unul dintre ei, si apoi nu au altceva de facut decat sa instituie o taxa g en Robin Hood. Am sa va rog sa observati ca o asemenea organizatie nu are n imic de-a face cu cea mentionata ca si statut la punctul 1. > > > Si acum la concret, pentru ca dl.Stoicescu era foarte curios si banuiesc ca nu numai, cine este ARA - din informatiile publice disponibile: > > - o gasiti aici=C2-Asociatia Aeronautica Romana=C2-si are pretentii d e genul "asigurarea unui climat optim, organizatoric =C3=85=C5=B8i financia r pentru desf=C3=84=C6'=C3=85=C5=B8urarea, sus=C3=85=C2=A3inerea =C3=85=C5 =B8i=C2-promovarea tuturor activit=C3=84=C6'=C3=85=C2=A3ilor aeriene =C3 =85=C5=B8i nautice =C3=AEn toate variantele lor, at=C3=A2t la nivel=C2-na =C3=85=C2=A3ional, c=C3=A2t =C3=85=C5=B8i interna=C3=85=C2=A3ional.". Va ro g sa remarcati ca nu le scapa nimic, repectiv pe ULM-isti ii (re)organizeaz a=C2-pe plan national=C2-cred in max.2 zile (scuze, nu m-am putut abtin e...) > > - "marea" asociatie nationala are ...3 membri: > pre=C3=85=C5=B8edinte " DUMITRACHE-CRIVEANU=C2-DIANA-VERONICA,=C2 - > vicepre=C3=85=C5=B8edinte " STOICA=C2-NICOLAE-OCTAVIAN,=C2- > secretar " FR=C3=84=9ATIC=C3=84=9A=C2-ANTON-TIBERIU > Doamna Diana este o tipa care se ocupa de organizarea Aeronautic Show (bt w, pana acum ULM-stii erau buni la spectacole, acu' vad c-au devenit cam pe riculosi, mai ales in caz de "migratie" precum povestesc ei frumos in memor iul inaintat la MT), de domnul Fratica nu stiu nimic, l-am vazut asta-vara la Surduc si parea un tip de treaba, dar cred ca dumnealui se ocupa mai mul t de "Agentia de Parasutism Aerodinamic" (sa mai spui ca nu sunt inventivi la denumiri), dar surpriza (in sensul ca a avut neglijenta sa se treaca in acte) este domnul STOICA NICOLAE-OCTAVIAN, care intr-adevar are legaturi (c hiar stranse) cu aviatia, daca nu o fi vreo coincidenta. Are motoscuter Pia ggio si casa la Banesti... :) > Cateva cuvinte cheie si cateva link-uri daca doriti sa va edificati - Air Management Intl, BIT Air Consulting, Jetran Air, plus: > > Centrul de Investigatii si Analiza pentru Siguranta Aviatiei Civile - C IAS, director general (wooow!!!) > http://www.cias.gov.ro/images/declaratii-avere/nicolae%20stoica%20da.pdf > > consilier judetean Ilfov > http://www.cjilfov.ro/site/uploads/declaratii_fp_2010/stoican.pdf > > inspector principal Ministerul Transporturilor > http://www.mt.ro/declaratii_de_avere/5pagini/lichidare_2012/stoica%20nico lae%20octavian419.pdf > > si asa, repede,=C2-un articolas dragut de incheiere > http://doreltrans.wordpress.com/muncile-lui-dorel-2/radu-cel-frumos-din-a viatie/ > > Pana la urma eu ce nu inteleg, a) de ce domnul SNO e numai vicepresedinte la ARA si b) de ce nu a semnat memoriul respectiv, ca doar era un lucru de lauda, nu o rusine, nu!?=C2- > > Cele bune, > Alec Sturza > > > PS > D-le Stoicescu, sper sa aveti simtul umorului: la cine ati trimis scrisoa rea respectiva? :D > > --- In aviatia@yahoogroups.com, Dragos Stoicescu wrote: > > > > Nu vine muntele la Maomed ci invers. > > Au avut ei (tare sunt curios cine or fi ) oare=C3=82=C2-bunul simt sa ne intrebe inainte de a face pasul? Nuuuuuu! > > Si atunci pt ce sa-i contactam?! Ca sa ce? > > Trebuie tratati ca atare si sa nu mai rspunda nimeni la nici un meeting organizat de ei. > > Daca voiau sa fie cunoscuti isi publicaua pe site si membrii fondatori asa cum fac toti. Nu de alta dar sa stim cu cine vorbim. > > =C3=82=C2- > > Referitor la terenuri de zbor AR nu are nici o treaba aici. Singura ins titutie a statului pe domeniu este RAACR. > > Dar pentru aviatia generala, practicata si=C3=82=C2-de noi, asa cum e ste definita de Lg 377 nu este nevoie de nici o certificare=C3=82=C2-, au torizare si alte chestii de astea de=C3=82=C2-dat bani "expertilor". Este suficient 912 si 781 coroborat cu 1172. In opinia mea, daca as fi propriet ar de teren de zbor, nu as aplica 781 dar as aplica numai 912 initial. > > =C3=82=C2- > > SKC, Dragos > > =C3=82=C2- > > > > > > ________________________________ > > De la: Endre Lucian MOLNAR office@ > > C=C3=84=C6'tre: "aviatia@yahoogroups.com" aviatia@yahoogroups.com > > Trimis: Duminic=C3=84=C6', 31 Martie 2013 15:39:21 > > Subiect: Re: R=C3=84=C6'spuns: R=C3=84=C6'spuns: [Aviatia.ro] o situati e alarmanta... si taxarea pasionatilor > > > > > > =C3=82=C2- > > > > Salutari tuturor, > > > > Acesta este mailul Asociatiei Aeronautice Romane=C3=82=C2-mailto:offi ce@=C3=82=C2-pe care l-am gasit =C3=82=C2-pe pagina=C3=82=C2-http://w ww.aeronauticshow.ro/organizator/ > > Putem sa ii contactam pentru a-i "cunoaste" si a-i intreba de ce isi ma nifesta acest interes... > > > > > > Endre Lucian MOLNAR > > Ion Luca Caragiale 39, cod 220019 > > Drobeta Turnu Severin, Mehedinti > > ROMANIA > > E-mail: office@ > > 0040721323749 > > 0040741559759 > > Fix Aerodrom 0040372934324 > > > > Web: http://www.aeroclubuldrobeta.ro/ > > > > Drobeta Aerodrome - > picture preview at https://picasaweb.google.com/1 15037730882600424962/DrobetaSAirfield2012# > > > > Pista I: 740x68 m - inierbata > > Orientarea pistei : 10-28 > > Pista II : 1518x65 m > > Orientarea pistei : 09-27 > > Coordonate geografice: N44 34 52.6 E22 51 15.7 > > Elevatie : 358 m > > Frecventa radio : 123.450 MHz > > > > Aerodromes and airports in Romania: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid =215004093629214258415.000492a72a8dcae3c003f&msa=0&ll=44.629573,22.85 9802&spn=1.282245,2.90863 > > > > > > Airshows I organized yet > > 2012 > > http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.385924248140047.89671.243392 795726527&type=1 > > > > http://romanian-spotters.forumer.ro/t6583-drobeta-fly-in-2012-fifth-edi tion#124137 > > 2011 > > http://romanian-spotters.forumer.ro/t5417-drobeta-fly-in-2011 > > 2010 > > http://romanian-spotters.forumer.ro/t4482-a-fost-drobeta-fly-in-2010-si -cupa-dunarii-competitii-cu-aeronave-ulm > > 2009 > > http://romanian-spotters.forumer.ro/t1992-meeting-aviatic-la-drobeta-tu rnu-severin-pe-28-iunie-2009 > > On 22.03.2013, at 15:46, Dragos Stoicescu dragostoicescu@ wrote: > > =C3=82=C2- > > >sunt la subsol > > > > > > > > > > > >________________________________ > > > De la: Gica Pascariu gica_pascariu@ > > >C=C3=84=C6'tre: "aviatia@yahoogroups.com" aviatia@yahoogroups.com > > >Trimis: Vineri, 22 Martie 2013 15:25:43 > > >Subiect: Re: R=C3=84=C6'spuns: [Aviatia.ro] o situatie alarmanta... si taxarea pasionatilor > > > > > >=C3=82=C2- > > >Interesanta cladire, =C3=82=C2-hangarele sunt in spate? > > > > > > > > >Gica PASCARIU=C3=82=C2- > > >Director General > > > > > > > > >RO-600001 BACAU > > >FLIGHT DESIGN ROMANIA > > >Mobile;+40 744 229598 > > >Email:office@=C3=82=C2-=C3=82=C2- =C3=82=C2- =C3=82=C2- =C3=82 =C2- =C3=82=C2- > > >Web: http://www.flightdesign.ro/______________________________________ _____________________ The information in this e-mail is confidential and is intended solely for the addressee(s). Access to this email by anyone else is unauthorized. If you are not an intended recipient, please notify the se nder of this email immediately. You may not print, save or otherwise store the e-mail or any of the contents thereof in electronic or physical form, n or copy, use or disseminate the information contained in the email. > > >On 22.03.2013, at 14:35, Dragos Stoicescu dragostoicescu@ wrote: > > >=C3=82=C2- > > >>Asta-i sediul social declarat al aar din timisoara. Cititi in dreapta sus ces te acolo!!! > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>________________________________ > > >> De la: Luciano Mihaita luciano.mihaita@ > > >>C=C3=84=C6'tre: aviatia@yahoogroups.com > > >>Trimis: Joi, 21 Martie 2013 16:29:28 > > >>Subiect: [Aviatia.ro] o situatie alarmanta... si taxarea pasionatilor > > >> > > >>=C3=82=C2- > > >>De asta mi-era teama, ca cineva la un moment dat, se va gandi ca prop ietarii de aeronave sportive sunt de fapt niste propietari de "lux" si ca t rebuie taxati precum propietarii de yahturi... ca deh, daca ai avion inseam na ca esti bogat deci iti permiti... nu conteaza ca unii au facut mari efor turi financiare (si nu doar financiare) sa-si intretina pasiunea, si-au van dut masina, garsoniera, au divortat etc... pe strazile din tara circula mas ini cu mult mai scumpe decat un ULM dar unii considera ca nu sunt un lux... Mai nou, daca nu stiati, AACR a impus o taxa anuala de 500 euro pentru pr elugirea licentei la planoare... din cate am inteles, aceasta taxa se va im pune si Aeroclubului Romaniei care e oarecum victima colaterala... acum 5-6 ani cand au fost inmatriculate primele planoare private din romania nimeni nu se gandea la o asa taxa, dar cum in ultimii ani tot mai multi pasionati au facut eforturi si si-au cumparat un planor SH (multe in > copropietate > > fiindca nu aveau bani destui), ce s-au gandit unii, hai sa-i taxam p-a stia ca prea se inmultesc deci e o sursa sigura de bani... pentru multi 500 euro anual e totusi o suma, chiar si pentru AR care plateste de la buget, ar fi putut cheltui pe altceva zeci de mii de euro cat va avea de platit an ual pentru toate planoarele AR... Si va mai mirati ca multi prefera sa-si inmatriculeze aeronava in Ungaria? Stiti ce s-a intamplatj dupa ce guvernu l a impus acele taxe aberante pentru ambarcatiuni? Toti le-au radiat din ro mania si le-au inmatriculat in Bulgaria... rezultatul? datorita lacomiei st atul roman incaseaza 0 euro pentru ambarcatiunile romanilor iar statul bulg ar incaseaza un ban in plus... Repet, sa nu va mirati daca pe viitor veti vedea pe cerul patriei mai multe aeronave cu indicativul HA decat cu YR On 21.03.2013 09:19, Gica Pascariu wrote: > > >>=C3=82=C2- > > >>>Eu zic sa =C3=82=C2-le dam posibilitatea acestor domni de la ARA s a si exprime punctul lor de vedere si catre noi, CEi care zburam,( eventual ii cotizanti) pentru ca mi Se pare normal sa aiba drept la replica si event ual sa ne convinga de ce sau Cu ce cred dansii ca sunt mai capabili decat A R in a reglementa( imbunatati) situatia actuala existenta. > > >>>Sa incerce sa ne explice, pe intelesul nostru, ce i =C3=82=C2- Det ermina sa faca acest pas in a Se , sacrifica, pentru aviatia mica, excluzan d interesele financiare. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>=C3=82=C2-In cazul in care nu o fac si vor continua Cu demersuri c atre =C3=82=C2-MT si AAR popun ca cineva sa inceapa cu a strange semnatur i pentru a combate aceasta initiativa. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>Putem discuta infocat pe acest forum insa nu cred ca ajuta Cu nimic situatiei actuale, simplele noastre discutii =C3=82=C2- Si nu Se vor lua in considerare nicaieri. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>Cei care stiu cum Se fac aceste lucruri, sa o faca iAr daca este cin eva care stie stadiul actual al demersului ARA, sa ne informeze si pe noi. =C3=82=C2- > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>Astept sfaturi de la cei ce stiu Mai bine. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>Gica PASCARIU=C3=82=C2- > > >>>Director General > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>RO-600001 BACAU > > >>>FLIGHT DESIGN ROMANIA > > >>>Mobile;+40 744 229598 > > >>>Email:office@=C3=82=C2-=C3=82=C2- =C3=82=C2- =C3=82=C2- =C3 =82=C2- =C3=82=C2- > > >>>Web: http://www.flightdesign.ro/ > > >>> > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:00:38 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Aviation-List: Official Aviation-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) Dear Listers, Please read over the Aviation-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. 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The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to the web Forums. You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login. If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the Email Distribution of the List, however. The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL: http://forums.matronics.com ********************************* *** Matronics Email List Wiki *** ********************************* In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at: http://wiki.matronics.com The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately. While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any images and email it to: wiki-support@matronics.com One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct a Wiki page for you. Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that post and convert it into a Wiki page. ********************* *** List Archives *** ********************* A file containing of all of the previous postings to the Aviation-List is available on line. The archive file information is available via the Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below: * Aviation-List.FAQ - Latest version of the Aviation-List Frequently Asked Question page (this document). * Aviation-Archive.digest.complete - Complete file with most of the email header info removed and page breaks inserted between messages. * Aviation-Archive.digest.vol-?? - Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that can more easily handled. * Aviation-Archive.digest.complete.zip - Same as the Aviation-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. * Aviation-Archive.digest.complete.Z - Same as the Aviation-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. Download Via FTP ---------------- The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.) ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives Download Via Web ---------------- The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found toward the bottom of the following web page: http://www.matronics.com/archives ****************************************** *** Complete List Web Archive Browsing *** ****************************************** All messages posted to the Aviation-List are also available using the Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed. http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Aviation ***************************************** **** High-Speed Archive Search Engine *** ***************************************** You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently available List archives. http://www.matronics.com/search **************************** *** File and Photo Share *** **************************** With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures and other data with members of the List without having to forward a copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures@matronics.com !! ==> Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to process them every few days. Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new Share is available and what the direct URL to it is. For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main Index Page: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare ************************** *** List Archive CDROM *** ************************** A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make great gifts! http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM ********************************** *** List Support Contributions *** ********************************** The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members. You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month, I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they are comfortable. I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated by companies that are themselves List members. Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the variety of services found here. Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude. Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Aviation-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Aviation-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Aviation-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Aviation-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Aviation-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:04:51 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Aviation-List: Official Aviation-List Usage Guidelines Dear Listers, Please read over the Aviation-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete Aviation-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Aviation-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Aviation-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Aviation-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Aviation-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Aviation-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Aviation-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aviation-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Aviation-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aviation-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aviation-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.