Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:57 PM - Not the perfect bird for the job, but... (Garrou, Douglas)
2. 03:13 PM - Re: Not the perfect bird for the job, but... (Bruce Boyes)
3. 05:53 PM - Re: Not the perfect bird for the job, but... (AI Nut)
4. 06:08 PM - Re: Not the perfect bird for the job, but... (Larry Bowen)
5. 06:44 PM - Re: Not the perfect bird for the job, but... (Dj Merrill)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Not the perfect bird for the job, but... |
--> Avionics-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas" <dgarrou@hunton.com>
Hi out there. Two partners and I are building a Zenith 801 and it's coming along great. If you're not familiar with this airplane, it's a four-seat, high payload, low speed, all metal boxy-looking bush plane (details at www.zenithair.com). We decided to build the 801 because it's easy to build, and because we wanted what amounted to a cooler, 4-person version of a 152 or 172 for fun flying, mostly low and slow, in Central Virginia -- with the occasional hop to the Outer Banks of NC. We figured basic VFR instrumentation would be suitable, would keep things cheap, and would be faster to install.
All well and good. However, a few years into the project, I have developed a new
aviation need. Family obligations require me to travel between Richmond, VA
and Allentown, PA, on a fairly regular basis (once every three weeks, usually),
for the foreseeable future. This is a relatively hellish 600-mile round-trip
drive on I-95 -- and the drive can't be attempted at all during long stretches
of most weekdays, when rush-hour traffic gridlocks much of the route. The
occasional accident also adds several hours to the trip, on both weekends and
weekdays.
On the other hand, with flight following and my plucky willingness to mess with
the airspace, it's a leisurely 218-mile trip by air, even if you go around the
DC ADIZ (I'm not shy of the ADIZ, but as it turns out, bypassing the ADIZ doesn't
add much to the trip).
I see this trip as a compelling case for general aviation. Now, to be able to
do this trip on anything approaching a real schedule, I obviously need an instrument
rating, which I am in the process of getting. However, I also need an
appropriate airplane.
So you see where I'm going with this. Obviously the 801 is slow - but it sure
beats driving. For a variety of reasons, the 801 may not an ideal instrument
platform. On the other hand, it is *possible* to outfit it for legal instrument
flight.
My question is, do you think this aircraft be turned into a safe Richmond-Allentown
instrument hauler as a *practical* matter, and on a budget? (Note that I
would expect to be footing the bill alone for any IFR avionics, since the other
builders didn't sign on for that ride!) Is there a "high bang for the buck"
combination of new or used avionics that would do the job here?
Or should I give up this idea and try to get a share of a certified airplane that
is already set up for instrument flight?
Thanks
Doug
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Not the perfect bird for the job, but... |
--> Avionics-List message posted by: Bruce Boyes <bboyes@systronix.com>
At 03:56 PM 3/7/2004 -0500, Garrou, Douglas wrote:
>My question is, do you think this aircraft be turned into a safe
>Richmond-Allentown instrument hauler as a *practical* matter, and on a
>budget? (Note that I would expect to be footing the bill alone for any
>IFR avionics, since the other builders didn't sign on for that ride!) Is
>there a "high bang for the buck" combination of new or used avionics that
>would do the job here?
>
>Or should I give up this idea and try to get a share of a certified
>airplane that is already set up for instrument flight?
If you like this plane, and already have a considerable investment, why not
invest a little more and be even happier? That doesn't sound silly to me.
On the other hand, a used IFR 182 could be had for maybe $60K and will
cruise at 130 knots. But then you have two airplanes to share and maintain,
two insurance policies, etc, etc.
Here's what I think matters in an instrument platform, and I can't answer
about how well the 801 will meet these needs, but you can. I'm barely
qualified to comment at all, being a 6 year, 500+ hour pilot with a
commercial instrument license and only a handful of hard IFR hours. But
it's Sunday, and here we are, so here goes... Of course you need what the
FARs require too -- pitot heat for example. These items are just what I
consider important in addition.
First, some pithy quotes for which I can't claim credit:
1) Flying is all about risk management.
2) The only place to buy safety is at the pilot training store (not the
avionics shop)
So -- flying one plane twice as often, if it's a safe plane, would seem to
be a good deal in terms of risk reduction.
1) easy to fly single pilot. Single pilot IFR is demanding. 172s and 182s
are stable single pilot IFR platforms, the Commanche 250 is not, in my
experience. A simple autopilot, wing leveler, or right seat pilot is handy.
2) enough power to handle ice. Fly even a little IFR, making every effort
to avoid ice, and you will still pick up at least a little ice, guaranteed.
The only way to never pick up ice is to stay out of the clouds, and that's
not even 100% effective. If you are marginally powered, you have little
option but to descend at once. Power is good and more is better.
3) as you have learned you need at least one VOR, so get one of the
all-in-one VOR/ILS receiver and OBS units which are available refurbed. I
can't recall the brand but it all fits in one round panel hole. Or get a
UPS SL30 nav/com and OBS - this is a great little unit and has an OBS on
the nav/com unit too.
3) a decent panel mounted GPS can be had for cheap these days and it will
serve as a backup system even if it's not IFR certified. If you can get
enroute IFR certification then you can substitute for DME and ADF I think.
4) lots of gas. I fly a Commanche 250 with tip tanks, 90 gal total, over 5
hours with IFR reserves. This gives me a lot of options in terms of
alternates, holding, etc. I like to use the tips (good for 2.5 hours more
or less) and land with most of the mains still full. 182s with 87 or 88
usable are nice too. My bladder is the limiting factor, and I like it that
way. I've had to divert to a small airport with no gas to sit out weather.
Lots of fuel on board made this a no-stress decision.
5) electric AI? Something to avoid the "vacuum pump failure takes out most
of your panel" problem.
6) good cell phone with a big battery. I've been stuck in podunk, sitting
out weather at a field miles from a town, in a valley, so poor radio
coverage, but with cell coverage (verizon) so I could call for weather and
file a plan when things looked best. Without the cell phone I'd have been a
lot less happy.
7) good cockpit lighting. Lights on every gauge, one for the panel at
large, and a map light for charts in your lap. The new Cessna 182 has the
best night lighting of any plane I have flown - instrument dimmer, radio
dimmer, pedestal dimmer, glareshield dimmer, plus a map light on the yoke!
I Still carry three small flashlights and a lightstick.
8) windshield defrost. It's a bummer to have the windshield ice over and be
looking at the runway out of a tiny corner of the windshield. Does the 801
have this? Some small planes have no defroster.
One of the groups I fly with just took delivery of a new 182T (not the
glass cockpit one). It has an SL30 with a single OBS and a UPS 60 GPS, both
tied to the OBS. The GPS also has comm capability. This seems like the
minimum IFR machine to me. A second nav with ILS would be nice. Believe it
or not, the brand new plane's CDI lateral guidance failed last time we flew
it. So much for what you get for $272,000.
Finally, don't ever think you 'have to get there now'. I know we've all
heard that until it doesn't even register, but most fatal accidents could
have been prevented if the PIC had just waited a day, instrument rating or
no. As a friend of mine says - if you're agonizing over whether to launch
and are still not sure it's safe to go, have a beer. Decision made - you
can't go!
If you fly a lot you'll stay proficient (not just current) and will do
fine. It's hard as a GA pilot to stay IFR proficient. I've astonished
myself with how rusty and sloppy I got after 4 months of little flying last
year -- fortunately with a safety pilot in the right seat, rather than a
'real' flight. IFR proficiency is a perishable skill.
It will be interesting to see what other opinions you get!
Regards
Bruce
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Not the perfect bird for the job, but... |
--> Avionics-List message posted by: "AI Nut" <ainut@earthlink.net>
I think a Bearhawk is more in line with your goals. It's a hauler, too, and
it cruises around 200 knots and sounds like the 801 is similar construction.
Quick build kits are available.
AI Nut
----- Original Message -----
From: "Garrou, Douglas" <dgarrou@hunton.com>
Subject: Avionics-List: Not the perfect bird for the job, but...
> --> Avionics-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas"
<dgarrou@hunton.com>
>
> Hi out there. Two partners and I are building a Zenith 801 and it's
coming along great. If you're not familiar with this airplane, it's a
four-seat, high payload, low speed, all metal boxy-looking bush plane
(details at www.zenithair.com). We decided to build the 801 because it's
easy to build, and because we wanted what amounted to a cooler, 4-person
version of a 152 or 172 for fun flying, mostly low and slow, in Central
Virginia -- with the occasional hop to the Outer Banks of NC. We figured
basic VFR instrumentation would be suitable, would keep things cheap, and
would be faster to install.
>
> All well and good. However, a few years into the project, I have
developed a new aviation need. Family obligations require me to travel
between Richmond, VA and Allentown, PA, on a fairly regular basis (once
every three weeks, usually), for the foreseeable future. This is a
relatively hellish 600-mile round-trip drive on I-95 -- and the drive can't
be attempted at all during long stretches of most weekdays, when rush-hour
traffic gridlocks much of the route. The occasional accident also adds
several hours to the trip, on both weekends and weekdays.
>
> On the other hand, with flight following and my plucky willingness to mess
with the airspace, it's a leisurely 218-mile trip by air, even if you go
around the DC ADIZ (I'm not shy of the ADIZ, but as it turns out, bypassing
the ADIZ doesn't add much to the trip).
>
> I see this trip as a compelling case for general aviation. Now, to be
able to do this trip on anything approaching a real schedule, I obviously
need an instrument rating, which I am in the process of getting. However, I
also need an appropriate airplane.
>
> So you see where I'm going with this. Obviously the 801 is slow - but it
sure beats driving. For a variety of reasons, the 801 may not an ideal
instrument platform. On the other hand, it is *possible* to outfit it for
legal instrument flight.
>
> My question is, do you think this aircraft be turned into a safe
Richmond-Allentown instrument hauler as a *practical* matter, and on a
budget? (Note that I would expect to be footing the bill alone for any IFR
avionics, since the other builders didn't sign on for that ride!) Is there
a "high bang for the buck" combination of new or used avionics that would do
the job here?
>
> Or should I give up this idea and try to get a share of a certified
airplane that is already set up for instrument flight?
>
> Thanks
> Doug
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Not the perfect bird for the job, but... |
--> Avionics-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
200 Knots?!
The bearhawk VNE is 175 MPH and cruise is 160 MPH with the bigger
engine.
http://www.bearhawkaircraft.com/Bearhawk/BearhawkMain.html
I like the Bearhawk too. Not as pretty as an RV-8, but a true SUV.
-
Larry Bowen, RV-8 FWF
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: AI Nut [mailto:ainut@earthlink.net]
> Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 8:54 PM
> To: avionics-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Avionics-List: Not the perfect bird for the job, but...
>
>
> --> Avionics-List message posted by: "AI Nut" <ainut@earthlink.net>
>
> I think a Bearhawk is more in line with your goals. It's a
> hauler, too, and it cruises around 200 knots and sounds like
> the 801 is similar construction. Quick build kits are available.
>
> AI Nut
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Garrou, Douglas" <dgarrou@hunton.com>
> To: <avionics-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Avionics-List: Not the perfect bird for the job, but...
>
>
> > --> Avionics-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas"
> <dgarrou@hunton.com>
> >
> > Hi out there. Two partners and I are building a Zenith 801 and it's
> coming along great. If you're not familiar with this
> airplane, it's a four-seat, high payload, low speed, all
> metal boxy-looking bush plane (details at www.zenithair.com).
> We decided to build the 801 because it's easy to build, and
> because we wanted what amounted to a cooler, 4-person version
> of a 152 or 172 for fun flying, mostly low and slow, in
> Central Virginia -- with the occasional hop to the Outer
> Banks of NC. We figured basic VFR instrumentation would be
> suitable, would keep things cheap, and would be faster to install.
> >
> > All well and good. However, a few years into the project, I have
> developed a new aviation need. Family obligations require me
> to travel between Richmond, VA and Allentown, PA, on a fairly
> regular basis (once every three weeks, usually), for the
> foreseeable future. This is a relatively hellish 600-mile
> round-trip drive on I-95 -- and the drive can't be attempted
> at all during long stretches of most weekdays, when rush-hour
> traffic gridlocks much of the route. The occasional accident
> also adds several hours to the trip, on both weekends and weekdays.
> >
> > On the other hand, with flight following and my plucky
> willingness to
> > mess
> with the airspace, it's a leisurely 218-mile trip by air,
> even if you go around the DC ADIZ (I'm not shy of the ADIZ,
> but as it turns out, bypassing the ADIZ doesn't add much to the trip).
> >
> > I see this trip as a compelling case for general aviation.
> Now, to be
> able to do this trip on anything approaching a real schedule,
> I obviously need an instrument rating, which I am in the
> process of getting. However, I also need an appropriate airplane.
> >
> > So you see where I'm going with this. Obviously the 801 is
> slow - but
> > it
> sure beats driving. For a variety of reasons, the 801 may
> not an ideal instrument platform. On the other hand, it is
> *possible* to outfit it for legal instrument flight.
> >
> > My question is, do you think this aircraft be turned into a safe
> Richmond-Allentown instrument hauler as a *practical* matter,
> and on a budget? (Note that I would expect to be footing the
> bill alone for any IFR avionics, since the other builders
> didn't sign on for that ride!) Is there a "high bang for the
> buck" combination of new or used avionics that would do the job here?
> >
> > Or should I give up this idea and try to get a share of a certified
> airplane that is already set up for instrument flight?
> >
> > Thanks
> > Doug
> >
> >
>
>
> ============
> Matronics Forums.
> ============
> ============
> ============
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Not the perfect bird for the job, but... |
--> Avionics-List message posted by: Dj Merrill <deej@thayer.dartmouth.edu>
Bruce Boyes wrote:
> 3) as you have learned you need at least one VOR, so get one of the
> all-in-one VOR/ILS receiver and OBS units which are available refurbed. I
> can't recall the brand but it all fits in one round panel hole.
You might be thinking of the Narco NAV-122.
> 3) a decent panel mounted GPS can be had for cheap these days and it will
> serve as a backup system even if it's not IFR certified. If you can get
> enroute IFR certification then you can substitute for DME and ADF I think.
I picked up a refurbished King KLN-89B (IFR enroute and
approach rated) on Ebay for $900.
> 5) electric AI? Something to avoid the "vacuum pump failure takes out most
> of your panel" problem.
Or something like a Dynon EFIS-D10.
You get 10 instruments for $2k, and although not
technically IFR rated, it makes for an excellent
suite of backup instruments, and the cost is about the
same as an electric AI, I believe.
http://www.dynonavionics.com/
> 6) good cell phone with a big battery. I've been stuck in podunk, sitting
> out weather at a field miles from a town, in a valley, so poor radio
> coverage, but with cell coverage (verizon) so I could call for weather and
> file a plan when things looked best. Without the cell phone I'd have been a
> lot less happy.
Or add a 12v power outlet to your plane, and carry the
cell phone charger with you. I, unfortunately, ended up at
a remote field once, and the battery on the cell phone was dead,
and I did not have the charger with me.
I had to walk about 2 miles to the nearest source of lights
(a local bar, as it turned out) to use the phone.
> 7) good cockpit lighting. Lights on every gauge, one for the panel at
> large, and a map light for charts in your lap.
A must! I've just removed post lights, and installed
the Nulite instrument lights on all instruments. Definitely
an improvement and worth the investment.
-Dj
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