---------------------------------------------------------- Avionics-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 11/09/05: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:34 AM - Nav coms (Bob Gibfried) 2. 09:13 AM - Anyone out there? (springcanyon) 3. 10:12 AM - Re: Anyone out there? (Bruce Gray) 4. 11:32 AM - Anybody out there??? (ROBINFLY@aol.com) 5. 12:00 PM - Re: Anybody out there??? (David Lloyd) 6. 12:14 PM - Re: Anybody out there??? (Fred Fillinger) 7. 01:44 PM - Re: Anybody out there??? (Mike Ferrer) 8. 01:56 PM - Re: Anybody out there??? (Ralph E. Capen) 9. 06:47 PM - Re: Anybody out there??? (David Lloyd) 10. 07:00 PM - Re: Anyone out there? (Jim Stone) 11. 08:08 PM - Re: Anybody out there??? (NYTerminat@aol.com) 12. 09:21 PM - Re: Anybody out there??? (John Rippengal) 13. 09:38 PM - Re: Anybody out there??? (David Lloyd) 14. 10:33 PM - Re: Anybody out there??? (Werner Schneider) 15. 10:48 PM - Re: Anybody out there??? (Werner Schneider) 16. 11:00 PM - Re: Anybody out there??? (John Rippengal) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:34:19 AM PST US From: "Bob Gibfried" Subject: Avionics-List: Nav coms --> Avionics-List message posted by: "Bob Gibfried" On a serious note, with a club aircraft, I'd take a look at how the plane is used. For training you still need a nav com with a separate indicator and glide slope and probably a gps com as a backup. I carry an Icom com but just as a backup to my Bendix 125 and Bendix KMD 150. My panel doesn't lend itself to hard IFR approaches but I don't do those anymore. Bob, Wichita ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:13:25 AM PST US From: "springcanyon" Subject: Avionics-List: Anyone out there? --> Avionics-List message posted by: "springcanyon" Hi Rick, Yes, Im here just dont have much to write about yet. Im at the serious thinking about the panel stage. Im looking toward the GRT EFIS system, but dont quite know how to fill in around it yet. Don Owens Spring Canyon Ranch ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:12:53 AM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: Avionics-List: Anyone out there? --> Avionics-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" Unless you really have big bucks or don't plan on flying IFR, I'd avoid a glass panel. Why? Safety. Look at any heavy metal glass panel. Duel independent (including dual AHRS) EFIS systems. They even have a 3rd tie breaker steam gage ADI. All of that redundancy is necessary to insure you have safe failure modes. OK, you only have one pilot but you still need 3 independent attitude systems. You're flying along shooting your local ILS in bad (200 - 1/2) weather. At 400 AGL you notice your fancy EFIS telling you you're nose high, your standby vacuum/electric ADI says nose low. What are you going to do? Which one is right? We know the failure modes of steam gages, the standard 6-pack has been developed with independent sources and any discrepancy is readily noticed. Not so with EFIS. Those black boxes have some strange failure modes. Hence the FAA requirement for duel systems in part 121 operations. Now if I were bound and determined to fly a glass panel, I'd stick with CERTIFIED equipment (Garmin, Chelton, or Avidyne) and put in 2 additional ADI systems. When I made my decisions last year I decided to go with the Sandel EHSI, PN101 (Second HSI and #2 nav head), vacuum ADI and electric T&B (came with the STEC 55X A/P). If I were to do it today, I'd use the certified Chelton system, a second vacuum attitude indicator, an electric T&B, and a second ASI and altimeter. I wonder how many pilots are going to fly that hypnotic Garmin 1000 screen right into the ground before we wise up. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-avionics-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-avionics-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of springcanyon Subject: Avionics-List: Anyone out there? --> Avionics-List message posted by: "springcanyon" Hi Rick, Yes, Im here just dont have much to write about yet. Im at the serious thinking about the panel stage. Im looking toward the GRT EFIS system, but dont quite know how to fill in around it yet. Don Owens Spring Canyon Ranch ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:32:08 AM PST US From: ROBINFLY@aol.com Subject: Avionics-List: Anybody out there??? --> Avionics-List message posted by: ROBINFLY@aol.com What is your budget? Are you IFR or VFR? Do you need IFR GPS, ADF or DME? If you are VFR only with very low budget, I will set priority as: COMM, transponder, GPS, intercom, audio panel, then VOR/ILS. Use portable equipments when possible (ie, GPS, intercom, Comm, traffic) Icom A200 is nice, and I think it is the same radio as King KY-97A. If you want VOR, King KX-125 is a very good value with more features than KX-155; it has a built-in CDI, that alone will save you big money on both equipment & installation. But why use VOR for VFR when a $500 aviation GPS offers much more? For #2 comm, a nice handheld with external antenna and wiring to audio offers more than a 2nd panel mount because if you need it for emergency, it is already there. For many years, I have used a Icom A23 as my 2nd comm. I got looks from other pilots but with external antenna, it is always loud and clear everywhere I go. I cannot see any performance difference comparing with my panel mount. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:00:11 PM PST US From: "David Lloyd" Subject: Re: Avionics-List: Anybody out there??? --> Avionics-List message posted by: "David Lloyd" ...speaking to your example of using a handheld COMM with an external antenna. What is the slick or cleverest method today for un-coupling, example, panel mount, COMM 2 from it's external antenna and connecting a handheld to the same external antenna? This would be useful; if the main electrical or COMM's failed, or, if you stuck in Parking or similar waiting for a clearance or other instructions. Beats having your main electrical system hot and/or your engine idling for long periods. I have seen the antenna feed come out to the front panel and then back in via BNC "U" shaped short cable. The antenna side can be unconnected and the hand held plugged in. But, is there a more clever, cleaner way of doing the same?? David ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Avionics-List: Anybody out there??? > --> Avionics-List message posted by: ROBINFLY@aol.com > > What is your budget? Are you IFR or VFR? Do you need IFR GPS, ADF or > DME? > If you are VFR only with very low budget, I will set priority as: COMM, > transponder, GPS, intercom, audio panel, then VOR/ILS. Use portable > equipments when > possible (ie, GPS, intercom, Comm, traffic) > > Icom A200 is nice, and I think it is the same radio as King KY-97A. If > you > want VOR, King KX-125 is a very good value with more features than KX-155; > it > has a built-in CDI, that alone will save you big money on both equipment & > installation. But why use VOR for VFR when a $500 aviation GPS offers > much more? > > For #2 comm, a nice handheld with external antenna and wiring to audio > offers > more than a 2nd panel mount because if you need it for emergency, it is > already there. For many years, I have used a Icom A23 as my 2nd comm. I > got looks > from other pilots but with external antenna, it is always loud and clear > everywhere I go. I cannot see any performance difference comparing with > my panel > mount. > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:14:11 PM PST US From: "Fred Fillinger" Subject: Re: Avionics-List: Anybody out there??? --> Avionics-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" > Icom A200 is nice, and I think it is the same radio as King KY-97A. Perhaps this is worth comment, should someone buy Icom on that basis. I've not run across something like that. Besides complicating the FAA approval process, even a digital-display comm is simple enough to implement, Icom shouldn't need King's help in design nor actually pay them for it. Nor would King be interested at all, I'd think. Reg, Fred F. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:44:52 PM PST US From: "Mike Ferrer" Subject: Re: Avionics-List: Anybody out there??? --> Avionics-List message posted by: "Mike Ferrer" If you had an Icom handheld, you could use this... http://www.pacific-coast-avionics.com/detail.asp?id=4024 Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Lloyd" Subject: Re: Avionics-List: Anybody out there??? > --> Avionics-List message posted by: "David Lloyd" > > ...speaking to your example of using a handheld COMM with an external > antenna. > > What is the slick or cleverest method today for un-coupling, example, panel > mount, COMM 2 from it's external antenna and connecting a handheld to the > same external antenna? > > This would be useful; if the main electrical or COMM's failed, or, if you > stuck in Parking or similar waiting for a clearance or other instructions. > Beats having your main electrical system hot and/or your engine idling for > long periods. > > I have seen the antenna feed come out to the front panel and then back in > via BNC "U" shaped short cable. The antenna side can be unconnected and the > hand held plugged in. But, is there a more clever, cleaner way of doing the > same?? > David > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Subject: Avionics-List: Anybody out there??? > > > > --> Avionics-List message posted by: ROBINFLY@aol.com > > > > What is your budget? Are you IFR or VFR? Do you need IFR GPS, ADF or > > DME? > > If you are VFR only with very low budget, I will set priority as: COMM, > > transponder, GPS, intercom, audio panel, then VOR/ILS. Use portable > > equipments when > > possible (ie, GPS, intercom, Comm, traffic) > > > > Icom A200 is nice, and I think it is the same radio as King KY-97A. If > > you > > want VOR, King KX-125 is a very good value with more features than KX-155; > > it > > has a built-in CDI, that alone will save you big money on both equipment & > > installation. But why use VOR for VFR when a $500 aviation GPS offers > > much more? > > > > For #2 comm, a nice handheld with external antenna and wiring to audio > > offers > > more than a 2nd panel mount because if you need it for emergency, it is > > already there. For many years, I have used a Icom A23 as my 2nd comm. I > > got looks > > from other pilots but with external antenna, it is always loud and clear > > everywhere I go. I cannot see any performance difference comparing with > > my panel > > mount. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:56:41 PM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: Re: Avionics-List: Anybody out there??? --> Avionics-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" I think Bob Nuckolls had an article on a device that performs a similar function. IIRC it was a stereo jack the plugged in to your panel - the panel receptacle breaks the original connection and reroutes to what you just jacked in -----Original Message----- From: Mike Ferrer Subject: Re: Avionics-List: Anybody out there??? --> Avionics-List message posted by: "Mike Ferrer" If you had an Icom handheld, you could use this... http://www.pacific-coast-avionics.com/detail.asp?id=4024 Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Lloyd" Subject: Re: Avionics-List: Anybody out there??? > --> Avionics-List message posted by: "David Lloyd" > > ...speaking to your example of using a handheld COMM with an external > antenna. > > What is the slick or cleverest method today for un-coupling, example, panel > mount, COMM 2 from it's external antenna and connecting a handheld to the > same external antenna? > > This would be useful; if the main electrical or COMM's failed, or, if you > stuck in Parking or similar waiting for a clearance or other instructions. > Beats having your main electrical system hot and/or your engine idling for > long periods. > > I have seen the antenna feed come out to the front panel and then back in > via BNC "U" shaped short cable. The antenna side can be unconnected and the > hand held plugged in. But, is there a more clever, cleaner way of doing the > same?? > David > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Subject: Avionics-List: Anybody out there??? > > > > --> Avionics-List message posted by: ROBINFLY@aol.com > > > > What is your budget? Are you IFR or VFR? Do you need IFR GPS, ADF or > > DME? > > If you are VFR only with very low budget, I will set priority as: COMM, > > transponder, GPS, intercom, audio panel, then VOR/ILS. Use portable > > equipments when > > possible (ie, GPS, intercom, Comm, traffic) > > > > Icom A200 is nice, and I think it is the same radio as King KY-97A. If > > you > > want VOR, King KX-125 is a very good value with more features than KX-155; > > it > > has a built-in CDI, that alone will save you big money on both equipment & > > installation. But why use VOR for VFR when a $500 aviation GPS offers > > much more? > > > > For #2 comm, a nice handheld with external antenna and wiring to audio > > offers > > more than a 2nd panel mount because if you need it for emergency, it is > > already there. For many years, I have used a Icom A23 as my 2nd comm. I > > got looks > > from other pilots but with external antenna, it is always loud and clear > > everywhere I go. I cannot see any performance difference comparing with > > my panel > > mount. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:47:50 PM PST US From: "David Lloyd" Subject: Re: Avionics-List: Anybody out there??? --> Avionics-List message posted by: "David Lloyd" Thank you both for the antenna coupling suggestions. Seems they are both the same answer...one home built and the other manuf. David ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: Re: Avionics-List: Anybody out there??? > --> Avionics-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" > > > I think Bob Nuckolls had an article on a device that performs a similar > function. > > IIRC it was a stereo jack the plugged in to your panel - the panel > receptacle breaks the original connection and reroutes to what you just > jacked in > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Ferrer > To: avionics-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Avionics-List: Anybody out there??? > > --> Avionics-List message posted by: "Mike Ferrer" > > > If you had an Icom handheld, you could use this... > http://www.pacific-coast-avionics.com/detail.asp?id=4024 > > Mike > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Lloyd" > To: > Subject: Re: Avionics-List: Anybody out there??? > > >> --> Avionics-List message posted by: "David Lloyd" >> >> ...speaking to your example of using a handheld COMM with an external >> antenna. >> >> What is the slick or cleverest method today for un-coupling, example, > panel >> mount, COMM 2 from it's external antenna and connecting a handheld to the >> same external antenna? >> >> This would be useful; if the main electrical or COMM's failed, or, if you >> stuck in Parking or similar waiting for a clearance or other >> instructions. >> Beats having your main electrical system hot and/or your engine idling >> for >> long periods. >> >> I have seen the antenna feed come out to the front panel and then back in >> via BNC "U" shaped short cable. The antenna side can be unconnected and > the >> hand held plugged in. But, is there a more clever, cleaner way of doing > the >> same?? >> David >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: >> Subject: Avionics-List: Anybody out there??? >> >> >> > --> Avionics-List message posted by: ROBINFLY@aol.com >> > >> > What is your budget? Are you IFR or VFR? Do you need IFR GPS, ADF or >> > DME? >> > If you are VFR only with very low budget, I will set priority as: COMM, >> > transponder, GPS, intercom, audio panel, then VOR/ILS. Use portable >> > equipments when >> > possible (ie, GPS, intercom, Comm, traffic) >> > >> > Icom A200 is nice, and I think it is the same radio as King KY-97A. If >> > you >> > want VOR, King KX-125 is a very good value with more features than > KX-155; >> > it >> > has a built-in CDI, that alone will save you big money on both >> > equipment > & >> > installation. But why use VOR for VFR when a $500 aviation GPS offers >> > much more? >> > >> > For #2 comm, a nice handheld with external antenna and wiring to audio >> > offers >> > more than a 2nd panel mount because if you need it for emergency, it is >> > already there. For many years, I have used a Icom A23 as my 2nd comm. > I >> > got looks >> > from other pilots but with external antenna, it is always loud and >> > clear >> > everywhere I go. I cannot see any performance difference comparing >> > with >> > my panel >> > mount. >> > >> > >> > >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:00:34 PM PST US From: "Jim Stone" Subject: Re: Avionics-List: Anyone out there? --> Avionics-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" Bruce, Most of the heavy iron glass cockpit redundancy is there for dispatch reliabilty, not because the glass fails frequently. The multuple power sources are in place as you say but again I believe they are there to enable dispatch with a generator inop and also to give the Cat II and III landing capability that the airliners need occationally. I personally feel glass is the future and we are fortunate to have an opportunity to be on the leading edge of what will certainly be the norm in a few years. Jim Stone BTW. I went with the GRT EFIS with a pictorial turn and bank and Digiflight II VS , and used two power sources for the EFIS for my reduncy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: Avionics-List: Anyone out there? > --> Avionics-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" > > Unless you really have big bucks or don't plan on flying IFR, I'd avoid a > glass panel. > > Why? Safety. Look at any heavy metal glass panel. Duel independent > (including dual AHRS) EFIS systems. They even have a 3rd tie breaker steam > gage ADI. All of that redundancy is necessary to insure you have safe > failure modes. > > OK, you only have one pilot but you still need 3 independent attitude > systems. You're flying along shooting your local ILS in bad (200 - 1/2) > weather. At 400 AGL you notice your fancy EFIS telling you you're nose > high, > your standby vacuum/electric ADI says nose low. What are you going to do? > Which one is right? > > We know the failure modes of steam gages, the standard 6-pack has been > developed with independent sources and any discrepancy is readily noticed. > Not so with EFIS. Those black boxes have some strange failure modes. Hence > the FAA requirement for duel systems in part 121 operations. > > Now if I were bound and determined to fly a glass panel, I'd stick with > CERTIFIED equipment (Garmin, Chelton, or Avidyne) and put in 2 additional > ADI systems. When I made my decisions last year I decided to go with the > Sandel EHSI, PN101 (Second HSI and #2 nav head), vacuum ADI and electric > T&B > (came with the STEC 55X A/P). If I were to do it today, I'd use the > certified Chelton system, a second vacuum attitude indicator, an electric > T&B, and a second ASI and altimeter. > > I wonder how many pilots are going to fly that hypnotic Garmin 1000 screen > right into the ground before we wise up. > > Bruce > www.glasair.org > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-avionics-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-avionics-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > springcanyon > To: avionics-list@matronics.com > Subject: Avionics-List: Anyone out there? > > > --> Avionics-List message posted by: "springcanyon" > > > Hi Rick, > > Yes, Im here just dont have much to write about yet. Im at > the serious thinking about the panel stage. Im looking toward the GRT > EFIS system, but dont quite know how to fill in around it yet. > > Don Owens > Spring Canyon Ranch > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:08:35 PM PST US From: NYTerminat@aol.com Subject: Re: Avionics-List: Anybody out there??? --> Avionics-List message posted by: NYTerminat@aol.com What is available for a handheld nav/com. I have an old Icom A20. Would like to use as a backup to my Icom panel mount radio. Can I just use it for comm or can I get the Nav to work too? I have GPS and Loran for nav functions. Bob Spudis CH-701/912S ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:21:18 PM PST US From: "John Rippengal" Subject: Re: Avionics-List: Anybody out there??? --> Avionics-List message posted by: "John Rippengal" If you only want to use the handheld while waiting for clearance then just use the rubber duck antenna. Best overall solution is to have two comm antennas; your handheld will then have almost as good a range as the panel mount. John From: "David Lloyd" > --> Avionics-List message posted by: "David Lloyd" > > ...speaking to your example of using a handheld COMM with an external > antenna. > > What is the slick or cleverest method today for un-coupling, example, > panel > mount, COMM 2 from it's external antenna and connecting a handheld to the > same external antenna? > > This would be useful; if the main electrical or COMM's failed, or, if you > stuck in Parking or similar waiting for a clearance or other instructions. > Beats having your main electrical system hot and/or your engine idling for > long periods. > > I have seen the antenna feed come out to the front panel and then back in > via BNC "U" shaped short cable. The antenna side can be unconnected and > the > hand held plugged in. But, is there a more clever, cleaner way of doing > the > same?? > David ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:33 PM PST US From: "David Lloyd" Subject: Re: Avionics-List: Anybody out there??? --> Avionics-List message posted by: "David Lloyd" John, I don't really want to install a 3rd antenna up top. David ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Rippengal" Subject: Re: Avionics-List: Anybody out there??? > --> Avionics-List message posted by: "John Rippengal" > > > If you only want to use the handheld while waiting for clearance then just > use the rubber duck antenna. > Best overall solution is to have two comm antennas; > your handheld will then have almost as good a range > as the panel mount. > John > From: "David Lloyd" > > >> --> Avionics-List message posted by: "David Lloyd" >> >> ...speaking to your example of using a handheld COMM with an external >> antenna. >> >> What is the slick or cleverest method today for un-coupling, example, >> panel >> mount, COMM 2 from it's external antenna and connecting a handheld to the >> same external antenna? >> >> This would be useful; if the main electrical or COMM's failed, or, if you >> stuck in Parking or similar waiting for a clearance or other >> instructions. >> Beats having your main electrical system hot and/or your engine idling >> for >> long periods. >> >> I have seen the antenna feed come out to the front panel and then back in >> via BNC "U" shaped short cable. The antenna side can be unconnected and >> the >> hand held plugged in. But, is there a more clever, cleaner way of doing >> the >> same?? >> David > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:33:04 PM PST US From: Werner Schneider Subject: Re: Avionics-List: Anybody out there??? --> Avionics-List message posted by: Werner Schneider > If you >want VOR, King KX-125 is a very good value with more features than KX-155; it >has a built-in CDI, that alone will save you big money on both equipment & >installation. > > I would meanwhile advice against that Nav-Com (out of experience against everything from King), my unit lost the Nav part quite soon as I was out of guarantee (I bought a year before first flight) the repair cost were immense (>1300$). If you want to add GS later it will be more expensive then an Apollo/Garmin SL-30 which has more nice features (built-in Intercom, standby freq monitoring, cross pointer etc), much more modern technics (software driven) and the repairs (if they ever happen) are much more moderate (global rate if defect for each equipment (e.g. ~600$ for a GNS430) Werner (now SL-30) ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:48:37 PM PST US From: Werner Schneider Subject: Re: Avionics-List: Anybody out there??? --> Avionics-List message posted by: Werner Schneider Hello Bob, I have my A20 connected into my GMA 340 audio pannel, I did need an interfacebox in order to get it working with the PTT (can supply address and price). The Nav part does work in principle, however due to the antenna optimized for the com it's not optimal. But it was a good way to test if my KX-125 was the problem or the Antenna (it was the bloody KX-125). br Werner NYTerminat@aol.com wrote: >--> Avionics-List message posted by: NYTerminat@aol.com > >What is available for a handheld nav/com. I have an old Icom A20. Would like >to use as a backup to my Icom panel mount radio. Can I just use it for comm or >can I get the Nav to work too? I have GPS and Loran for nav functions. > >Bob Spudis > >CH-701/912S > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:00:41 PM PST US From: "John Rippengal" Subject: Re: Avionics-List: Anybody out there??? --> Avionics-List message posted by: "John Rippengal" Can understand that. My perspective was from a glass homebuilt - Rutan Defiant - where you can mount any number of antennas internally. I had a Jim Weir dipole with one leg across the top of the fuselage and the other leg down the side. That way I got both vertical and horizontal polarisation for an Icom A20 so both comm and VOR worked quite well; plus of course a comm antenna in each winglet and nav on each side of the canard. All buried in the glass of course. John From: "David Lloyd" > --> Avionics-List message posted by: "David Lloyd" > > John, > I don't really want to install a 3rd antenna up top. > David >