---------------------------------------------------------- Avionics-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 11/20/05: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:58 AM - Re: GPS IFR requirements (DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com) 2. 08:47 AM - Re: GPS IFR requirements (springcanyon) 3. 08:57 AM - Re: GPS IFR requirements (DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com) 4. 09:27 AM - Re: GPS IFR requirements (Richard Dudley) 5. 10:04 AM - Re: GPS IFR requirements (Franz Fux) 6. 12:41 PM - ARC R402A Marker Beacon Receiver (Dave Zilz) 7. 02:47 PM - MD200-306 indicator and dual navs () 8. 03:13 PM - Re: GPS IFR requirements (DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com) 9. 03:14 PM - Re: GPS IFR requirements (DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com) 10. 03:42 PM - Re: GPS IFR requirements () ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:58:38 AM PST US From: DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com Subject: Re: Avionics-List: GPS IFR requirements --> Avionics-List message posted by: DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com Could someone please advise the email address & phone # for the wing tip antennas? Thanks Doug Preston #40372 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:47:59 AM PST US From: "springcanyon" Subject: RE: Avionics-List: GPS IFR requirements --> Avionics-List message posted by: "springcanyon" Hi Doug, Bob Archer: 310-316-8796 The guy is very helpful. I installed his vor antenna in my RV-7 wing tip. It was quite straight forward. Don Owens -----Original Message----- From: owner-avionics-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-avionics-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com Subject: Re: Avionics-List: GPS IFR requirements --> Avionics-List message posted by: DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com Could someone please advise the email address & phone # for the wing tip antennas? Thanks Doug Preston #40372 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:57:39 AM PST US From: DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com Subject: Re: Avionics-List: GPS IFR requirements --> Avionics-List message posted by: DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com Thanks. Had used 1 before in 6A and worked fine. That was several years ago and I couldn't find his info. Regards, Doug ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:27:47 AM PST US From: Richard Dudley Subject: Re: Avionics-List: GPS IFR requirements --> Avionics-List message posted by: Richard Dudley Doug, They are also available from Aircraft Spruce. That's where I purchased mine. Regards, RHDudley -6A flying DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com wrote: >--> Avionics-List message posted by: DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com > >Could someone please advise the email address & phone # for the wing tip >antennas? >Thanks > >Doug Preston >#40372 > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:04:43 AM PST US From: "Franz Fux" Subject: RE: Avionics-List: GPS IFR requirements --> Avionics-List message posted by: "Franz Fux" Hi Doug, I have a brand new Archer Com wingtip antenna for sale if you are interested, contact me off list at franz@lastfrontierheli.com Franz, RV7A wiring -----Original Message----- From: owner-avionics-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-avionics-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Richard Dudley Subject: Re: Avionics-List: GPS IFR requirements --> Avionics-List message posted by: Richard Dudley Doug, They are also available from Aircraft Spruce. That's where I purchased mine. Regards, RHDudley -6A flying DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com wrote: >--> Avionics-List message posted by: DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com > >Could someone please advise the email address & phone # for the wing tip >antennas? >Thanks > >Doug Preston >#40372 > > -- Checked by AVG Free Edition. -- Checked by AVG Free Edition. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:41:38 PM PST US From: "Dave Zilz" Subject: Avionics-List: ARC R402A Marker Beacon Receiver --> Avionics-List message posted by: "Dave Zilz" I'm looking for a Pin Out diagram for an ARC R402A Marker Beacon Receiver. Can anyone point me to such a document? Thx Dave ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:47:27 PM PST US From: Subject: Avionics-List: MD200-306 indicator and dual navs INNOCENT GLOBAL 0.0268 1.0000 -4.1053 --> Avionics-List message posted by: 11/20/2005 Hello Old Bob, Right you are (see below) and thanks for the opportunity to amplify. When I wrote "You may have runway end location from a data base....skip...." I had in mind three possible end of runway location sources using a data base instead of just field lat long printed on the approach plate, but I did not want to digress that extensively. They are: 1) As you suggest if the GPS has an IFR data base one can call up the identification of the localizer as a destination and then use an approach plate's description of the end of the runway from that localizer to provide end of runway location. 2) One can call up the actual end of runway waypoint from the GPS IFR data base if that waypoint is contained therein. Usually in the form of a five letter missed approach waypoint such as SHENA on the GPS RWY 22 approach to Culpeper VA Regional (CJR). 3) Or if one is operating with a VFR only GPS that does not contain internally either of the two IFR data points described above one can get a compact disc from NACO http://www.naco.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=naco/catalog/charts/digital/daicd that contains the latitude and longitude of all navigation aids and put in the lat long of the localizer as a user identified waypoint and use an approach plate's description of the end of the runway from that localizer to provide end of runway location. A minor technicallity is to realize that the DME antenna is not co located with the localizer antenna. Instead the DME antenna is usually installed on the nearby electronics shack that feeds the localizer antenna. Since there are normally just a few yards between the electronic shack supporting the DME antenna and the localizer antenna, that distance difference is of no significance if one is using the localizer antenna lat long location as also being the DME antenna location. OC AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com In a message dated 11/19/2005 12:51:17 P.M. Central Standard Time, bakerocb@cox.net writes: <> Good Afternoon OC, All that you say is consistent with my understanding of the system, but It may be helpful for folks to realize that you CAN select the site of the localizer associated DME transceiver. That is very helpful when shooting an ILS or localizer approach because all waypoints along that course will be delineated by that DME site. For the original Garmin units, that site can be found in the waypoint section listed under the associated identifier. As an example, at Rockford Illinois (KRFD) LOC (BACK CRS) Rwy 19 approach, the DME site will have IRFD as the identifier of the waypoint. I am not sure how they are handling the 480. When it was an UPSAT unit, they had that waypoint on a dedicated page for such locations. In any case, the localizer associated DME site will always use the same four letter identifier as the approach being executed. The difficulty using airport identifier delineated waypoints (Airport Reference Point) is that it is difficult to find where that point is at many airports. Jeppesen posts them on the airport view at some, but not all, airports as the ARP. NACO rarely lists them at all other than giving the long/lat. Happy Skies, Old Bob ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:13:28 PM PST US From: DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com Subject: Re: Avionics-List: GPS IFR requirements --> Avionics-List message posted by: DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com Thanks. I have a question for Mr. Archer. DP ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:14:01 PM PST US From: DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com Subject: Re: Avionics-List: GPS IFR requirements --> Avionics-List message posted by: DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com Thanks, but I am going to use the bent whip for comms. DP ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:42:52 PM PST US From: Subject: Avionics-List: Re: GPS IFR requirements INNOCENT GLOBAL 0.4999 1.0000 0.0000 --> Avionics-List message posted by: 11/20/2005 Hello Bill, Thanks for your quick response copied below. Unfortunately I think that the instructor you referred to gave you some facts jumbled in with some unsupported opinion BS. There appears to be three issues involved here. They are aerobatic testing, major modification testing, and IFR testing. 1) Regarding aerobatic testing here is what FAA Order 8130.2F currently says should go into the Operating Limitations and what the builder pilot must do: "(15) This aircraft is prohibited from aerobatic flight, that is, an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in the aircraft's attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration not necessary for normal flight. NOTE: If the builder states that the aircraft is capable of aerobatic flight, limitation 16 will be used in lieu of limitation 15. (16) This aircraft may conduct aerobatic flight in accordance with the provisions of 91.303. Aerobatics must not be attempted until sufficient flight experience has been gained to establish that the aircraft is satisfactorily controllable and in compliance with 91.319(b). The aircraft may only conduct those aerobatic flight maneuvers that have been satisfactorily accomplished during flight testing and recorded in the aircraft maintenance records by use of the following, or a similarly worded, statement: "I certify that the following aerobatic maneuvers have been test flown and that the aircraft is controllable throughout the maneuvers' normal range of speeds, and is safe for operation. The flight-tested aerobatic maneuvers are _________, _________, __________, and __________." NOTE: Aerobatic flights may be permitted in the assigned test area. The applicant should be advised that aerobatics or violent maneuvers should not be attempted until sufficient flight experience has been gained to establish that the aircraft is satisfactorily controllable. These operating limitations may be modified to include only those aerobatics/maneuvers that have been satisfactorily accomplished and recorded in the aircraft records during the flight test period. These aerobatic maneuvers should be permitted upon leaving the assigned test area. Appropriate limitations identifying the aerobatics/maneuvers and conditions under which they may be performed should be prescribed. The FAA may witness aerobatic maneuvers if deemed necessary." That should cover the issue of ".....skip.....you had to perform all the manuvers in the test phase that you were going to use in the 'grown up airplane' phase." The instructor was correct for aerobatic testing. 2) Regarding major modification testing here is what FAA Order 8130.2F currently says should go into the Operating Limitations and what the builder pilot must do: "(19) After incorporating a major change as described in 21.93, the aircraft owner is required to reestablish compliance with 91.319(b) and notify the geographically responsible FSDO of the location of the proposed test area. The aircraft owner must obtain concurrence from the FSDO as to the suitability of the proposed test area. If the major change includes installing a different type of engine (reciprocating to turbine) or a change of a fixed-pitch from or to a controllable propeller, the aircraft owner must fill out a revised Form 8130-6 to update the aircraft's file in the FAA Aircraft Registry. All operations must be conducted under day VFR conditions in a sparsely populated area. The aircraft must remain in flight test for a minimum of 5 hours. The FSDO may require additional time (more than 5 hours) depending on the extent of the modification. Persons nonessential to the flight must not be carried. The aircraft owner must make a detailed logbook entry describing the change before the test flight. Following satisfactory completion of the required number of flight hours in the flight test area, the pilot must certify in the records that the aircraft has been shown to comply with 91.319(b). Compliance with 91.319(b) must be recorded in the aircraft records with the following, or a similarly worded, statement: "I certify that the prescribed flight test hours have been completed and the aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all maneuvers to be executed, has no hazardous characteristics or design features, and is safe foroperation. The following aircraft operating data has been demonstrated during the flight testing:speeds Vso ______, Vx ______, and Vy ______, and the weight ______, and CG location ______ at which they were obtained."" The instructor was correct to the extent that there is a requirement for reentering the test phase, but that requirement exists only after a major modification to the aircraft. 3) Regarding IFR testing here is what FAA Order 8130.2F currently says should go into the Operating Limitations and what the builder pilot must do: "(8) After completion of phase I flight testing, unless appropriately equipped for night and/or instrument flight in accordance with 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under VFR, day only." That is it. As you can see the instructor's position regarding required instrument flight testing is not supported by the pertinent basic documents. But any rational builder-pilot should make every reasonable effort to properly equip and test his airplane for IFR flight, if that is his goal, and to comply with the appropriate provisions of the AIM and relevant Advisory Circulars. Not because the FAA has set up the administrative machinery to force him to do so, but because it is in his, and the amateur builder's community, best interest to do so. OC ----- Original Message ----- From: "William" Subject: Re: GPS IFR requirements >I took the Sport air course on test flying your project, and I believe the >statement was that you had to perform all the manuvers in the test phase >that you were going to use in the 'grown up airplane' phase. i.e. if you >are going to do loops, you must do a loop in the test phase and state that >in your list of things done. When asked about IFR and the fact that you >can't have a safety pilot along, the instructor stated that you 'do the >ILS' under VFR conditions, verifying that the equipment does what it is >supposed to do. > At a separte point, i asked if you wanted to extend a performance point, > and he stated that you take it back to test phase, do the tests, and then > bring it out. > Bill Schertz KIS Cruiser # 4045