Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:44 AM - Interest in new EFIS/EMS (Mickey Coggins)
2. 07:22 AM - Re: Interest in new EFIS/EMS (John Rippengal)
3. 08:07 AM - Re: Interest in new EFIS/EMS (John Schroeder)
4. 09:40 AM - The List of Contributors Coming Soon - Make Sure You're Listed! (Matt Dralle)
5. 12:27 PM - Re: Interest in new EFIS/EMS (AI Nut)
6. 07:51 PM - Re: Interest in new EFIS/EMS (Tom Brusehaver)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Interest in new EFIS/EMS |
--> Avionics-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
Hi Dan,
I think you will have a lot of people interested in this
system if you can create it. One thing I would strongly
recommend is that you either get an IFR rating or spend
a lot of time with people that fly IFR to try to understand
those requirements as well.
I also assume that you are looking at the current glass
panels that are out there. For the homebuilt market,
that means Dynon, GRT Avionics, Blue Mountain, Chelton,
and some others. There's also the Avidyne and the Garmin
G1000.
>
> - A good sunlight-readable display is paramount - perhaps a
> transreflective display (or whatever technology is appropriate by
> then). Likely 10 inch.
Try as hard as you can to de-couple the display from the
rest of the system. This will allow you to take advantage
of changes here without a complete system re-design. Also,
in some aircraft, they will want 12", and others will only
have room for 8". You get the idea. Additionally, some
may want two screens with the exact same info. Imagine
a tandem aircraft, like my RV8. :)
> - The processing equipment will be housed in a separate box from the
> display
Good idea.
> - For stability, reliability, and performance, it won't be running
> anything like Windows. Probably a variant of BSD customized for the
> purpose, flash memory based (no moving hard drives or something
> similar to fail)
Another good idea.
> - An external watchdog timer would be implemented to automatically
> restart the system if it were to fail for any reason
My unix boxes rarely crash. Actually, it's been years since my
last unix box crashes, so not sure how important this is, but it's
easy to do.
> - An internal rechargeable battery would power the unit (and attached
> sensors) if desired when the avionics bus is off, or if there is a
> power system failure on the aircraft
Good idea.
> - CPU and associated hardware would be a ruggedized embedded system/
> single board computer with extended temperature operating range (-40
> Celsius to +50 Celsius)
Good idea.
> - GPS (perhaps with RAIM) would be integrated into the unit
Mandatory, I think.
> - flight display would include airspeed, altitude, VSI, attitude,
> gyro-stabilized magnetic compass, turn coordinator, angle of attack,
> G meter, clock, timer, moving map (with various displays, including
> high resolution terrain and associated warnings, engine out glide
> cones, etc), nearest airport lists, etc. Will be able to
> automatically determine things like density altitude, pressure
> altitude, TAS, true wind vectors, etc.)
Yep.
> - ability to control com/nav units that provide compatibility through
> a serial port.
Good stuff.
> - engine management capabilities would include tachometer, manifold
> pressure, voltmeter, ammeter, oil pressure, oil temperature, fuel
> pressure, fuel flow and quantity (with range calculation), CHT, and EGT.
Make provisions for multiple voltmeters and ammeters, since people
who fly "electric" airplanes usually have several buses.
> - sensors would include solid state gyros for attitude and
> accelerometers mounted in the processing unit, and an external
> magnetometer.
Good.
> - would have serial, analog, and digital ports for interfacing with
> other devices, and USB port for upgrades. You could connect it to
> lots of external sensors (switches to sense cabin door positions,
> gear up or down, flap position, etc.) to be able to display the
> status of the aircraft at a glance, and allow the unit to alert you
> if anything is wrong. Where possible and practical, opto-isolation
> or current limiting devices would be used to isolate external sensing
> circuitry so that something like a short in the wires to one sensor
> doesn't cause problems for the unit as a whole.
Good stuff.
> - Would provide altitude encoder output for transponders.
Parallel and serial output would be good, for those of us that
have the "old fashioned" parallel transponders.
> - would be capable of other "non-flight" features, like weight and
> balance calculations, "smart" user-definable checklists (appropriate
> checklists would be quickly accessible based on the condition the
> system considers the aircraft to currently be in), etc.
These are good, but i really wonder how many people would use it.
I usually do the W&B type stuff before I get in the aircraft.
Checklists are of course very useful.
> - ability to set green, yellow, and red "zones" for acceptable values
> for any parameter, with or without audio cues. For example, the unit
> could be set to pop up warnings (visually and/or auditory) if oil
> pressure drops too low, or if you are inadvertently deviating from an
> assigned altitude. The limits, as well as the parameters to monitor
> in this way would be defined by the pilot
Audio feedback, fully configurable, would be great.
> - it has to have a simple user interface that just "makes sense",
> trying to be as "intuitive" as possible based on the conditions of
> the plane as to the sorts of things you are likely to want to do.
Be sure to make this fully customizable, since what makes sense
to me might not make sense to you. Also, you get a lot of guys
that fly the Airbus, and the GUI there is quite a bit different
from the new Boeings. Also, you'll have guys that have an
Avidyne or Garmin G1000 in their certified "family plane", and
your system in their "sports car" plane. It's good if they can
have as much in common as possible.
> - external ports for pitot and static lines, as well as GPS antenna,
> It would also provide serial ports for control of compatible radios,
> transponder, etc.
Good.
> - the system would be continually determining position, velocity, and
> acceleration in the 3 linear, as well as the 3 rotational axes. If
> anything doesn't pass sanity checks (traveling too fast, too slow, or
> too high for your plane's capabilities, if there are sudden
> discontinuities in position or velocity, etc, or if pitot/static
> sensing doesn't match GPS or gyro and accelerometer calculations
> within a reasonable percentage, it would flag a warning to alert you
> of the potential unreliability. The good thing is that with three
> methods of sensing critical things like altitude and airspeed (pilot/
> static, GPS, and accelerometer/gyros), the system in many cases
> should be able to determine which components have failed and fall
> back on the remaining two methods to continue to operate).
Good.
> - since the screen is large enough, the pilot could switch from
> several customized displays, showing different elements individually
> or partitioned off into different virtual windows (of course, if
> there was a failure or anomaly in any system, or exceeding limits in
> a sensor, it would show a special pop-up display of the problem until
> it's fixed or the alert dismissed)
More good stuff.
>
> And if that weren't enough, I intend on bundling two separate
> computers in the same chassis (both tied into the same set of
> sensors), with separate A/D converters, etc. They would communicate
> state of the aircraft information continually between each other,
> each independently (hopefully) arriving at a similar result. If they
> disagreed with one another by more than a certain tolerance level (or
> if their companion stops working and no longer is transmitting status
> data), again, a warning would be displayed to that effect. The
> capability would be there to switch the display to show the output
> from either computer if one starts to act up for any reason. And the
> side benefit is that with two completely redundant machines, it would
> be trivial to drive two independent displays in the cockpit, so you
> could have, for example, the primary flight display on the pilot's
> side, with engine instruments and moving map on the copilot's side,
> or whatever you like. Of course, a second display would be optional
> - but the capability would be there.
This would be great, but I think that the two computer idea is
probably overkill for this type of installation. For the kind
of reliability that you get with today's hardware, most of us
will be happy to just have one computer, and a send independent
backup, like a little dynon, or just out autopilot.
>
> In short, I want it all :-) I know it sounds like a Christmas wish
> list ('tis getting to be the season :-), but since I'll be building
> this myself I can make it do whatever seems useful or interesting to
> do. As I said, I'm years away from having anything to show for my
> plans, but I thought I'd put a (very) early word out. As I said, I'd
> be primarily developing this for my own use, but does anyone else out
> there think they might be interested in such a system? Obviously, I
> don't assume anyone would be committing to anything (I wouldn't even
> myself until it got much closer to fruition). But if there is an
> interest, and I've missed on something that someone would find
> useful, I'm all ears - this is the perfect time. And perhaps more to
> the point, if this thing turns out to be as great as I'm planning,
> how much would you be willing to pay for one?
I'm personally going to buy a GRT Sport, which runs about $3k.
I would really prefer something with a much larger screen,
like the BMA EFIS/1, but I've read too many horror stories
about getting that thing working correctly. I want something
that I *know* will work out of the box. I'm sure there will
be more boxes on the market in the future that do a lot, like the
one you are proposing, for a good price.
Good luck, and please keep us posted!
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
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| Subject: | Re: Interest in new EFIS/EMS |
--> Avionics-List message posted by: "John Rippengal" <j.rippengal@cytanet.com.cy>
That's a very ambitious project Dan. One tiny suggestion is to make the
engine sensors connect to a remote box in the engine compartment with only a
serial connection, ground and stabilised power supply coming from the main
unit. Panel wiring and connectors become a nightmare with the normal loom
especially with the 16 thermocouple leads.
John
From: "Dan Charrois" <danlist@syz.com>
>
> Hi everyone. First of all, let me say that this is still years away
> from happening. But I thought I'd put a bit of a feeler out now anyway.
>
> I'm thinking of developing an "all-in-one" glass cockpit. You'd
> ...................................
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| Subject: | Re: Interest in new EFIS/EMS |
--> Avionics-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@perigee.net>
Hello Dan -
This is really an admirable project and I do envy your abilities and
resources in the electronics domain. I'm a stoneage tinkerer at best in
this field of seemingly endless potential. The following are my thoughts
on your idea.
If it is for yourself, go for it and keep us posted. However,
If you think you would want to sell the airplane at sometime in the
future, it may be difficult because the design and "what you want it to
do" may be very non-standard - to the extent that very few pilots would
want to buy and learn a "one of .." system. There would not be any
"experience" base (multiple opinions and reviews) from which to draw
knowledge - either for flying it or more importantly for maintenance
support. Examples are: (1) if it is a proprietary database can I update it
when required (IFR cycle?) (2) At what cost for the update? (3) If there
is an AHRS, where would one get it repaired or a replacement if it goes
down? etc. In other words, there is no "installed base" from which to draw
comfort, maintenance support and perspective.
If you eventually decide to sell the product, I believe that you will have
to bring others into the process by soliciting design goals and to achieve
a modicum of standardization with what is on the market. At this point,
you will begin to lose the conformity with your main criterion: "do what I
want it to do". For a flavor of what this process is, sign on to the Blue
Mountain Avionics web site and read some of the early commentary,
especially in the R&D section. There are many ideas offered and the
majority have their beginnings in what pilots have already experienced or
know about re glass cockpits. There are also some far-out ideas that I'm
glad did not see the light of day. If you do not implement some of the
mainline ideas, you will narrow the population of potential buyers. Oh by
the way... If it does not have a mini keyboard for entering data, I don't
want it. :-)) Twirling concentric knobs to enter data is the pits, IMHO.
So now you have a possible design goal.
Good luck on the project and keep us posted. It may become the "IPOD" of
the experimental glass cockpit and I'd buy one. And, maybe some of us
lurkers would buy some stock. <grin>
Cheers,
John
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 21:23:01 -0700, Dan Charrois <danlist@syz.com> wrote:
> As a result, the decision to develop my own
> EFIS/EMS was pretty much made right from the get-go. Though I plan
> on doing so for 1. The sheer enjoyment of it, and 2. To make it do
> exactly what I'd like it to do, I thought I'd post a note here to see
> if there are any others who may be interested in something like this
> as well.
--
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| Subject: | The List of Contributors Coming Soon - Make Sure You're |
Listed!
--> Avionics-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
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| Subject: | Re: Interest in new EFIS/EMS |
--> Avionics-List message posted by: AI Nut <ainut@hiwaay.net>
Dan, illegitimi non carborundum!
I'm doing the same thing and am nearly through with the design and
working on the software.
I still don't have a source for:
1. strain gauges
2. affordable AHRS reference
3. 3 axis accelerometers, although Analog Devices is really strong here,
4, stepper or other motors for autopilot muscle.
I have:
1. 17 inch LCD screen, mounted so it will pivot out of the way to see
installed steam gauges
2. 4 EGT,
3. 4 CHT,
4. circuits for normalization and calibration of temp thermocouples and
0-5v outputs,
5. airspeed,
6, altitude (both pressure and GPS),
7. turbo and manifold absolute pressures,
8. OAT,
9. engine coolant temp,
10 oil temp.
Software still under development:
1. highway in the sky,
2. autopilot,
3. terrain avoidance,
4. airspace and location depiction in OpenGL 3D,
5. full engine monitoring, including above sensors
Most of all, it is tremendous FUN!
It's all going into a Ford engine in a Mustang II.
David M.
John Schroeder wrote:
>--> Avionics-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@perigee.net>
>
>Hello Dan -
>
>This is really an admirable project and I do envy your abilities and
>resources in the electronics domain. I'm a stoneage tinkerer at best in
>this field of seemingly endless potential. The following are my thoughts
>on your idea.
>
>If it is for yourself, go for it and keep us posted. However,
>
>If you think you would want to sell the airplane at sometime in the
>future, it may be difficult because the design and "what you want it to
>do" may be very non-standard - to the extent that very few pilots would
>want to buy and learn a "one of .." system. There would not be any
>"experience" base (multiple opinions and reviews) from which to draw
>knowledge - either for flying it or more importantly for maintenance
>support. Examples are: (1) if it is a proprietary database can I update it
>when required (IFR cycle?) (2) At what cost for the update? (3) If there
>is an AHRS, where would one get it repaired or a replacement if it goes
>down? etc. In other words, there is no "installed base" from which to draw
>comfort, maintenance support and perspective.
>
>If you eventually decide to sell the product, I believe that you will have
>to bring others into the process by soliciting design goals and to achieve
>a modicum of standardization with what is on the market. At this point,
>you will begin to lose the conformity with your main criterion: "do what I
>want it to do". For a flavor of what this process is, sign on to the Blue
>Mountain Avionics web site and read some of the early commentary,
>especially in the R&D section. There are many ideas offered and the
>majority have their beginnings in what pilots have already experienced or
>know about re glass cockpits. There are also some far-out ideas that I'm
>glad did not see the light of day. If you do not implement some of the
>mainline ideas, you will narrow the population of potential buyers. Oh by
>the way... If it does not have a mini keyboard for entering data, I don't
>want it. :-)) Twirling concentric knobs to enter data is the pits, IMHO.
>So now you have a possible design goal.
>
>Good luck on the project and keep us posted. It may become the "IPOD" of
>the experimental glass cockpit and I'd buy one. And, maybe some of us
>lurkers would buy some stock. <grin>
>
>Cheers,
>
>John
>
>
>On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 21:23:01 -0700, Dan Charrois <danlist@syz.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>As a result, the decision to develop my own
>>EFIS/EMS was pretty much made right from the get-go. Though I plan
>>on doing so for 1. The sheer enjoyment of it, and 2. To make it do
>>exactly what I'd like it to do, I thought I'd post a note here to see
>>if there are any others who may be interested in something like this
>>as well.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Interest in new EFIS/EMS |
--> Avionics-List message posted by: "Tom Brusehaver" <cozytom@mn.rr.com>
There used to be a site:
http://openefis.org
All weekend I can't get to it, so I don't know if
it is just down, or if it is permanently off line.
There used to also be:
http://autopilot.sourceforge.net/
And again I am getting sql errors from sourceforge
so it could be a holiday weekend thing.
The autopilot shows a lot of information about
gyros, and other hardware.
On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 14:27:32 -0600, AI Nut <ainut@hiwaay.net> wrote:
> --> Avionics-List message posted by: AI Nut <ainut@hiwaay.net>
>
> Dan, illegitimi non carborundum!
>
> I'm doing the same thing and am nearly through with the design and
> working on the software.
>
> I still don't have a source for:
> 1. strain gauges
> 2. affordable AHRS reference
> 3. 3 axis accelerometers, although Analog Devices is really strong here,
> 4, stepper or other motors for autopilot muscle.
>
> I have:
> 1. 17 inch LCD screen, mounted so it will pivot out of the way to see
> installed steam gauges
> 2. 4 EGT,
> 3. 4 CHT,
> 4. circuits for normalization and calibration of temp thermocouples and
> 0-5v outputs,
> 5. airspeed,
> 6, altitude (both pressure and GPS),
> 7. turbo and manifold absolute pressures,
> 8. OAT,
> 9. engine coolant temp,
> 10 oil temp.
>
> Software still under development:
> 1. highway in the sky,
> 2. autopilot,
> 3. terrain avoidance,
> 4. airspace and location depiction in OpenGL 3D,
> 5. full engine monitoring, including above sensors
>
> Most of all, it is tremendous FUN!
>
> It's all going into a Ford engine in a Mustang II.
>
> David M.
>
>
> John Schroeder wrote:
>
>> --> Avionics-List message posted by: "John Schroeder"
>> <jschroeder@perigee.net>
>>
>> Hello Dan -
>>
>> This is really an admirable project and I do envy your abilities and
>> resources in the electronics domain. I'm a stoneage tinkerer at best in
>> this field of seemingly endless potential. The following are my thoughts
>> on your idea.
>>
>> If it is for yourself, go for it and keep us posted. However,
>>
>> If you think you would want to sell the airplane at sometime in the
>> future, it may be difficult because the design and "what you want it to
>> do" may be very non-standard - to the extent that very few pilots would
>> want to buy and learn a "one of .." system. There would not be any
>> "experience" base (multiple opinions and reviews) from which to draw
>> knowledge - either for flying it or more importantly for maintenance
>> support. Examples are: (1) if it is a proprietary database can I update
>> it
>> when required (IFR cycle?) (2) At what cost for the update? (3) If there
>> is an AHRS, where would one get it repaired or a replacement if it goes
>> down? etc. In other words, there is no "installed base" from which to
>> draw
>> comfort, maintenance support and perspective.
>>
>> If you eventually decide to sell the product, I believe that you will
>> have
>> to bring others into the process by soliciting design goals and to
>> achieve
>> a modicum of standardization with what is on the market. At this point,
>> you will begin to lose the conformity with your main criterion: "do
>> what I
>> want it to do". For a flavor of what this process is, sign on to the
>> Blue
>> Mountain Avionics web site and read some of the early commentary,
>> especially in the R&D section. There are many ideas offered and the
>> majority have their beginnings in what pilots have already experienced
>> or
>> know about re glass cockpits. There are also some far-out ideas that I'm
>> glad did not see the light of day. If you do not implement some of the
>> mainline ideas, you will narrow the population of potential buyers. Oh
>> by
>> the way... If it does not have a mini keyboard for entering data, I
>> don't
>> want it. :-)) Twirling concentric knobs to enter data is the pits, IMHO.
>> So now you have a possible design goal.
>>
>> Good luck on the project and keep us posted. It may become the "IPOD" of
>> the experimental glass cockpit and I'd buy one. And, maybe some of us
>> lurkers would buy some stock. <grin>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 21:23:01 -0700, Dan Charrois <danlist@syz.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> As a result, the decision to develop my own
>>> EFIS/EMS was pretty much made right from the get-go. Though I plan
>>> on doing so for 1. The sheer enjoyment of it, and 2. To make it do
>>> exactly what I'd like it to do, I thought I'd post a note here to see
>>> if there are any others who may be interested in something like this
>>> as well.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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