Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:36 AM - Re: IFR Requirements/Ambiguity ()
2. 02:13 PM - Re: Re: IFR Requirements/Ambiguity (TeamGrumman@aol.com)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: IFR Requirements/Ambiguity |
INNOCENT GLOBAL 0.4620 1.0000 0.0000
--> Avionics-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox.net>
12/31/2005
Hello Ken Thomas (Virken), Thank you for a very interesting email (copied
below).
I will attempt to answer in pieces, but let me start with a summary answer:
"As long as your amateur built experimental aircraft is in compliance with
its Operating Limitations (which includes references to complying with
FAR's) and the instructions in the current version of the AIM you are legal
to fly IFR with no further aircraft approval or paperwork from the FAA."
<<1) You wrote: "In reading the airworthiness certificate and the airframe
sign-off from the
FSDO, I see no verbiage like you listed below in "Operating Limitations".
The signoff simply says the FSDO issued an "...experimental Airworthiness
Certificate in the Amateur Built category, in accordance with FAR
21.191(g)..." So I'm wondering...1. is something missing, or am I "good to
go" as you indicated below that a specific signoff for IFR is
unnecessary">>
Something may be missing. By "airframe sign-off" do you mean the entry in
the aircraft log book that is made by the inspector at the time of the
initial inspection? If that is all that you have in addition to the pink
original FAA Form 8130-7 Special Airworthiness Certificate then you are
missing the Operating Limitations portion of the Special Airworthiness
Certificate that should have accompanied the original Form 8130-7
certificate when it was issued.
If in fact the Operating Limitations for your aircraft is missing you should
try to obtain a copy from either the person you bought the airplane from or
the FSDO that issued the orginal airworthiness certificate. Both the Form
8130-7 Certificate and the Operating Limitations, which is considered part
of the certificate, are to be carried in the aircraft at all times.
If you have the Operating Limitations, but paragraph 7 regarding "day VFR
only unless appropriately equipped in accordance with 91.205" is missing
then I don't see any prohibition against IFR flight for your aircraft if it
is properly equipped. I say this because the FARs are written in prohibition
form "...no person may unless xxxxxx" rather than permissable form. If
something is not prohibited then its OK to do it.
A specific "IFR signoff" for your amateur built experimental aircraft is not
required.
<<2) You wrote: "2. there's also ambiguity around whether an "IFR Approach
Certified GPS" is
required for GPS approaches; I read the statement from the EAA and it wasn't
explicit, and it also noted that none of the equipment needs to be TSO'd.
Well, if that's the case, then why would you need a TSO'd IFR GPS (which I
believe is the only way they make them). Do you know the answer here?">>
You are beginning to mix together different issues above. Let me try to sort
them out.
<<"there's also ambiguity around whether an "IFR Approach Certified GPS" is
required for GPS approaches;">>
This issue is not related to whether the aircraft involved is type
certificated or an amateur built experimental. You can go to paragraph
1-1-19. d. of the current version of the AIM on the FAA web site and read
the requirements for yourself. No need to depend upon hearsay, rumor, or
gossip.
<<"I read the statement from the EAA and it wasn't explicit, and it also
noted that none of the equipment needs to be TSO'd.">>
Yes and no. Since there are no published certification standards for amateur
built experimental aircraft there is no need for installed equipment,
instruments, or avionics to meet FAA TSO requirements. That is true of most
items on an amateur built experimental aircraft, but, and this is a huge
but, there are certain items in any aircraft, type certificated or amateur
built experimental, that must interface with other aircraft or other parts
of the ATC system.
Some examples are transponders, ELTs, communication radios, and GPS. One is
permitted to have non FAA TSO'd equipment for these kinds of items, but the
regulations, the TSO itself, or AIM say in some cases that certain items
must comply with FAA TSO requirements. That means that you could go build
your own, but the FAA has the right to ask you to prove that it meets the
FAA TSO requirements. Since that would be a very demanding thing to do the
logical path for most people is to just buy and install a FAA TSO'd item for
those items that are specifically required to meet FAA TSO requirements. A
careful reading of the FARs or the AIM may be required to determine which
items fall into that category.
<<"Well, if that's the case, then why would you need a TSO'd IFR GPS (which
I
believe is the only way they make them). Do you know the answer here?">>
You need an FAA TSO'd IFR GPS, or a GPS that you can prove meets that FAA
TSO requirements for any aircraft, type certificated or amateur built
experimental, in order to fly IFR GPS because the AIM says that you do.
"AIM 1-1-19. d. General Requirements 1. Authorization to conduct any GPS
operation under IFR requires that: (a) GPS navigation equipment used must be
approved in accordance with the requirements specified in Technical Standard
Order (TSO) TSO-C129, or equivalent............."
OC
PS: What is a Virken? Sounds like it might be related to the Gherkin pickle.
----- Original Message -----
From: "ken thomas" <virken@hotmail.com>
Subject: IFR Requirements/Ambiguity
> Hello OC,
>
> I read with interest your post (reproduced below) re. equipping an
> experimental aircraft for IFR application, and I'm hoping you can help to
> resolve some remaining ambiguity. Thank you for giving it a shot :)
>
> I purchased a completed Glastar experimental aircraft equipped with a
> navcom and indicator making it suitable for vor/localizer approaches, and
> I added marker beacons/audio panel, a 2nd navcom, and a Lowrance GPS. It
> also has a full compliment of steam gauges and other systems required for
> IFR flight.
>
> In reading the airworthiness certificate and the airframe sign-off from
> the FSDO, I see no verbiage like you listed below in "Operating
> Limitations". The signoff simply says the FSDO issued an "...experimental
> Airworthiness Certificate in the Amateur Built category, in accordance
> with FAR 21.191(g)..."
>
> So I'm wondering...
> 1. is something missing, or am I "good to go" as you indicated below that
> a specific signoff for IFR is unnecessary
>
> 2. there's also ambiguity around whether an "IFR Approach Certified GPS"
> is required for GPS approaches; I read the statement from the EAA and it
> wasn't explicit, and it also noted that none of the equipment needs to be
> TSO'd. Well, if that's the case, then why would you need a TSO'd IFR GPS
> (which I believe is the only way they make them). Do you know the answer
> here?
>
> Thank you in advance for any clarity you can provide.
>
> Virken
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: IFR Requirements/Ambiguity |
--> Avionics-List message posted by: TeamGrumman@aol.com
In a message dated 12/31/05 7:38:16 AM, bakerocb@cox.net writes:
> "AIM 1-1-19. d. General Requirements 1. Authorization to conduct any GPS
> operation under IFR requires that: (a) GPS navigation equipment used must be
> approved in accordance with the requirements specified in Technical Standard
> Order (TSO) TSO-C129, or equivalent............."
>
I don't mean to be splitting hairs (well, maybe I do) but, since the AIM (and
the Advisory Circulars) are information only, and not federal regulations, is
it 'really' illegal to use a non-IFR approved GPS?
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|