---------------------------------------------------------- Avionics-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 01/04/07: 5 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:52 AM - Re: Re: 91.205 (WAAS) (RAS) 2. 06:17 AM - Re: 91.205 (WAAS) () 3. 07:37 AM - Re: Re: 91.205 (WAAS) (Wayne Sweet) 4. 10:38 AM - WAAS (CardinalNSB@aol.com) 5. 12:02 PM - Re: WAAS (David M.) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:52:42 AM PST US From: "RAS" Subject: Re: Avionics-List: Re: 91.205 (WAAS) Hi, apologies for butting in on this. We have a RV10 with full Garmin stack and have had quite some difficulty getting pin outs and ended up sending the units to an avionics shop to get wired. (we purchased without looms) I have since spoken to the main Garmin agent in the UK and he explained that due to complexity of the avionics Garmin does not encourage(read does not make available pinout)homebuilders to do their own wiring. This can well be where the snag is in this story. You buy Garmin with a manufactored loom which is tested for proper function and there's a degree of assured quality. This combined with addition of WAAS may make the difference of being able to certify for IFR operation in your experimental. It may also be a good idea to print a copy of 91.205 to hand over to your DAR if he doesn't sign willingly! :-) Marcel ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 4:56 AM Subject: Avionics-List: Re: 91.205 (WAAS) > > 1/3/2007 > > Hello Wayne, Good to hear from you. > > You wrote: "I've heard it said more than once that an amateur-built plane > cannot be flown IFR with just a GPS. It must also have the traditional > VOR and ILS (when needed) receivers on board. > They cite 91.205 and the requirement to have "...equipment on board > appropriate to the ***ground-based*** navaids to be used. Why do you think > experimentals are held to that when the standard certificated aircraft > (Mooneys, Pipers, etc) are now flying with WAAS GPSs > and nothing else? Why must me have the crappy, out-dated stuff on board > when the new avionics suites in the newer planes do not?" > > I do not agree with the statement "It (an ABEA (Amateur Built Experimental > Aircraft)) must > also have the traditional VOR and ILS (when needed) receivers on board." > > Here is why I do not agree with that statement: > > A) "The GNS 400/500 series have earned the FAAs TSO C146a Gamma-3 > certification, which enables pilots to fly Lateral-Precision with Vertical > (LPV) guidance approaches and receive GPS navigation via the Wide Area > Augmentation System (WAAS)." > > B) "Garmins GNS 400W/500W series meets the FAAs highest level of > certification for WAAS navigation. The units utilize satellite-based > navaids for precise lateral and vertical approach guidance similar to > Instrument Landing System (ILS) operations without the need for > ground-based navaids of any kind." > > C) "The WAAS system improves the accuracy, reliability and integrity of > the GPS signal. GPS-WAAS navigators that meet FAAs WAAS regulations may > be used for sole means of navigation* for all phases of flight, including > en route through precision approach at airports." > > These paragraph A, B, and C quotes are from a Garmin press release, see > copy below. > > D) The WAAS system does involve ground facilities despite what Garmin says > in B above. See http://gps.faa.gov/programs/index.htm for a description of > the WAAS that incorporates both WRS (Wide area Reference Stations) and a > WMS (WAAS Master Station) which are facilities located on the ground. > > Therefore an ABEA equipped with either a GNS 400W/500W, but no VHF > navigation equipment would be in compliance with its Operating > Limitations which requires compliance with FAR 91.205 (b), (c), and (d) > when operating IFR. Specifically the WAAS navigation equipment of that > aircraft would be in compliance with 91.205 (d) (2) which requires > "navigational equipment appropriate to the ground facilities to be used." > > I intend to upgrade my GNS 430 to 430W configuration, but I certainly > don't intend to fly IFR if my VHF nav equipment is not operating. > Obviously when flying an ILS approach one must have funcioning localizer > and glideslope equipment on board. And similarly when flying a published > approach that requires GPS / WAAS equipment then that equipment must be on > board and functioning. > > OC -- The best investment we will ever make is in gathering knowledge. > > > ------------------------ GARMIN PRESS RELEASE FOLLOWS -------------- > November 9, 2006 > Garmin Receives WAAS Certification for GNS 400W/500W series > OLATHE, Kansas/November 9, 2006/PR Newswire Garmin International, a unit > of Garmin Ltd. (Nasdaq: GRMN), today announced the achievement of a major > aviation milestone at the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA) > Expo in Palm Springs, CA. The GNS 400/500 series have earned the FAAs TSO > C146a Gamma-3 certification, which enables pilots to fly Lateral-Precision > with Vertical (LPV) guidance approaches and receive GPS navigation via the > Wide Area Augmentation System (WAAS). The FAA also granted AML (approved > model list) STC approval allowing the 400W/500W equipment to be installed > on over 980 popular makes and models of aircraft. The GNS 400/500W series > joins the G1000 and GNS 480 in providing WAAS enabled navigation for > aircraft. Garmin currently offers more WAAS solutions than any other > avionics provider. > "This is a great day for Garmin and the aviation industry," said Gary > Kelley, Garmins vice president of marketing. "Since the FAA commissioned > WAAS in 2003, there has been an enormous demand for WAAS certified > equipment in the marketplace. We are pleased to announce that all 75,000 > Garmin GNS 400/500 series products currently in the field can upgrade to > WAAS. We expect the number of WAAS equipped aircraft to increase quickly, > and pilots will be able to operate to and from airports that would > otherwise be unavailable to them in marginal weather." > Thanks to the certification and AML STC approval, owners of Garmins > popular GNS 400/500 series panel-mount avionics will be able to upgrade > their products to meet the FAAs WAAS standards* without a field > approval**. These upgrades include 5 Hz position updates, faster map > redraws, fully coupled and guided procedure turns and holding patterns, > and increased XM weather content. Pilots will also experience > significantly enhanced functionality because of the WAAS LPV, LNAV/VNAV, > LNAV+V, and LNAV approach capabilities. > Garmins GNS 400W/500W series meets the FAAs highest level of > certification for WAAS navigation. The units utilize satellite-based > navaids for precise lateral and vertical approach guidance similar to > Instrument Landing System (ILS) operations without the need for > ground-based navaids of any kind. The Gamma-3 level of certification lets > pilots fly the FAAs new LPV approaches. The FAA has already published > over 600 LPV and 5,500 WAAS approach procedures. > The WAAS system improves the accuracy, reliability and integrity of the > GPS signal. GPS-WAAS navigators that meet FAAs WAAS regulations may be > used for sole means of navigation* for all phases of flight, including en > route through precision approach at airports. With WAAS LPV approaches, > pilots will have stabilized lateral and vertical navigation and will be > able to navigate as low as 200 feet above the runway end under instrument > flight rules. > Garmins panel mount avionics have been installed on nearly three-fourths > of all U.S. single and twin-engine piston and turbine aircraft retrofitted > since 2000. The company strives continually to raise-the-bar in the > avionics industry, and two years ago at the 2004 AOPA Expo Garmins GNS > 480 was the first GPS navigator in the industry to earn a TSO C146a > Gamma-3 certification. > Garmin expects deliveries of the new GNS 430W and GNS 530W to begin in > about 30 days with upgrades beginning in January 2007. Upgrades are > available for a suggested retail price of $1,500. Pilots who do not > currently own Garmin 400/500 series equipment and are in the process of > upgrading their avionics, will be able to purchase new GNS 430W and GNS > 530W units for $10,750 and $16,495, respectively. Visit www.garmin.com for > additional information or a complete list of authorized Garmin dealers. > *Due to the TSO limitation in conjunction with the AFMS limitation, Garmins > GNS 400/500 series navigators will not be certified as a "primary means" > of GPS navigation until after customers install a new software version. > Garmin expects to issue a Service Bulletin in the first quarter of 2007 > issuing the software. The software will be updated via the 400/500W data > loader card. This required software update is expected to be available in > the first quarter of 2007. > **The AML STC data is intended to provide complete FAA approved data for a > large subset of CAR3/FAR23 aircraft; however, if the aircraft does not > pre-qualify for the AML STC standards, additional means of airworthiness > approval will be required. > > ------------------------ END OF GARMIN PRESS RELEASE ------------------ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Hicks, Wayne" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 3:02 PM > Subject: 91.205 > > >> OC: >> >> Happy New Year to you! >> >> Can you help me to understand something? I've heard it said more than >> once >> that an amateur-built plane cannot be flown IFR with just a GPS. It must >> also have the traditional VOR and ILS (when needed) receivers on board. >> They cite 91.205 and the requirement to have "...equipment on board >> appropriate to the ***ground-based*** navaids to be used." >> >> Why do you think experimentals are held to that when the standard >> certificated aircraft (Mooneys, Pipers, etc) are now flying with WAAS >> GPSs >> and nothing else? Why must me have the crappy, out-dated stuff on board >> when the new avionics suites in the newer planes do not? >> >> I got asked this question from my Cozy builders group. About the only >> answer I can come up with is (1) the manufacturer proved the nav >> capabilities of the airplane's capabilities as part of its type >> certification process; and (2) The FAA is not in the business of >> certifying >> the on-board nav capabilities of everyone's home-built airplane. So the >> FAA >> makes us use their nav system. >> >> How close am I? >> >> =================== >> L. Wayne Hicks >> Senior Engineer >> Zel Technologies, LLC >> 757-325-1282 phone >> wayne.hicks@zeltech.com >> http://www.zeltech.com > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:17:26 AM PST US From: Subject: Avionics-List: Re: 91.205 (WAAS) 01/04/2007 Hello Wayne, Thanks for your quick response. I wrote: " Therefore an ABEA equipped with either a GNS 400W/500W, but no VHF navigation equipment would be in compliance with its Operating Limitations which requires compliance with FAR 91.205 (b), (c), and (d) when operating IFR. Specifically the WAAS navigation equipment of that aircraft would be in compliance with 91.205 (d) (2) which requires "navigational equipment appropriate to the ground facilities to be used." And you wrote: "I wish we could somehow train the DAR and ABEA communities to accept this." I don't agree with the concept of required acceptance by a DAR or FAA inspector during an initial airworthiness inspection of an ABEA's (Amateur Built Experimental Aircraft's) avionics suite configuration and eventual use of that ABEA in IFR flight . The inspector is not in a position to pass judgement on such future IFR employment of the aircraft or enforce equipment provisions for that future employment. Instead the inspector places such judgement and future responsibility for compliance with FAR's and the AIM equipment requirements on the builder / pilot by the wording of that ABEA's Operating Limitations. To whit: After completion of Phase I flight testing, unless appropriately equipped for night and/or instrument flight in accordance with 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under VFR, day only. I suppose it is possible that an FAA ramp inspector after an IFR flight, or an investigation after an incident, could conclude that an ABEA equipped with only 146 TSO'd compliant WAAS equipment was in violation of minimum IFR navigation equipment requirements, but that is not my interpretation of the words available to me. OC -- The best investment we will ever make is in gathering knowledge. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hicks, Wayne" Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 8:05 AM Subject: RE: 91.205 (WAAS) >I wish we could somehow train the DAR and ABEA communities to accept this. > > =================== > L. Wayne Hicks > Senior Engineer > Zel Technologies, LLC > 757-325-1282 phone > wayne.hicks@zeltech.com > http://www.zeltech.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:37:14 AM PST US From: "Wayne Sweet" Subject: Re: Avionics-List: Re: 91.205 (WAAS) There is another solution; Fast Stack from Approach Systems. They do the wiring, provide the "hub", builder provides the ground and power to each unit. Simple and when avionics changes are made, Approach systems will provide the new harness (~$90) for the new unit to the hub. I first wired my GNS430, PMA6000 audio panel, Terra NAV/COM, marker beacon, (and more); took two months. Then on auto pilot upgrade, went with the Fast Stack. Love it. Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: "RAS" Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 1:51 AM Subject: Re: Avionics-List: Re: 91.205 (WAAS) > > > Hi, > > apologies for butting in on this. We have a RV10 with full Garmin stack > and have had quite some difficulty getting pin outs and ended up sending > the units to an avionics shop to get wired. (we purchased without looms) > I have since spoken to the main Garmin agent in the UK and he explained > that due to complexity of the avionics Garmin does not encourage(read does > not make available pinout)homebuilders to do their own wiring. > > This can well be where the snag is in this story. You buy Garmin with a > manufactored loom which is tested for proper function and there's a degree > of assured quality. > This combined with addition of WAAS may make the difference of being able > to certify for IFR operation in your experimental. > It may also be a good idea to print a copy of 91.205 to hand over to your > DAR if he doesn't sign willingly! :-) > > Marcel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Hicks, Wayne" > Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 4:56 AM > Subject: Avionics-List: Re: 91.205 (WAAS) > > >> >> 1/3/2007 >> >> Hello Wayne, Good to hear from you. >> >> You wrote: "I've heard it said more than once that an amateur-built plane >> cannot be flown IFR with just a GPS. It must also have the traditional >> VOR and ILS (when needed) receivers on board. >> They cite 91.205 and the requirement to have "...equipment on board >> appropriate to the ***ground-based*** navaids to be used. Why do you >> think experimentals are held to that when the standard certificated >> aircraft (Mooneys, Pipers, etc) are now flying with WAAS GPSs >> and nothing else? Why must me have the crappy, out-dated stuff on board >> when the new avionics suites in the newer planes do not?" >> >> I do not agree with the statement "It (an ABEA (Amateur Built >> Experimental Aircraft)) must >> also have the traditional VOR and ILS (when needed) receivers on board." >> >> Here is why I do not agree with that statement: >> >> A) "The GNS 400/500 series have earned the FAAs TSO C146a Gamma-3 >> certification, which enables pilots to fly Lateral-Precision with >> Vertical (LPV) guidance approaches and receive GPS navigation via the >> Wide Area Augmentation System (WAAS)." >> >> B) "Garmins GNS 400W/500W series meets the FAAs highest level of >> certification for WAAS navigation. The units utilize satellite-based >> navaids for precise lateral and vertical approach guidance similar to >> Instrument Landing System (ILS) operations without the need for >> ground-based navaids of any kind." >> >> C) "The WAAS system improves the accuracy, reliability and integrity of >> the GPS signal. GPS-WAAS navigators that meet FAAs WAAS regulations may >> be used for sole means of navigation* for all phases of flight, including >> en route through precision approach at airports." >> >> These paragraph A, B, and C quotes are from a Garmin press release, see >> copy below. >> >> D) The WAAS system does involve ground facilities despite what Garmin >> says in B above. See http://gps.faa.gov/programs/index.htm for a >> description of the WAAS that incorporates both WRS (Wide area Reference >> Stations) and a WMS (WAAS Master Station) which are facilities located on >> the ground. >> >> Therefore an ABEA equipped with either a GNS 400W/500W, but no VHF >> navigation equipment would be in compliance with its Operating >> Limitations which requires compliance with FAR 91.205 (b), (c), and (d) >> when operating IFR. Specifically the WAAS navigation equipment of that >> aircraft would be in compliance with 91.205 (d) (2) which requires >> "navigational equipment appropriate to the ground facilities to be used." >> >> I intend to upgrade my GNS 430 to 430W configuration, but I certainly >> don't intend to fly IFR if my VHF nav equipment is not operating. >> Obviously when flying an ILS approach one must have funcioning localizer >> and glideslope equipment on board. And similarly when flying a published >> approach that requires GPS / WAAS equipment then that equipment must be >> on board and functioning. >> >> OC -- The best investment we will ever make is in gathering knowledge. >> >> >> ------------------------ GARMIN PRESS RELEASE FOLLOWS -------------- >> November 9, 2006 >> Garmin Receives WAAS Certification for GNS 400W/500W series >> OLATHE, Kansas/November 9, 2006/PR Newswire Garmin International, a >> unit of Garmin Ltd. (Nasdaq: GRMN), today announced the achievement of a >> major aviation milestone at the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association >> (AOPA) Expo in Palm Springs, CA. The GNS 400/500 series have earned the >> FAAs TSO C146a Gamma-3 certification, which enables pilots to fly >> Lateral-Precision with Vertical (LPV) guidance approaches and receive GPS >> navigation via the Wide Area Augmentation System (WAAS). The FAA also >> granted AML (approved model list) STC approval allowing the 400W/500W >> equipment to be installed on over 980 popular makes and models of >> aircraft. The GNS 400/500W series joins the G1000 and GNS 480 in >> providing WAAS enabled navigation for aircraft. Garmin currently offers >> more WAAS solutions than any other avionics provider. >> "This is a great day for Garmin and the aviation industry," said Gary >> Kelley, Garmins vice president of marketing. "Since the FAA commissioned >> WAAS in 2003, there has been an enormous demand for WAAS certified >> equipment in the marketplace. We are pleased to announce that all 75,000 >> Garmin GNS 400/500 series products currently in the field can upgrade to >> WAAS. We expect the number of WAAS equipped aircraft to increase quickly, >> and pilots will be able to operate to and from airports that would >> otherwise be unavailable to them in marginal weather." >> Thanks to the certification and AML STC approval, owners of Garmins >> popular GNS 400/500 series panel-mount avionics will be able to upgrade >> their products to meet the FAAs WAAS standards* without a field >> approval**. These upgrades include 5 Hz position updates, faster map >> redraws, fully coupled and guided procedure turns and holding patterns, >> and increased XM weather content. Pilots will also experience >> significantly enhanced functionality because of the WAAS LPV, LNAV/VNAV, >> LNAV+V, and LNAV approach capabilities. >> Garmins GNS 400W/500W series meets the FAAs highest level of >> certification for WAAS navigation. The units utilize satellite-based >> navaids for precise lateral and vertical approach guidance similar to >> Instrument Landing System (ILS) operations without the need for >> ground-based navaids of any kind. The Gamma-3 level of certification lets >> pilots fly the FAAs new LPV approaches. The FAA has already published >> over 600 LPV and 5,500 WAAS approach procedures. >> The WAAS system improves the accuracy, reliability and integrity of the >> GPS signal. GPS-WAAS navigators that meet FAAs WAAS regulations may be >> used for sole means of navigation* for all phases of flight, including en >> route through precision approach at airports. With WAAS LPV approaches, >> pilots will have stabilized lateral and vertical navigation and will be >> able to navigate as low as 200 feet above the runway end under instrument >> flight rules. >> Garmins panel mount avionics have been installed on nearly three-fourths >> of all U.S. single and twin-engine piston and turbine aircraft >> retrofitted since 2000. The company strives continually to raise-the-bar >> in the avionics industry, and two years ago at the 2004 AOPA Expo Garmins >> GNS 480 was the first GPS navigator in the industry to earn a TSO C146a >> Gamma-3 certification. >> Garmin expects deliveries of the new GNS 430W and GNS 530W to begin in >> about 30 days with upgrades beginning in January 2007. Upgrades are >> available for a suggested retail price of $1,500. Pilots who do not >> currently own Garmin 400/500 series equipment and are in the process of >> upgrading their avionics, will be able to purchase new GNS 430W and GNS >> 530W units for $10,750 and $16,495, respectively. Visit www.garmin.com >> for additional information or a complete list of authorized Garmin >> dealers. >> *Due to the TSO limitation in conjunction with the AFMS limitation, >> Garmins GNS 400/500 series navigators will not be certified as a >> "primary means" of GPS navigation until after customers install a new >> software version. Garmin expects to issue a Service Bulletin in the first >> quarter of 2007 issuing the software. The software will be updated via >> the 400/500W data loader card. This required software update is expected >> to be available in the first quarter of 2007. >> **The AML STC data is intended to provide complete FAA approved data for >> a large subset of CAR3/FAR23 aircraft; however, if the aircraft does not >> pre-qualify for the AML STC standards, additional means of airworthiness >> approval will be required. >> >> ------------------------ END OF GARMIN PRESS RELEASE ------------------ >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Hicks, Wayne" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 3:02 PM >> Subject: 91.205 >> >> >>> OC: >>> >>> Happy New Year to you! >>> >>> Can you help me to understand something? I've heard it said more than >>> once >>> that an amateur-built plane cannot be flown IFR with just a GPS. It >>> must >>> also have the traditional VOR and ILS (when needed) receivers on board. >>> They cite 91.205 and the requirement to have "...equipment on board >>> appropriate to the ***ground-based*** navaids to be used." >>> >>> Why do you think experimentals are held to that when the standard >>> certificated aircraft (Mooneys, Pipers, etc) are now flying with WAAS >>> GPSs >>> and nothing else? Why must me have the crappy, out-dated stuff on board >>> when the new avionics suites in the newer planes do not? >>> >>> I got asked this question from my Cozy builders group. About the only >>> answer I can come up with is (1) the manufacturer proved the nav >>> capabilities of the airplane's capabilities as part of its type >>> certification process; and (2) The FAA is not in the business of >>> certifying >>> the on-board nav capabilities of everyone's home-built airplane. So the >>> FAA >>> makes us use their nav system. >>> >>> How close am I? >>> >>> =================== >>> L. Wayne Hicks >>> Senior Engineer >>> Zel Technologies, LLC >>> 757-325-1282 phone >>> wayne.hicks@zeltech.com >>> http://www.zeltech.com >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:38:28 AM PST US From: CardinalNSB@aol.com Subject: Avionics-List: WAAS I thought the WAAS signal was generated from the ground, am I wrong? Skip ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:02:40 PM PST US From: "David M." Subject: Re: Avionics-List: WAAS It's origins begin on the ground then the corrrections are uplinked to the sats which are then broadcast to us. CardinalNSB@aol.com wrote: > I thought the WAAS signal was generated from the ground, am I wrong? 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