---------------------------------------------------------- Avionics-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 11/27/07: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:02 AM - [Please Read] What are "The Lists" and Who's This Matt Dralle? (Matt Dralle) 1. 03:50 AM - Re: GPS Antenna (Charles Reiche) 2. 04:19 AM - Re: GPS Antenna (Vincent Palermo) 3. 06:09 AM - Re: GPS Antenna (Richard T. Schaefer) 4. 06:10 AM - Re: GPS Antenna (Noel R. C. Loveys) 5. 06:20 AM - Truax Corporation in Florida (Don Curry) 6. 06:42 AM - Re: Truax Corporation in Florida (Harley) 7. 03:14 PM - Re-GPS Antenna Coax Length (Wayne Sweet) 8. 04:15 PM - Re: Re-GPS Antenna Coax Length (Richard T. Schaefer) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:02:38 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Avionics-List: [Please Read] What are "The Lists" and Who's This Matt Dralle? Dear Listers, Who is Matt Dralle and what exactly are these Lists? Well, I've been working in the information technology industry for nearly 25 years primarily in computer networking design and implementation. I have also done extensive work in web development and CGI design during that time, along with some embedded system development as well. I started the Matronics Email Lists back in 1990 with about 30 fellow RV builders from around the world. Since that time, I have added 63 other kinds of aircraft related Lists to the line up and numerous other List related services such as the Forums, Wiki, Archives and Search Engine just to name a few. For flexibility and reliability, I have chosen to run all of my own servers here locally. Other List-related systems include a 1 Gigabit, fully switched network infrastructure, a commercial-grade Netscreen firewall, a Barracuda spam filter, a local T1 Internet router, and a commercial-grade business T1 Internet connection with full static addressing. The computer servers found here include a quad-processor Xeon Linux server for List web services, a dual-processor Xeon Linux system dedicated to the email processing List functions, and another P4 Linux system serving as a remote storage disk farm for the archives, databases, and for an on-line hard drive-based backup system with 3.2 Terra Bytes of storage! This entire system is protected by three large, commercial-grade uninterrupted power supply (UPS) systems that assure the Lists are available even during a local power outage! Speaking of power, imagine how much electricity it takes to run all of these systems. One month last Summer, I had a staggering $1368 bill for electricity alone! I recently upgraded all of the computer racking infrastructure including new power feeds and dedicated air conditioning for the room that serves as the Computer Center for the Matronics Email Lists. Last year I added another rack to house the MONSTER quad-processor web system that didn't quite fit into the first rack! Here's a composite photo of the List Computer Center before the addition of the second rack: http://www.matronics.com/MattDralle-ListComputerCenter.jpg As you can see, I take running these Lists very seriously and I am dedicated to providing an always-on, 24x7x365 experience for each and every Lister. But building and running this system isn't cheap. As I've stated before, I don't support any of these systems with commercial advertising on the Lists. It is supported 100% through List member Contributions! That means you... and you... and YOU! To that end, I hold a List Fund Raiser each November and ask that members make a small Contribution to support the continued operation and upgrade of this ever-expanding system. Its solely YOUR Contributions that keeps it running! Won't you please take a moment to make a Contribution to support these Lists! http://www.matronics.com/contribution Or, by dropping a personal check in the mail to: Matronics / Matt Dralle PO Box 347 Livermore CA 94551-0347 USA (Please include your email address on the check!) There are some great gifts available with qualifying Contribution levels too! Thank you! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:50:45 AM PST US From: "Charles Reiche" Subject: Re: Avionics-List: GPS Antenna You have not had a WAAS 430 for 4 years thank you... That is what we are talking about here and that is where the long coax is mentioned. Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: teamgrumman@aol.com To: avionics-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 12:49 AM Subject: Re: Avionics-List: GPS Antenna So, how long does it take to burn up? 4 years and going strong. -----Original Message----- From: Charles Reiche To: avionics-list@matronics.com Sent: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 3:46 am Subject: Re: Avionics-List: GPS Antenna If you need a short cable run, install a 3db attenuator inline and make the cable as short as you want. Otherwise you can excpect to burn up the front end of the gps reciever due to overload, a $900+ flat rate repair follows. ----- Original Message ----- From: teamgrumman@aol.com To: avionics-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 3:32 AM Subject: Avionics-List: GPS Antenna I've been trying to find an acceptable answer as to why Garmin wants to have the coax cable for the GPS antenna to be between 13 and 15 feet. If I can mount an antenna just 15 inches away from the unit itself, why do I need to mount the antenna 15 feet away? One explanation I got was the 430/530 needed a 3 db loss in the cable. Now, it seems to me that the stronger the signal at the unit is, the better.For what it's worth, I mounted my antenna (Garmin 430) on the glareshield on my Tiger.That was 4 years ago. I've never had any problems with losing the signal. I'm installing another 430 and was told the 430 won't work with a 15 inch cable. Any ideas? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Avionics-List">http://www.matr onhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution or?Avionics-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Avionics-List p://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:19:08 AM PST US From: Vincent Palermo Subject: Re: Avionics-List: GPS Antenna I believe that Garmin is referring to the waas upgrades for the 430/530 series. It also requires that you use double shielded wire, RG-142 or Rg-400. You are right about the short cable length for the 430 and the sl-60, it will work, and so will the gps map series work with a short antenna cable. Also Garmin specs are between -3 and -7 db loss, I wonder if they would approve some kind of impedance matching device in the line??????? Vincent Palermo vpalermo@tampabay.rr.com On Nov 27, 2007, at 12:55 AM, teamgrumman@aol.com wrote: > I have both a Garmin 430 and an Apollo SL-60 with antennas mounted > about 12 to 15 inches away. Both work fine with no signal loss. > I've flown all over the country with them. Maybe I'm getting a 3db > loss through the plexiglass windshield. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Noel R. C. Loveys > To: avionics-list@matronics.com > Sent: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 9:53 am > Subject: RE: Avionics-List: GPS Antenna > > The received signal is digital. This means it only receives 1s and > 0s. > If the signal is too strong (cable shortened) everything looks like > a 1. If the signal is too low ( cable lengthened) everything looks > like a 0. Either way no data is received. > > I guess the folks at Garmin knew what they were doing when they > wrote the installation instructions. Loop the excess wire in as > large a loop as practicably possible. Try to avoid bundling with > Xmtr. Coax. > > Noel > > > From: owner-avionics-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-avionics-list-server@matronics.com > ] On Behalf Of teamgrumman@aol.com > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 5:02 AM > To: avionics-list@matronics.com > Subject: Avionics-List: GPS Antenna > > I've been trying to find an acceptable answer as to why Garmin wants > to have the coax cable for the > GPS antenna to be between 13 and 15 feet. If I can mount an antenna > just 15 inches away from the > unit itself, why do I need to mount the antenna 15 feet away? > > > One explanation I got was the 430/530 needed a 3 db loss in the > cable. Now, it seems to me that the > stronger the signal at the unit is, the better. > > For what it's worth, I mounted my antenna (Garmin 430) on the > glareshield on my Tiger. > That was 4 years ago. I've never had any problems with losing the > signal. I'm installing > another 430 and was told the 430 won't work with a 15 inch cable. > > Any ideas? > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! > > > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Avionics-List > http://forums.matronics.com > > ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > or?Avionics-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Avionics-List > p://forums.matronics.com > > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:09:35 AM PST US From: "Richard T. Schaefer" Subject: RE: Avionics-List: GPS Antenna The antenna and electronics for a Garmin WAAS receiver are significantly different than the PRE-WAAS versions of these products. In order to allow vertical guidance the receiver must process data much more quickly and the receiver/antennae combination must maintain significantly tighter design tolerances. The antenna for a WAAS receiver is different from a NON WAAS receiver. The new SYSTEM is designed assuming high quality coax of a nominal length (that provides a defined range of loss between the antennae and the receiver). This loss is designed into the system and is part of the WAAS certification that must be measured to be IFR certified for WAAS enhanced approaches. That is the reason for a nominal length of antennae wire of course with approved connectors. There are devices that can be installed into the antennae path that add the required loss for the cases where the antennae is adjacent to the receiver. It is also why many installations with antennas remotely installed must be rewired, because the loss allowed for previous non WAAS receivers is out of limits. The days of cheap coax and/or connectors, or multiple connectors are gone for a WAAS approved system! Then entire path must be verified (by measurement) to be within design guidelines as part of the installation certification process. _____ From: owner-avionics-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-avionics-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charles Reiche Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 5:48 AM Subject: Re: Avionics-List: GPS Antenna You have not had a WAAS 430 for 4 years thank you... That is what we are talking about here and that is where the long coax is mentioned. Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: teamgrumman@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 12:49 AM Subject: Re: Avionics-List: GPS Antenna So, how long does it take to burn up? 4 years and going strong. -----Original Message----- From: Charles Reiche Sent: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 3:46 am Subject: Re: Avionics-List: GPS Antenna If you need a short cable run, install a 3db attenuator inline and make the cable as short as you want. Otherwise you can excpect to burn up the front end of the gps reciever due to overload, a $900+ flat rate repair follows. ----- Original Message ----- From: teamgrumman@aol.com Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 3:32 AM Subject: Avionics-List: GPS Antenna I've been trying to find an acceptable answer as to why Garmin wants to have the coax cable for the GPS antenna to be between 13 and 15 feet. If I can mount an antenna just 15 inches away from the unit itself, why do I need to mount the antenna 15 feet away? One explanation I got was the 430/530 needed a 3 db loss in the cable. Now, it seems to me that the stronger the signal at the unit is, the better. For what it's worth, I mounted my antenna (Garmin 430) on the glareshield on my Tiger. That was 4 years ago. I've never had any problems with losing the signal. I'm installing another 430 and was told the 430 won't work with a 15 inch cable. Any ideas? _____ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail ! href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Avionics-List">http://www.matronhref "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution or?Avionics-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Avionics-List p://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Avionics-List">http://www.matronics.com/ Navigator?Avionics-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:10:11 AM PST US From: "Noel R. C. Loveys" Subject: RE: Avionics-List: GPS Antenna With the Gallium Arsenide RF preamplifiers most of these units have there is a real chance that you can overload the pre amp and burn it out Perhaps your GPS doesn=99t have one of those amps. If it does have one and it burns out the whole unit will just stop operating. It is possible that your units have preamp protection. I maintain the best thing to do is to follow the installation manual to the letter. Then if you can afford to replace the unit, play with things like shortening cables. If it still works, great. If it stops working, nothing ventured nothing gained. Noel From: owner-avionics-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-avionics-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of teamgrumman@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 2:25 AM Subject: Re: Avionics-List: GPS Antenna I have both a Garmin 430 and an Apollo SL-60 with antennas mounted about 12 to 15 inches away. Both work fine with no signal loss. I've flown all over the country with them. Maybe I'm getting a 3db loss through the plexiglass windshield. -----Original Message----- From: Noel R. C. Loveys Sent: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 9:53 am Subject: RE: Avionics-List: GPS Antenna The received signal is digital. This means it only receives 1s and 0s. If the signal is too strong (cable shortened) everything looks like a 1. If the signal is too low ( cable lengthened) everything looks like a 0. Either way no data is received. I guess the folks at Garmin knew what they were doing when they wrote the installation instructions. Loop the excess wire in as large a loop as practicably possible. Try to avoid bundling with Xmtr. Coax. Noel From: owner-avionics-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-avionics-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of teamgrumman@aol.com Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 5:02 AM Subject: Avionics-List: GPS Antenna I've been trying to find an acceptable answer as to why Garmin wants to have the coax cable for the GPS antenna to be between 13 and 15 feet. If I can mount an antenna just 15 inches away from the unit itself, why do I need to mount the antenna 15 feet away? One explanation I got was the 430/530 needed a 3 db loss in the cable. Now, it seems to me that the stronger the signal at the unit is, the better. For what it's worth, I mounted my antenna (Garmin 430) on the glareshield on my Tiger. That was 4 years ago. I've never had any problems with losing the signal. I'm installing another 430 and was told the 430 won't work with a 15 inch cable. Any ideas? _____ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail ! http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Avionics-List http://forums.matronics.com ution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution or?Avionics-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Avionics-List p://forums.matronics.com _____ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail ! ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:20:37 AM PST US From: "Don Curry" Subject: Avionics-List: Truax Corporation in Florida I'm looking for info on Truax Corporation in Florida. Apparently, this company manufactures static wicks for aircraft. I can't find them on the web; if someone has heard of them and knows how to contact them, please let me know. Thanks, Don ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:42:42 AM PST US From: Harley Subject: Re: Avionics-List: Truax Corporation in Florida Don... >>Im looking for info on Truax Corporation in Florida<< I'm in a "searching" mood this morning, so.... Found this reference to static discharge wicks designed by Robert Truax, but the company mentioned is TCO: "The technique used to electrostatically charge the aircraft was developed by Robert Truax of TCO, Inc. TCO is a manufacturer of aircraft static discharge wicks and works with various aircraft manufacturers to determine the location and type of discharger required for a specific aircraft." A little further searching produced this: "A purchase order was issued by ISTI to TCO, Inc. of Nogales, AZ and Ft. Myers, FL to obtain high-voltage systems fabrication and testing expertise" And following that lead came up with this: *TCO MANUFACTURING CORP, TRUAX* 604 DANLEY DR FORT MYERS, FL 33901 No web sites found, and not sure if that's what you are looking for, but it's a start! Harley Dixon ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don Curry wrote: > > Im looking for info on Truax Corporation in Florida. Apparently, this > company manufactures static wicks for aircraft. I cant find them on > the web; if someone has heard of them and knows how to contact them, > please let me know. > > Thanks, > > Don > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:14:06 PM PST US From: "Wayne Sweet" Subject: Avionics-List: Re-GPS Antenna Coax Length When in doubt, go to the front end of the horse. Straight from the "horse's mouth" (Garmin installation tech rep 913-397-8200); there is no requirement for either the GNS430 or GNS530W minimum or maximum coax cable length. Wayne ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:15:49 PM PST US From: "Richard T. Schaefer" Subject: RE: Avionics-List: Re-GPS Antenna Coax Length There is a required DB loss between the WAAS receiver and the antennae, with good connectors and good coax that works out to a nominal coax length. I am sure you might be able to meet it with a short cable and poor workmanship . But how long will it stay in specs. _____ From: owner-avionics-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-avionics-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Sweet Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 5:13 PM Subject: Avionics-List: Re-GPS Antenna Coax Length When in doubt, go to the front end of the horse. Straight from the "horse's mouth" (Garmin installation tech rep 913-397-8200); there is no requirement for either the GNS430 or GNS530W minimum or maximum coax cable length. 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