Today's Message Index:
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1. 04:33 AM - Aircraft Manufacturer ()
2. 06:37 AM - Charting Uncontrolled Airspace ()
3. 08:55 AM - Re: Encoder CertificationAeroElectric-List: Encoder Certification (Bill Morelli)
4. 09:51 AM - Give it a rest ()
Message 1
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| Subject: | Aircraft Manufacturer |
1/22/2010
Hello Jim Ayers, You wrote:
1) "What did you put on the 8050-1 form you sent to FAA Oklahoma City to
register your air
craft?"
{Response} I put my name.
2) "There is no BUILDER block on the aircraft registration form."
{Response} That is correct.
Similarly only the term MANUFACTURER rather than BUILDER appears in many
other generic FAA forms that are used in the process of getting our
experimental amateur built aircraft through the FAA administrative wickets
of purchasing, registration, and certification. To wit:
Form 8050-2, AIRCRAFT BILL OF SALE
Form 8050-3, CERTIFICATE OF AIRCRAFT REGISTRATION
Form 8050-88, IDENTIFICATION NUMBER ASSIGNMENT AND REGISTRATION OF
AMATEUR-BUILT AIRCRAFT. (This form refers to the "bill of sale from
manufacturer of the kit" -- they mean the company that created the kit from
which the aircraft is built.)**
Form 8050-110, CONFIRMATION OF RESERVATION OF UNITED STATES REGISTRATION
NUMBER.
The use of these generic FAA forms in the process and the use of the term
MANUFACTURER in those generic forms and on the FAA web site does not make
the builder of an amateur built experimental aircraft into an approved
aircraft manufacturer in the eyes of the FAA.
This fact is made abundantly clear in the FAA Form 8130-7 SPECIAL
AIRWORTHINESS CERTIFICATE for each individual experimental amateur built
aircraft when the MANUFACTURER block is filled with N/A (Not Applicable) and
the BUILDER block is filled with the builder's name by the FAA
Representative who fills out and signs the form.
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
**PS: Note that this same form number 8050-88 is use for a different FAA
form AFFIDAVIT OF OWNERSHIP FOR AMATEUR-BUILT AIRCRAFT which does use the
term "Builder's Name". I guess the FAA was running short of money and could
not afford different numbers for these two different forms.
==================================================
Time: 09:23:27 AM PST US
Subject: Re: Avionics-List: Encoder Certification
From: lessdragprod@aol.com
Hi All,
I just checked the FAA records: William E. Boyd, Jr is the "manufacturer"
of a RV-6A.
There is no BUILDER block on the aircraft registration form. What did you
put on the 8050-1 form you sent to FAA Oklahoma City to register your air
craft? I think this is the first form the FAA sees for a new homebuilt.
Jim Ayers
Message 2
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| Subject: | Charting Uncontrolled Airspace |
1/22/2010
Hello Jon, You wrote:
1) "Oh brother.."
{Response} Hang in there for one more go around. This time we will restrict
the discussion to just charting of uncontrolled airspace and leave
transponders out of it since that subject seems to make some peoples' head
hurt.
2) ".............. one has to actually look at a sectional (NOT IFRchart) to
see where true "uncontrolled airspace" exists." and
"RE: #2. Look at the Class E section of this page:
http://www.flytandem.com/airspace.htm"
{Response} Just looking at a Sectional chart alone and the web site diagram
does not permit one to see where all true uncontrolled airspace exists. Here
is why:
A) The AIRPORT TRAFFIC AND AIRSPACE Legend portion of current Sectional
charts has this wording in it:
"Only the controlled and reserved airspace effective below 18,000 ft. MSL
are shown on this chart." This means that the location of lateral areas of
uncontrolled Class G airspace that go from the surface up to 14,500 feet can
not be determined by looking at a Sectional chart.
B) The AIR TRAFFIC SERVICES AND AIRSPACE INFORMATION on a current IFR
ENROUTE LOW ALTITUDE chart has these wordings in it under AIRSPACE
INFORMATION:
"Open area (white) indicates controlled airspace (Class E); unless otherwise
indicated."
"All airspace 14,500' and above is controlled (Class E)"
"Shaded area (brown) indicates uncontrolled airspace below 14,500' (Class
G)"
So one needs both Sectional and IFR ENROUTE LOW ALTITUDE charts to
completely determine where all uncontrolled Class G airspace is located.
The Sectional chart will tell one where the controlled Class E airspace
exists both laterally by an outline and vertically by either magenta or blue
shading, but won't tell one where the the lateral dimensions of uncontrolled
Class G airspace are.
The IFR ENROUTE LOW ALTITUDE chart, by brown shading, will show one where
uncontrolled Class G airspace exists laterally from the surface up to
14,500.
Why don't you get an IFR ENROUTE LOW ALTITUDE chart for some areas out west
where there is some brown shading, check it out, and let us know what you
find. Our IFR ENROUTE LOW ALTITUDE charts back east are all white between
the navigation information.
Thanks.
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
=================================================
From: "Jon Finley" <jon(at)finleyweb.net>
Subject: RE: Encoder Certification
Oh brother..
Apparently this discussion has went around and around enough times that what
is being said no longer makes sense to anyone.
Next subject please!
Jon
=======================================
Jon Finley wrote:
RE: #2. Look at the Class E section of this page:
http://www.flytandem.com/airspace.htm
Jon
Message 3
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| Subject: | Encoder CertificationAeroElectric-List: Encoder Certification |
1/22/201
It does not mention "Controlled Airspace" anywhere in 91.215 (b) but:
91.215 (c) states:
Transponder-on operation. While in the airspace as specified in paragraph (b)
of this section or in all controlled airspace, each person operating an aircraft
equipped with an operatble ATC transponder maintained in accordance with 91.413
of this part shall operate the transponder, including Mode C equipment f installed
and shall reply on the appropriated code or as assigned by ATC.
***********************************************************************************************************************
So this means to me that if you have a transponder installed that has been tested
per 91.413, you MUST turn it on when in ANY CONTROLLED AIRSPACE. (A,B,C,D,E)
If your transponder has NOT been tested per 91.413, you MUST NOT turn it on>
1/21/2010
Hello Again Jon Finley, Thank you for responding to my request (copied
below) to review the charting of controlled and uncontrolled airspace in
your area.
Before I respond to the specific points that you made in that charting
regard I would like to again remind all of the readers regarding the non
relevance of generic controlled airspace when it comes to determining
whether or not an aircraft must be equipped with an operable coded
transponder.
I repeat: "Anyway the real issue here when it comes to requiring a
transponder or
not is not the existence or not of generic controlled airspace, but rather
the
specific airspaces identified in 91.215 (b). The term "controlled airspace"
is not used once in the entire 91.215 (b) parargraph and this is the 14 CFR
paragaph that regulates whether an aircraft must be equipped with a
transponder or not."
Bill Morelli
billvt@together.net
EarthLink Revolves Around You.
Message 4
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1/22/2010
Hello Greg Young, You wrote: "Give it a rest."
I agree -- I'm gone too.
Some people have controlled airspace and transponder requirement and
uncontrolled airspace and transponder non requirement so hard wired into
their brain that no facts can change their mind.
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
========================================================
"Greg Young" <gyoung@cs-sol.com>
Subject: Encoder Certification
Date: Jan 21, 2010
Dude... Give it a rest. I've exercised the delete key way too often. I'm
gone.
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