---------------------------------------------------------- Avionics-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 01/23/10: 1 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:58 AM - Charting Uncontrolled Airspace () ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:44 AM PST US From: Subject: Avionics-List: Charting Uncontrolled Airspace 1/23/2010 Hello Jon Finley, I am sorry that your January 22, 2010 2:11 PM posting copied below has an emotional and rejecting tone to it. My postings in response to yours have in no way intended to be punitive or critical of you personally -- just educational for all involved. With that in mind please let me respond in detail to your posting copied below. You wrote: 1) "It is no wonder folks on the list are asking for this nonsense to stop." {Response} Yes, I was persistent regarding transponder requirements. I did this because some people were still posting using the wrong criteria and I did not want to let that erroneous information stand uncorrected. 2) "As an aside, do you work for the government??" {Response} My personal work for the U. S. government consisted of 36 years on active duty in the US Navy and US Marine Corps as both enlisted and officer fixing and flying airplanes and helicopters. I retired from that work in 1986. 3) "WE ALL GET IT!" {Response} Good, I hope that my postings had something to do with that. 4) "So, if only "controlled airspace" is shown then "uncontrolled airspace" cannot be shown?? That makes no sense." {Response} When the aviation chart makers were confronted with the problem of showing the lateral dimensions of that uncontrolled Class G airspace which goes from the surface all the way up to 14,500 feet MSL they realized that putting such information on a Sectional chart would result in unacceptable clutter. They came up with the solution of using brown shading for those areas on the low altitude IFR charts to show that information. 5) "Using these generic terms ("controlled" and "uncontrolled" makes this entire section worthless)." {Response} These are the accepted terms. They make it possible to write about those two different kinds of airspace without listing each individual identification letter each time the writer wants to refer to a kind of airspace. 6) "We agree that Class G airspace exists UNDER the floor of Class E airspace. THIS IS DEPICTED ON A SECTIONAL. You do not need an IFR chart to see this." {Response} This is correct, but you do need a low altitude IFR chart to show the lateral dimensions of the uncontrolled airspace shaded brown that goes from the surface up to 14,500 feet MSL because that information is not depicted on a Sectional chart. See the response to item 4 above. One cannot get the total picture just by focusing on vertical dimensions and looking at a Sectional chart. 7) "Why don't YOU do the research instead of asking me to do it? Better still, do this research BEFORE responding." {Response} I have already done so. I am suggesting that you look at the actual charts involved, Albuquerque Sectional and the low altitude IFR chart for that area, so that you can see the brown shading for yourself. I made this suggestion because you did not appear to take my posted information as valid. 8) " I have given you the resource (Skyvector.com) to see any sectional and IFR chart in the USA." I did go to the Skyvector site as you suggested -- thank you. I Iooked at the sample charts that they would let me look at for no cost -- those samples, while not of the specific area of our interest, did confirm my posted information. Since I fly from an airport in Virginia I could not justify the expense of purchasing a current Albuquerque Sectional (my copy is outdated) and appropriate current low altitude IFR chart just to look at them myself when my goal was to have you look at them. A fellow EAA Chapter member has offered to give me a complete set of current low altitude IFR charts. When I get my hands on them I will let you know and ask for your mailing address so that I can mail you the appropriate low altitude IFR chart. I presume that you already have a current Albuquerque Sectional since you fly out of Los Lunas (E98). Please let me know if this plan is acceptable to you. 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge." ==================================================== ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 2:11 PM Subject: RE: Charting Uncontrolled Airspace Bakerocb, Apparently I am a terrible glutten for punishment.. It is no wonder folks on the list are asking for this nonsense to stop. As an aside, do you work for the government?? 1. For some reason you seem to believe that nobody understands this (when is a transponder required). WE ALL GET IT! It is very simple (it has been said repeatedly, read CFR 91.215 (b)). 2.A. So, if only "controlled airspace" is shown then "uncontrolled airspace" cannot be shown?? That makes no sense. "Uncontrolled airspace" is everything that is NOT controlled. Using these generic terms ("controlled" and "uncontrolled" makes this entire section worthless). This part is getting really old.... On a sectional: Class B, C, and D indicate where the "controlled airspace" extends to the ground (and much more). The lowest floor of Class E is 700' AGL. The shaded magenta lines show where the floor of Class E changes from 700' AGL to 1,200' AGL. The shaded blue lines show where the floor of Class E changes from 1200' AGL to 14,500' AGL. The staggered blue lines (e.g. "----___---___-----___----") show where the floor of the Class E airspace is when this cannot be depicted by the shaded blue or magenta lines. These staggered blue lines either specify the floor of the Class E airspace or it is 14,500' MSL. Class G airspace exists UNDER Class E (at a minimum, possibly more, I'm not sure). 2.B. We agree that Class G airspace exists UNDER the floor of Class E airspace. THIS IS DEPICTED ON A SECTIONAL. You do not need an IFR chart to see this. Additionally, a low level IFR chart does NOT depict the areas in which the floor of the Class E is at a non-standard (14,500' MSL) altitude. This means that the pilot could THINK, because the chart is showing "white", that Class E exists to 1,200' AGL when it does not (rather, it may end at 12,500' AGL, for example). Why don't YOU do the research instead of asking me to do it? Better still, do this research BEFORE responding. I have given you the resource (Skyvector.com) to see any sectional and IFR chart in the USA. I'll even give you a tip - look at the two charts in the area around Gallup, NM (GUP). Jon ===================================================== -----Original Message----- From: bakerocb@cox.net Hello Jon, You wrote: 1) "Oh brother.." {Response} Hang in there for one more go around. This time we will restrict the discussion to just charting of uncontrolled airspace and leave transponders out of it since that subject seems to make some peoples' head hurt. 2) ".............. one has to actually look at a sectional (NOT IFRchart) to see where true "uncontrolled airspace" exists." and "RE: #2. Look at the Class E section of this page: http://www.flytandem.com/airspace.htm" {Response} Just looking at a Sectional chart alone and the web site diagram does not permit one to see where all true uncontrolled airspace exists. Here is why: A) The AIRPORT TRAFFIC AND AIRSPACE Legend portion of current Sectional charts has this wording in it: "Only the controlled and reserved airspace effective below 18,000 ft. MSL are shown on this chart." This means that the location of lateral areas of uncontrolled Class G airspace that go from the surface up to 14,500 feet can not be determined by looking at a Sectional chart. B) The AIR TRAFFIC SERVICES AND AIRSPACE INFORMATION on a current IFR ENROUTE LOW ALTITUDE chart has these wordings in it under AIRSPACE INFORMATION: "Open area (white) indicates controlled airspace (Class E); unless otherwise indicated." "All airspace 14,500' and above is controlled (Class E)" "Shaded area (brown) indicates uncontrolled airspace below 14,500' (Class G)" So one needs both Sectional and IFR ENROUTE LOW ALTITUDE charts to completely determine where all uncontrolled Class G airspace is located. The Sectional chart will tell one where the controlled Class E airspace exists both laterally by an outline and vertically by either magenta or blue shading, but won't tell one where the the lateral dimensions of uncontrolled Class G airspace are. The IFR ENROUTE LOW ALTITUDE chart, by brown shading, will show one where uncontrolled Class G airspace exists laterally from the surface up to 14,500. Why don't you get an IFR ENROUTE LOW ALTITUDE chart for some areas out west where there is some brown shading, check it out, and let us know what you find. Our IFR ENROUTE LOW ALTITUDE charts back east are all white between the navigation information. Thanks. 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge." ================================================= From: "Jon Finley" Subject: RE: Encoder Certification Oh brother.. Apparently this discussion has went around and around enough times that what is being said no longer makes sense to anyone. Next subject please! Jon ======================================= Jon Finley wrote: RE: #2. Look at the Class E section of this page: http://www.flytandem.com/airspace.htm Jon ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message avionics-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Avionics-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/avionics-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/avionics-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.