---------------------------------------------------------- Avionics-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 05/16/14: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:49 AM - Re: Equipping experimental for IFR (curts63) 2. 06:08 AM - Equipping experimental for IFR (Owen Baker) 3. 08:25 AM - Re: Re: Equipping experimental for IFR (Kelly McMullen) 4. 09:43 AM - Re: Equipping experimental for IFR (Owen Baker) 5. 02:51 PM - Re: Equipping experimental for IFR (Owen Baker) 6. 07:16 PM - Re: Re: Equipping experimental for IFR (Kelly McMullen) 7. 08:53 PM - Re: Re: Equipping experimental for IFR (Tim Andres) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:49:40 AM PST US Subject: Avionics-List: Re: Equipping experimental for IFR From: "curts63" Ok, thanks. In the case of the pitot static and transponder, they get tested every 24 months. Is this test different for VFR versus IFR? For the Garmin 430W, I've heard that this requires a ground test and flight test? Is this something that needs to be repeated on a standard interval? Is it required to have a backup instruments to the EFIS ? I know it's the better practice to have those, but are they required in experimental? Curt Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423340#423340 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:08:49 AM PST US From: "Owen Baker " Subject: Avionics-List: Equipping experimental for IFR 5/16/2014 Hello Curt, You wrote: =9C.... trying to learn.=9D I really appreciate it when an EAB (Experimental Amateur Built) aircraft builder or owner comes out with an attitude like that =93 way to go! Some time back I created the attached document to help answer questions like yours. It has been published in Kitplanes magazine. Please let me know if you have any further questions. =98OC=99 Baker 'O C' Baker says "The best investment you can make is the effort to gather and understand information." ================== Time: 05:27:36 PM PST US Subject: Avionics-List: Equipping experimental for IFR From: "curts63" I"m new to owning a plane and trying to learn. I bought a used experimental plane. The panel includes an MGL Voyager EFIS, Backup airspeed, Backup altimeter, Garmin 430W, Garmin GTX-327, Garmin 240 audio panel, and a Navworx ADS-B. The Voyager has the horizon, slip skid ball, compass, altimeter, airspeed, OAT, clock, timer, oil temp, oil pressure, RPM, CDI, glideslope, autopilot, and more. My question is, what is the required equipment for IFR and what testing has to be done prior to filing and flying? Any insight and guidance is greatly appreciated. Thanks, Curt ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:25:50 AM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: Avionics-List: Re: Equipping experimental for IFR Yes, the IFR altimeter/static test involves checking every 1000 ft up to max altitude you want. No on repetition of the 430. See AC 20-138A No backups required for experimental, just Part 23. Good idea to plan what type of backup you want. On 5/16/2014 4:48 AM, curts63 wrote: > > Ok, thanks. In the case of the pitot static and transponder, they get tested every 24 months. Is this test different for VFR versus IFR? > > For the Garmin 430W, I've heard that this requires a ground test and flight test? Is this something that needs to be repeated on a standard interval? > > Is it required to have a backup instruments to the EFIS ? I know it's the better practice to have those, but are they required in experimental? > > Curt > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423340#423340 > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:43:09 AM PST US From: "Owen Baker " Subject: Avionics-List: Re: Equipping experimental for IFR 5/16/2014 Hello Curt, You wrote: 1) Does it have to be field tested/certified prior to IFR flight .....? a) Lets take the certified part first. This extract: Fly WAAS Approaches GNS 430W comes with built-in WAAS navigation capabilities. It is approved to fly LPV glideslope approaches without reference to ground-based navaids of any kind. Featuring an advanced 15-channel receiver capable of five position updates per second, GNS 430W meets the FAA's stringent TSO C146a standards for WAAS "sole means" navigation providing vertical and lateral approach guidance into thousands of U.S. airports previously inaccessible in IFR conditions. copied from a Garmin page shows that the 430W is fully compliant with TSO C146a for sole means navigation including precision approaches. No further certification in the field is needed. b) Regarding field testing: There are no provisions in the federal regulatory system for the FAA to field test the avionics installation in your EAB aircraft. One may turn to an FAA approved MRO (Maintenance and Repair Organization) for such field testing, but that organization is obligated to comply with some regulatory provisions established for type certificated aircraft which do not apply to your EAB. In the MRO's misguided attempts to comply with type certificated aircraft criteria in regard to your EAB you can wind up with a real (and expensive) mess on your hands. So my recommendation is that you use an FAA approved MRO for the bench testing and repair of your individual avionics components when required, but do not attempt to have them field test any EAB entire avionics installation. b) .... does it need to be certified on an ongoing interval,... No regulatory recertification for the 430W is required, but there are the issues of navigation data base and software updates: a) Navigation Data Base Updates: This can be an ongoing chore / expense depending upon how you approach it. The ultimate (and most expensive) navigation data base update solution is to have a Jeppesen subscription that provides one an appropriate geographic navigation data base update every 26 days that you must download with your computer onto the navigation data base card for your 430W and then install in the unit. An alternative is to call Jeppesen to order and install a one time navigation data base download when you see the need. b) Software Updates: If you poke around digitally inside your 430W you will discover an amazingly large number of different software programs that control the various aspects of that box. You can write down the identity, including the version, of each of those software programs and carry it off to a nearby qualified Garmin dealer / servicing facility. They can check their Garmin files to see if there are any available updates to those software programs. Those updates will fall into categories such as mandatory (in Garmins opinion) or sort of nice to have. Use your judgment as to whether you want to go to the effort / expense to have any software updates done. Please let me know if you have any further questions. 'OC' ==================================================================================== From: Curt Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 9:23 AM Subject: RE: Equipping experimental for IFR Owen, Thank you for the equipment list, that helps with whats needed for flight rules. The one outstanding question is with the Garmin 430W. Does it have to be field tested/certified prior to IFR flight and does it need to be certified on an ongoing interval, like the transponder? Sincerely, Curt Stein ==================================================== From: Owen Baker [mailto:bakerocb@cox.net] Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 9:08 AM aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Subject: Equipping experimental for IFR 5/16/2014 Hello Curt, You wrote: .... trying to learn. I really appreciate it when an EAB (Experimental Amateur Built) aircraft builder or owner comes out with an attitude like that way to go! Some time back I created the attached document to help answer questions like yours. It has been published in Kitplanes magazine. Please let me know if you have any further questions. OC Baker 'O C' Baker says "The best investment you can make is the effort to gather and understand information." ==================================================================== Time: 05:27:36 PM PST US Subject: Avionics-List: Equipping experimental for IFR From: "curts63" I"m new to owning a plane and trying to learn. I bought a used experimental plane. The panel includes an MGL Voyager EFIS, Backup airspeed, Backup altimeter, Garmin 430W, Garmin GTX-327, Garmin 240 audio panel, and a Navworx ADS-B. The Voyager has the horizon, slip skid ball, compass, altimeter, airspeed, OAT, clock, timer, oil temp, oil pressure, RPM, CDI, glideslope, autopilot, and more. My question is, what is the required equipment for IFR and what testing has to be done prior to filing and flying? Any insight and guidance is greatly appreciated. Thanks, Curt ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:51:38 PM PST US From: "Owen Baker " Subject: Avionics-List: Re: Equipping experimental for IFR 5/16/2014 Hello Curt, You wrote: 1) "There are no mandatory tests like you would see in the VOR area where you're required to check the accuracy?" I am aware of no regulatory mandatory requirement to check the GPS accuracy performance of a Garmin 430W prior to filing and flying IFR. You may wish to check into the subject of RAIM (Receiver Autonomous Integrity Monitoring). 2) "So in conclusion, the 430w does not need any kind of test prior to using it in IFR conditions?"** As you imply in 1 above, if you are using the VOR capability of the 430W for IFR navigation then you must comply with 14 CFR 91.171. 3) "You don't need a signed flight manual supplement to go along with the POH?" Here you are treading into the area of trying to super impose regulatory requirements established by the FAA for type certificated aircraft onto the far thinner regulatory arena that EAB aircraft operate in. Where is the regulation that requires a POH for an EAB aircraft? Where is the regulation that says who is authorized to sign the flight manual supplement for an EAB aircraft POH?## 4) "I really appreciate you taking the time to educate me." It is my pleasure, sir. 5) "Thanks again for your assistance." You are welcome any time. 'OC' **PS: I would recommend extensive practice under VFR in VMC conditions with your aircraft's avionics installation before venturing into IFR under IMC conditions. ##PS: I am not saying that a good POH / supplement is not needed for safe flight in EAB aircraft, just that the FAA does not mandate those items by regulations and it is up to the builder / pilot of the EAB aircraft to create what is needed for safe flight for him and his aircraft. ======================================================= From: Curt Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 3:26 PM Subject: RE: Equipping experimental for IFR Owen, So in conclusion, the 430w does not need any kind of test prior to using it in IFR conditions? There are no mandatory tests like you would see in the VOR area where you're required to check the accuracy? You don't need a signed flight manual supplement to go along with the POH? I do know about the monthly nav data updates from Jeppesen. I did purchase the expensive annual update package for my intended area of flying. Thanks again for your assistance. I really appreciate you taking the time to educate me. Curt ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:16:29 PM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: Avionics-List: Re: Equipping experimental for IFR I strongly recommend following the guidance of AC 20-138A (available for download from FAA) when installing a certified GPS in an OBAM experimental aircraft. Item 22 on pg 37 is Installed performance-ground tests. Ensures there are not interference issues with other installed avionics. Item 23 on pg 39. Installed performance - flight test. Again, suggestions to ensure flight guidance, especially for approaches is as expected. Not regulatory, but highly recommended. The AC also has some guidance on flight manual supplements. Generally not a big deal, unless you plan on having someone other than yourself fly the plane. On 5/16/2014 2:50 PM, Owen Baker wrote: > > 5/16/2014 > > Hello Curt, You wrote: > > 1) "There are no mandatory tests like you would see in the VOR area > where you're required to check the accuracy?" > > I am aware of no regulatory mandatory requirement to check the GPS > accuracy performance of a Garmin 430W prior to filing and flying IFR. > You may wish to check into the subject of RAIM (Receiver Autonomous > Integrity Monitoring). > > 2) "So in conclusion, the 430w does not need any kind of test prior to > using it in IFR conditions?"** > > As you imply in 1 above, if you are using the VOR capability of the > 430W for IFR navigation then you must comply with 14 CFR 91.171. > > 3) "You don't need a signed flight manual supplement to go along with > the POH?" > > Here you are treading into the area of trying to super impose > regulatory requirements established by the FAA for type certificated > aircraft onto the far thinner regulatory arena that EAB aircraft > operate in. Where is the regulation that requires a POH for an EAB > aircraft? Where is the regulation that says who is authorized to sign > the flight manual supplement for an EAB aircraft POH?## > > 4) "I really appreciate you taking the time to educate me." > > It is my pleasure, sir. > > 5) "Thanks again for your assistance." > > You are welcome any time. > > 'OC' > > **PS: I would recommend extensive practice under VFR in VMC conditions > with your aircraft's avionics installation before venturing into IFR > under IMC conditions. > > ##PS: I am not saying that a good POH / supplement is not needed for > safe flight in EAB aircraft, just that the FAA does not mandate those > items by regulations and it is up to the builder / pilot of the EAB > aircraft to create what is needed for safe flight for him and his > aircraft. > > ======================================================= > From: Curt > Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 3:26 PM > To: 'Owen Baker ' > Subject: RE: Equipping experimental for IFR > > Owen, > So in conclusion, the 430w does not need any kind of test prior to > using it in IFR conditions? There are no mandatory tests like you > would see in the VOR area where you're required to check the accuracy? > You don't need a signed flight manual supplement to go along with the > POH? > > I do know about the monthly nav data updates from Jeppesen. I did > purchase the expensive annual update package for my intended area of > flying. > > Thanks again for your assistance. I really appreciate you taking the > time to educate me. > > Curt > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:53:05 PM PST US Subject: Re: Avionics-List: Re: Equipping experimental for IFR From: Tim Andres The Garmin 430W install manual has a checkout procedure as well. FWIW, I do know the local avionics shop here has a pilot they use to shoot various approaches in VFR to verify all is well. I don't know that it's required, but it seems only prudent to do so. Tim > On May 16, 2014, at 7:15 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: > > > I strongly recommend following the guidance of AC 20-138A (available for download from FAA) when installing a certified GPS in an OBAM experimental aircraft. > Item 22 on pg 37 is Installed performance-ground tests. Ensures there are not interference issues with other installed avionics. > Item 23 on pg 39. Installed performance - flight test. Again, suggestions to ensure flight guidance, especially for approaches is as expected. > Not regulatory, but highly recommended. The AC also has some guidance on flight manual supplements. > Generally not a big deal, unless you plan on having someone other than yourself fly the plane. > >> On 5/16/2014 2:50 PM, Owen Baker wrote: >> >> 5/16/2014 >> >> Hello Curt, You wrote: >> >> 1) "There are no mandatory tests like you would see in the VOR area where you're required to check the accuracy?" >> >> I am aware of no regulatory mandatory requirement to check the GPS accuracy performance of a Garmin 430W prior to filing and flying IFR. You may wish to check into the subject of RAIM (Receiver Autonomous Integrity Monitoring). >> >> 2) "So in conclusion, the 430w does not need any kind of test prior to using it in IFR conditions?"** >> >> As you imply in 1 above, if you are using the VOR capability of the 430W for IFR navigation then you must comply with 14 CFR 91.171. >> >> 3) "You don't need a signed flight manual supplement to go along with the POH?" >> >> Here you are treading into the area of trying to super impose regulatory requirements established by the FAA for type certificated aircraft onto the far thinner regulatory arena that EAB aircraft operate in. Where is the regulation that requires a POH for an EAB aircraft? Where is the regulation that says who is authorized to sign the flight manual supplement for an EAB aircraft POH?## >> >> 4) "I really appreciate you taking the time to educate me." >> >> It is my pleasure, sir. >> >> 5) "Thanks again for your assistance." >> >> You are welcome any time. >> >> 'OC' >> >> **PS: I would recommend extensive practice under VFR in VMC conditions with your aircraft's avionics installation before venturing into IFR under IMC conditions. >> >> ##PS: I am not saying that a good POH / supplement is not needed for safe flight in EAB aircraft, just that the FAA does not mandate those items by regulations and it is up to the builder / pilot of the EAB aircraft to create what is needed for safe flight for him and his aircraft. >> >> ======================================================= >> From: Curt >> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 3:26 PM >> To: 'Owen Baker ' >> Subject: RE: Equipping experimental for IFR >> >> Owen, >> So in conclusion, the 430w does not need any kind of test prior to using it in IFR conditions? There are no mandatory tests like you would see in the VOR area where you're required to check the accuracy? You don't need a signed flight manual supplement to go along with the POH? >> >> I do know about the monthly nav data updates from Jeppesen. I did purchase the expensive annual update package for my intended area of flying. >> >> Thanks again for your assistance. I really appreciate you taking the time to educate me. >> >> Curt > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message avionics-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Avionics-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/avionics-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/avionics-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.