Today's Message Index:
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1. 12:28 AM - Re: Engine input. (Ron Davis)
2. 04:15 AM - Re: Engine input. (BobsV35B@aol.com)
3. 11:18 AM - Re: Engine input. (Ron Davis)
4. 01:52 PM - Re: Beech-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 05/30/03 (Stuart J Brown)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Engine input. |
--> Beech-List message posted by: Ron Davis <radavis2522@netzero.net>
Peter Scott wrote:
> Hello engine guru's
>
> I need input on my options. Everything is running fine.. fresh annual..
> E-185-11 but, I'd like to plan for the future (read start saving my money)
> and am confused:
> I would like to go to a 225 hp when the time comes.
> What about cylinder/piston(#of rings, etc) options.
> I have a relatively new (250 hr) Hartzell prop, is it compatible?
> Later model wobble pump/fuel selector is installed which, I understand,
> is needed for the 225.
> Do I need a different oil reservoir (is more cooling required?)
> Any experience, thots or comments will be appreciated.
>
> Pete Scott
> N4579V Straight 35 ss1221
Pete,
Here's what (very) little I know about this:
First, read the ABS Magazine May 2003 issue (pg 7816) about overhauling an
E185-11 engine. Lots of good info there.
Some die-hards will chime in and say "Keep the E185." The primary advantage
to this is that you don't have to change anything when you do the overhaul,
and changing things usually means adding weight to a plane that handles
better the lighter it is.
You can buy a core and start the long process of overhauling it yourself.
This way, you can take your time and buy as your budget allows. You can
decide if you want to overhaul/use your existing accessories, or buy them
too and do an engine swap in a single day.
If this is a do-it-yourself kinda job using a runout core, then here's what
you will probably want to know.
Crankshaft:
There are preliminary and unfounded rumors that the v-tail ruddervator
vibration problem *may* be due to E-series engines involved in a prop
strike, and subsequently declared good and overhauled. A prop strike
apparently has been noticed as a common history point in the early Bonanzas
with ruddervator vibration damage. The choice is yours.
Cylinders:
6 of 'em. I believe the current (i.e., "best") casting number on the
cylinder is 536727. New steel cylinders from Continental, and you can get
them as a matched set of 6, and TCM will try to keep the weights reasonably
even between all the cylinders. Order the 4-ring pistons, as the 4th ring
acts as a preliminary oil wiper, and really reduces the oil consumption.
Mine has the 4-ring pistons, and is about 600 hours now. It goes about 12
hrs before I have to add a quart. Oh. The cylinder kits will NOT have the
piston wrist pins. You have to order them separately. Add about $30 ea. I
bought my cylinders from:
A.E.R.O. Aviation Company, Inc.
3701 Hwy 162
P.O. Box 1287
Granite City, IL 60240
618-797-6630 or 800-362-3044
As of 1996, it was about $900 per 4-ring cylinder.
Another E-engine parts source is:
Premium Aircraft Parts
4117-A Grand Ave.
Ft. Smith, AR 72904
800-932-2192
479-649-0649 fax
Chris Baker
If you are rebuilding cylinders, then there are many shops that will do a
good job in reworking them. I'm in Southern California, and like:
Corona Cylinder Overhaul
1965 Aviation Drive
Corona, CA 92880-9602
909-736-6452
909-736-6801 fax
Email: craig@coronacylinder.com
http://www.coronacylinder.com
As you are up in the Bay Area (California), you probably have your own local
sources, though.
Aviation Research Systems has an STC to replace the E-series cylinders with
IO-470N cylinders, but I don't think it covers the 35, A35, or B35. Pooh.
Also, ARS' customer service image is not all that great. I'd check with
them very closely before committing to expensive work done by them.
Oh.
As for the accessories:
Magneto:
Savage Magneto
General Delivery, Oakland, CA 94617
-or-
??? Langly St.,
Oakland, CA 94614
510-562-2941
Al Marcucci
Bendix PS-5C carburetor &
Thompson Fuel pump:
Accessory Connection
4903 Diggins Trail, PO Box 886
Somerset, CA 95684
530-622-1650
Oh, yeah. There's now a guy who will "rework" the Thompson TF-1900 fuel
pump so it no longer needs to be inspected every 300 hours. For a paltry
$1,100, it will go to engine TBO, or thereabouts:
Thunderbird Accessories
5406 N. Rockwell Ave.
Bethany, OK 73008
405-789-1822
405-789-8672
Paul Finefrock
Starter, Generator, and really, all accessories:
Cruiseair Aviation Inc.
Ramona Airport [RNM]
2428 Montecito Road
Ramona, CA 92065
760-789-8020
760-789-6935 (fax)
Dick Kuck (say "cook")
If you go with the bigger E225 engine, then you will need to replace your
"tire pump" fuel selector with a "hand brake" fuel selector used in the
later E225'd Bonanzas. This will be a bit problematic to find, but the
salvage yards may come to your rescue. I'd try:
Surprise Valley Aviation
Cedarville Airport
Cedarville, CA 96104
530-279-2111
530-279-6173 (fax)
email: <sva@comancheparts.com>
http://www.comancheparts.com/index.html
As they are close to you. Otherwise, try:
Arrell Aircraft
701 Del Norte Blvd., Suite 220
Oxnard, CA 93030
805-604-0439
805-604-0429 (fax)
Rick Leatherwood
email: <BeechedOut@aol.com>
http://www.arrellaircraft.com/
... as Rick knows most Beech part numbers off the top of his head.
If you replace the wobble pump, then take a hard look at the fuel lines.
There may be tiny cracks, so be prepared to replace the lines as well.
The E225-8 engine came standard with the fuel primer system -- gas is routed
from the fuel feed line through a solenoid valve, into a 4 or 6-way spider,
and directly to the cylinders. It is supposed to help in cold starts. I
have never needed it, and can't see the need for one if you are trying to
add it on. Besides, the silly solenoid costs over three THOUSAND dollars if
you can find one (or $30 if you use a -very- similar solenoid used in LPG
natural gas fueled cars).
I imagine you have the Hartzell HC-12X20 prop conversion. It will work on
the E185 or the E225 without trouble. Just be -very- careful putting the
prop on. The "popular" torque values of 300 ft. lbs will crush a slip ring
in the hub, causing bronze shavings to kill your new engine in short order.
Read up on the past articled by Lew Gage in ABS Magazine about this. Get
the CD-ROM of back issues to make it easy on yourself.
As long as I'm mentioning Lew, he will soon be closing his spin-on oil
filter business, so order one soon. About $500.00.
Sunrise Filters, Inc.
2255 Sunrise
Reno NV 89509
775-826-7184
775-826-7184 (fax)
Lew Gage
Oil cooler tank:
There were two or three different oil cooler tanks used in the early 35s as
they made production changes. If yours has the circular shroud in front of
the tank's cooling tubes, then you may need a new tank. Not sure. My parts
book says that they switched over at s/n D-1117, and yours is D-1221, so you
should be okay ... if the book is right.
Finally, a word about placards and POHs:
Even if you upgrade to the E225, you still have to operate as if you still
had an E185-11 engine in there. That means that your speed and temperature
placards (and limits) stay the same. Fuel pressure, oil pressure, oil temp,
Cylinder Head temp are all the same. and 2300 rpm on takeoff (or whatever
for the Hartzell), and 1900-2300 for cruise. Darn. What they don't tell
you is that you are now able to fly a lot higher into the green arc than you
were before. Yay.
Best regards,
Ron Davis
1954 E35 Bonanza
Newport Beach, Calif.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Engine input. |
--> Beech-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
In a message dated 5/31/2003 2:29:03 AM Central Standard Time,
radavis2522@netzero.net writes:
> Finally, a word about placards and POHs:
> Even if you upgrade to the E225, you still have to operate as if you still
> had an E185-11 engine in there. That means that your speed and temperature
> placards (and limits) stay the same. Fuel pressure, oil pressure, oil temp,
>
> Cylinder Head temp are all the same. and 2300 rpm on takeoff (or whatever
> for the Hartzell), and 1900-2300 for cruise. Darn. What they don't tell
> you is that you are now able to fly a lot higher into the green arc than you
>
> were before. Yay.
>
Good Morning Ron,
Very good message with one small error.
When the E-225 is installed in the straight 35, it is, as you state, limited
to 2300 RPM for take off, but it is limited to a MAXIMUM of 2050 for all other
operations.
In addition, the MP is restricted to a maximum of 26.5 inches while at 2300
and 27.5 inches while at 2050.
The 2300 and 26.5 inch power setting is limited to one minute and is only
allowed during takeoff.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Engine input. |
--> Beech-List message posted by: Ron Davis <radavis2522@netzero.net>
BobsV35B@aol.com wrote:
>
> Good Morning Ron,
>
> Very good message with one small error.
>
> When the E-225 is installed in the straight 35, it is, as you state,
> limited to 2300 RPM for take off, but it is limited to a MAXIMUM of
> 2050 for all other operations.
>
> In addition, the MP is restricted to a maximum of 26.5 inches while
> at 2300 and 27.5 inches while at 2050.
>
> The 2300 and 26.5 inch power setting is limited to one minute and is
> only allowed during takeoff.
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
Oboy. Sure makes it difficult to operate one of those babies.
I dug up the Hartzell Type Certificate Data Sheet on the HC12X20, with the
8433 blades (which are the ones I think the Bonanza uses - I have the Beech
215 electric prop myself) and found these little nuggets:
E-185 w/ (1) 5th order and (1) 6th order damper:
Takeoff redline at 2600 rpm
E-185 w/ (2) 6th order dampers:
Takeoff redline at 2600 rpm
E-225:
Avoid continuous operation
between 1400 - 1700 rpm,
between 1900 - 2200 rpm, and
between 2450 - 2550 rpm.
(Wotta pain!)
And then, there's the Continental E-225 Type Certificate Data sheet that
says stuff like max CHT of 525 (spark plug sensor), or 450 (well-type
thermocouple), and which spark plugs you can use, but no real info on the
operating limitations of the engine. For that, you can look at the
Continental Operator's Manual for E-165, E-185, E-225 Aircraft Engines. That
has the performance graphs for hp at a given fuel flow rate.
Of course, these are just the manufacturer's limits, which take a back seat
to the Beech Pilot's Operating Handbook limitations, which you have to use
as the final say on all of this.
I don't have a POH for the 35/A35/B35, but Ol' Bob probably has one next to
his computer, so we can take his word for it that the limits are, but just
to be sure, I swiped this info from the vintagebonanza.com website:
Model 35 w/ E185-1, E185-8, E185-11, or E25-8 engine:
Takeoff : 2300 rpm @ 26.5" MP (185 hp) or less.
All other operations: 2050 rpm @ 27.5" MP (165 hp) or less.
Green : 1300 - 2050 rpm (tough if Hartzell says to avoid 1900-2200)
Yellow : 2050 - 2300 rpm
Redline: 2300 rpm
Of course, two of my buddies fly with an A35 / E225-8 / Hartzell prop and
they tend to ignore all these limitations and fly with the G35's limitations
(which lists performance settings for the E225-8), and have had no trouble
at all. Its their call to make, though, to exceed the limitations set in
their POH.
In any case, this doesn't really have much to do with the overhaul/upgrade
to your engine, just what you can do with it once its done.
Ron Davis
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Beech-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 05/30/03 |
--> Beech-List message posted by: Stuart J Brown <stu_brown@juno.com>
Just think about it, a Bonanza with an engine 40 lbs lighter than the
original. Just what we need, CG far enough aft we have to add 40 lbs of
lead to the nose. :-)
Stu Brown G-35 driver.
On Fri, 30 May 2003 23:55:06 -0700 Beech-List Digest Server
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> 1. 06:43 AM - Re: Beech-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 05/29/03
> (JWirs@aol.com)
>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 1
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 06:43:54 AM PST US
> From: JWirs@aol.com
> Subject: Beech-List: Re: Beech-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 05/29/03
>
> --> Beech-List message posted by: JWirs@aol.com
>
> Hi Pete,
>
> RE:
> I need input on my options. Everything is running fine.. fresh
> annual..
> E-185-11
> but, I'd like to plan for the future (read start saving my money)
> and am
> confused:
> I would like to go to a 225 hp when the time comes.
>
> I'm in the process (slow, red-tape, etc) of trying to "resurrect" an
> STC to
> install an IO360 (210hp) into the pre '57 Bonanza's. I'll keep your
> email and
>
> let you know as (if) progress occurs. The IO360 is a great
> replacement -
> current production (parts availability), 40lbs lighter (no flight
> performance
> change), wet sump (no more oil cooler tank), and room to work on it
> (have you
> tried to change the starter on an E series?).
>
> Jeff Wirs
> Coral Springs, FL
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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