---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 12/02/02: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:30 AM - Time for another Ossie to weigh in! (owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com) 2. 08:16 AM - Re: [ Tom Fisher ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Tom Fisher) 3. 08:53 AM - Re: [ Tom Fisher ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com) 4. 08:53 AM - Archive (owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com) 5. 09:45 AM - Re: Old Images (Matt Dralle) 6. 12:54 PM - INVITATION (Bill Williams) 7. 02:47 PM - Re: INVITATION (Barry Collman) 8. 04:05 PM - Re: INVITATION (Bill Williams) 9. 04:24 PM - 560E vs 500B (Barshalom@aol.com) 10. 05:08 PM - Re: 560E vs 500B (Bruce Campbell) 11. 05:30 PM - Re: 560E vs 500B (Chris Schuermann) 12. 06:00 PM - Re: 560E vs 500B (Randy Dettmer, AIA) 13. 06:19 PM - Cheap Fuel in San Antonio (That's TEXAS!) (David & Miriam Talley) 14. 06:23 PM - Re: 560E vs 500B (Bow) 15. 06:44 PM - Re: 560E vs 500B (Randy Dettmer, AIA) 16. 06:54 PM - Re: 560E vs 500B (Bow) 17. 06:59 PM - Re: 560E vs 500B (CloudCraft@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:30:28 AM PST US From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [203.220.234.151]) Subject: Commander-List: Time for another Ossie to weigh in! From: Russell Legg --> Commander-List message posted by: Russell Legg G'day all! Time to add my fashionably late little bit! Greetings from Oz... Commanders first came into my life during the mid seventies! At the time I was ploughing through my PPL and based at Essendon Airport...Melbourne's Downtown Airport in Victoria. I had the great fortune to be mentored in the Commander department by the late Stan Tayler and I enjoyed many right hand seat sorties in 560E VH-EXV. Stan and I perfected a great excuse for downing ales in the Cockpit Bar at Essendon...we just wanted to miss peak hour traffic!! The taste has never faded and while I have flown others in the family; 500A, 680, 680E, 680FL and 680FLP the 560E is my favourite. The 680FLP (sports car) time was most memorable...flying in VH-DCE out of Essendon and into a semi-sealed strip at Toolern Vale (just 9 air minutes) west. This was great fun but did little to preserve the longevity of VH-DCE...I can feel our good Wing Commander wincing!! Some of you will remember the engineering survey I did on this aircraft a few years back. At Hillsboro last year, I was entirely humbled when I had the opportunity to talk at length to Dick Wartinger about the 560E...(the 5 minutes turned into 2 hours)...he told me that in his opinion it was the most sought after Commander...he renewed my resolve to purchase one of these some day. My homework on the type continues. Back to my story... I completed my twin rating in a beat up old Aztec and then moved around different types, building up my hours and experience. In the late seventies I had the unique opportunity to build up some considerable time in the Bristol Freighter (this really was noisy stuff...you don't know you are flying unless the seat-rails let go in one of these on take-off!...and yes Keith the wings were in the right place on these old dinosaurs). Last I heard, there is still one flying out of Terrace in British Columbia. In those days I worked for a freight company called Air Express. When this company folded in 1979 I changed ends of the airport and cut my teeth on DC3's, mostly with SETAIR. Foolishly I bought shares in the company (read two P&W 1830's) and my aviation career soon after crashed and burned, when in turn SETAIR perished in 1984. Over time I have maintained my love for Commanders and it was great to come across Chris on the internet a few years back, prior to the list first starting...and the rest is history. Chris' great article on "Why not to buy that Commander" has been a great reality check for me from time to time...please take time to read these words. The highlight of 2001 for me was the time I spent at Hillsboro getting to know many of you guys...N222JS is a great machine to get to know...talk to a guy called Jimbob!! Commanders are alive and well in Oz. My colleague Richard Thompson is doing a fantastic renovation on his 680E VH-CAX, and a small number of operators have specialised on the Shrike with just a few 500A, 560E and 690A/B operators. And we do have a sole 685...just for Milt! Across the Tasman Sea we have a straight 500 and a 680F flying in NZ. My sights are set on procuring a 560E in the not too distant future. These days I am based in remote Oz, in Katherine, Northern Territory (or the TOPEND as we call it) and maintain single engine time only...I have become dangerous around Twins...but there is always tomorrow! Cheers and ciders Russell ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:16:17 AM PST US From: "Tom Fisher" Subject: Re: Commander-List: [ Tom Fisher ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! --> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher" Actually, I sent the image to test out the site because I was looking for the images that were on the old site. T... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Hancock" Subject: Re: Commander-List: [ Tom Fisher ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! > --> Commander-List message posted by: Barry Hancock > > Good on ya, Tom. Hopefully more people will take advantage of this easy > to use feature! > > Barry > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:53:56 AM PST US From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com PST From: "Nico van Niekerk" Subject: Re: Commander-List: [ Tom Fisher ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! --> Commander-List message posted by: "Nico van Niekerk" Matt, The archive that I sent you, has been stripped of attachments because in the majority of cases they were just email messages that appeared in the body of other emial messages anyway. Now that Tom mentioned wanting to see images from the old list, it dawned on me that I have those too and I can upload them for you also. Let me know what it is you want me to do. Thanks Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Fisher" Subject: Re: Commander-List: [ Tom Fisher ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher" > > Actually, I sent the image to test out the site because I was looking for > the images that were on the old site. > T... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Barry Hancock" > To: > Subject: Re: Commander-List: [ Tom Fisher ] : New Email List Photo Share > Available! > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: Barry Hancock > > > > Good on ya, Tom. Hopefully more people will take advantage of this easy > > to use feature! > > > > Barry > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:53:56 AM PST US From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com PST From: "Nico van Niekerk" Subject: Commander-List: Archive --> Commander-List message posted by: "Nico van Niekerk" Matt, I uploaded a 10mb text file 'mail.txt' into pub/incoming on your ftp site. It contains a single file with 6,465 messages separated by a line of if you need to separate them. Let me know if this is workable. Thanks Nico ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:45:24 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Commander-List: Re: Old Images --> Commander-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Hi Nico, Go ahead and zip all of the images up and up load them to the same place. I'll make one big Photoshare out of them... Matt At 08:53 AM 12/2/2002 Monday, you wrote: >--> Commander-List message posted by: "Nico van Niekerk" > > >Matt, >The archive that I sent you, has been stripped of attachments because in the >majority of cases they were just email messages that appeared in the body of >other emial messages anyway. >Now that Tom mentioned wanting to see images from the old list, it dawned on >me that I have those too and I can upload them for you also. >Let me know what it is you want me to do. >Thanks >Nico > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Tom Fisher" >To: >Subject: Re: Commander-List: [ Tom Fisher ] : New Email List Photo Share >Available! > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher" > > > > > Actually, I sent the image to test out the site because I was looking for > > the images that were on the old site. > > T... > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Barry Hancock" > > To: > > Subject: Re: Commander-List: [ Tom Fisher ] : New Email List Photo Share > > Available! > > > > > > > --> Commander-List message posted by: Barry Hancock > > > > > > > Good on ya, Tom. Hopefully more people will take advantage of this easy > > > to use feature! > > > > > > Barry > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:54:39 PM PST US From: "Bill Williams" Subject: Commander-List: INVITATION --> Commander-List message posted by: "Bill Williams" Hi All: We're new to the TCFG and this email list. We have enjoyed reading all your emails and we'd like to thank Jim for inviting us to join, and we thought introductions were in order. We're known as AirMatrix: A matrix being a surrounding within which something new develops. Accordingly, one of our ongoing projects is the development of the Router Reference Implementation (RRI) for the Aeronautical Telecommunications Network Systems, Inc. (ATNSI), including the much touted Voice Data Link (VDL), which should be reaching your cockpits sometime around 2008. On a more Commander-interesting note: We are the proud owners of a 1955 vintage 560A. The aircraft is just finishing a lengthy major overhaul and repair. It is expected to join service as a special missions and flight test platform sometime in the early spring of next year. Everything on the plane has been zero-timed and we have made many interesting repairs and modifications, like a modular instrument panel and avionics upgrade, to mention but a few. We believe that every Commander owner will find many interesting things to inspect and talk about. Therefore, we would like to extend an invitation to all TCFG members to visit us before the bird goes into service. We will gladly provide free hangar and tug service, and a bite to eat. We are on the west side - in the new hangar complex - of Arlington Municipal Airport (AWO). Call ahead and we'll send a follow-me to great you. Best to you all, Bill Williams AirMatrix Arlington Municipal Airport, Hangar D 17705 49th Place N.E. Arlington, WA 98223-7898 Tel: 360-435-7343 Fax: 360-435-8193 Email: billw@air-matrix.com Web Site: www.air-matrix.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:47:09 PM PST US From: "Barry Collman" Subject: Re: Commander-List: INVITATION --> Commander-List message posted by: "Barry Collman" Hi Bill et al, Myself and Chris Haag dropped into the facility of AirMatrix last June, and were fortunate to catch Bill around. Their 560A is indeed a fine-looking Commander, and as Bill has invited you all to drop in, I hope some of you do! See you again next year Bill! Very Best Regards, Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Williams" Subject: Commander-List: INVITATION | --> Commander-List message posted by: "Bill Williams" | | Hi All: | | We're new to the TCFG and this email list. We have enjoyed reading all | your emails and we'd like to thank Jim for inviting us to join, and we | thought introductions were in order. | | We're known as AirMatrix: A matrix being a surrounding within which | something new develops. Accordingly, one of our ongoing projects is the | development of the Router Reference Implementation (RRI) for the | Aeronautical Telecommunications Network Systems, Inc. (ATNSI), including | the much touted Voice Data Link (VDL), which should be reaching your | cockpits sometime around 2008. | | On a more Commander-interesting note: We are the proud owners of a 1955 | vintage 560A. The aircraft is just finishing a lengthy major overhaul | and repair. It is expected to join service as a special missions and | flight test platform sometime in the early spring of next year. | Everything on the plane has been zero-timed and we have made many | interesting repairs and modifications, like a modular instrument panel | and avionics upgrade, to mention but a few. We believe that every | Commander owner will find many interesting things to inspect and talk | about. | | Therefore, we would like to extend an invitation to all TCFG members to | visit us before the bird goes into service. We will gladly provide free | hangar and tug service, and a bite to eat. We are on the west side - in | the new hangar complex - of Arlington Municipal Airport (AWO). Call | ahead and we'll send a follow-me to great you. | | Best to you all, | Bill Williams | AirMatrix | Arlington Municipal Airport, Hangar D | 17705 49th Place N.E. | Arlington, WA 98223-7898 | Tel: 360-435-7343 | Fax: 360-435-8193 | Email: billw@air-matrix.com | Web Site: www.air-matrix.com | | | | | | | ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:05:14 PM PST US From: "Bill Williams" Subject: RE: Commander-List: INVITATION --> Commander-List message posted by: "Bill Williams" Barry et al: Thank you for the kind words. We remember your visit with fondness and inspiration. We look forward to seeing you again this coming summer and we'll take you for a ride in the 560A. Best Regards, Bill Williams AirMatrix 17705 49th Place N.E., Hangar D Arlington, WA 98223-7898 tel: 360-435-7343 fax: 360-435-8193 email: billw@air-matrix.com ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:24:22 PM PST US From: Barshalom@aol.com Subject: Commander-List: 560E vs 500B --> Commander-List message posted by: Barshalom@aol.com OK Guys, All along I have heard that the 500B is THE AeroCommander...no geared engine problems...etc. Now, everyone is talking 560E. So, how about a pro's and con's comparison for us neophytes? Bill in TN AC 500B N69PT By the way, JB, did you get my application for TCFG membership? ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:08:39 PM PST US From: "Bruce Campbell" Subject: Re: Commander-List: 560E vs 500B --> Commander-List message posted by: "Bruce Campbell" What's wrong with geared engines? Mine are smooth and reliable, relatively inexpensive to operate,and dont have a crank AD. Bruce Campbell AC 52 N4186B ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Commander-List: 560E vs 500B > --> Commander-List message posted by: Barshalom@aol.com > > OK Guys, > > All along I have heard that the 500B is THE AeroCommander...no geared engine > problems...etc. > > Now, everyone is talking 560E. > > So, how about a pro's and con's comparison for us neophytes? > > Bill in TN > AC 500B N69PT > > By the way, JB, did you get my application for TCFG membership? > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:30:13 PM PST US From: Chris Schuermann Subject: Re: Commander-List: 560E vs 500B --> Commander-List message posted by: Chris Schuermann Barshalom@aol.com wrote: > All along I have heard that the 500B is THE AeroCommander...no geared engine > problems...etc. > > Now, everyone is talking 560E. > > So, how about a pro's and con's comparison for us neophytes? Since I've answered this question about a zillion times over the last 10 years, I'll take a shot at a short answer: Geared engine Pros: Significantly more static thrust giving much better takeoff, and climb performance. Typically smoother than non-geared alternatives. Turns a larger, more efficient prop at lower RPM - less prop noise also. Durable and reliable with remarkably few ADs Sounds incredible with straight stacks and augmentor tubes :-) Cons: Unsupported by manufacturer - parts becoming limited Lower TBO (1200-1400 hrs vs 1600-2000hrs for non geared) Limited number of shops capable of overhauling Some unusual accessories which are hard to come by (bendix pressure carbs, Simmonds FI, low tension mags, odd accessory drives, etc - depending on model) Splined shaft prop mount with only one or two prop options depending on engine model. Require more care in operation than non-geared models As of this time, you CAN acquire all required parts, get good overhauls, and have a solid future use from the geared Lycoming engines. A geared engine is not your best bet for a high use airplane such as a cargo hauler as the economics simply favor a direct drive engine. For a personal chariot, they do provide unbeatable performance and additional safety in a single-engine environment. ...and they just sound GREAT! Chris Schuermann ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:00:55 PM PST US From: "Randy Dettmer, AIA" Subject: Re: Commander-List: 560E vs 500B --> Commander-List message posted by: "Randy Dettmer, AIA" Wow Chris...you just described my 680F perfectly. I especially like the part about the "personal chariot"...one that is pulled by 760 horses. Randy Dettmer 680F/N6253X ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Schuermann" Subject: Re: Commander-List: 560E vs 500B > --> Commander-List message posted by: Chris Schuermann > > > Barshalom@aol.com wrote: > > All along I have heard that the 500B is THE AeroCommander...no geared engine > > problems...etc. > > > > Now, everyone is talking 560E. > > > > So, how about a pro's and con's comparison for us neophytes? > > > Since I've answered this question about a zillion times over the last 10 > years, I'll take a shot at a short answer: > > Geared engine Pros: > Significantly more static thrust giving much better takeoff, and climb > performance. > Typically smoother than non-geared alternatives. > Turns a larger, more efficient prop at lower RPM - less prop noise also. > Durable and reliable with remarkably few ADs > Sounds incredible with straight stacks and augmentor tubes :-) > > Cons: > Unsupported by manufacturer - parts becoming limited > Lower TBO (1200-1400 hrs vs 1600-2000hrs for non geared) > Limited number of shops capable of overhauling > Some unusual accessories which are hard to come by (bendix pressure > carbs, Simmonds FI, low tension mags, odd accessory drives, etc - > depending on model) > Splined shaft prop mount with only one or two prop options depending on > engine model. > Require more care in operation than non-geared models > > > As of this time, you CAN acquire all required parts, get good overhauls, > and have a solid future use from the geared Lycoming engines. A geared > engine is not your best bet for a high use airplane such as a cargo > hauler as the economics simply favor a direct drive engine. For a > personal chariot, they do provide unbeatable performance and additional > safety in a single-engine environment. ...and they just sound GREAT! > > Chris Schuermann > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:19:05 PM PST US From: David & Miriam Talley Subject: Commander-List: Cheap Fuel in San Antonio (That's TEXAS!) --> Commander-List message posted by: David & Miriam Talley Commander Drivers (and anything else that flies)... I'm posting this latest message from the T89 airport "coordinator" for your pleasure: Note from Castroville, Texas (T89) I wanted to take this opportunity to thank those of you who have been purchasing fuel here at the Airport. With your strong support, we sold over 11,300 gallons of fuel for the month of November. With this continued high volume, we will be able to keep our prices very low. Just as a note, we still have our prices set at $1.64 for 100LL and $1.65 for JetA. Please help us keep our prices low by telling your fellow pilots about us. THANKS!!! Tim Fousse Airport Coordinator Castroville Municipal Airport T89- Castroville is right outside of San Antonio (South, Southwest). Oh!... Remember to "Keep the oily side down!" David Talley San Antonio, Texas ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:23:38 PM PST US From: "Bow" Subject: Re: Commander-List: 560E vs 500B --> Commander-List message posted by: "Bow" one that is pulled by 760 horses. As one who ownes a Quarter horse and an Apendix horse, that (760 horses) is a BUNCH of horse #$%. We're talking tonage here. bilbo ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:44:17 PM PST US From: "Randy Dettmer, AIA" Subject: Re: Commander-List: 560E vs 500B --> Commander-List message posted by: "Randy Dettmer, AIA" I wonder if you're paying more $$$ in hay than I am paying in 100LL for the year..?? My fuel bill sometimes runs over $1,000 per month...ouch. RD ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bow" Subject: Re: Commander-List: 560E vs 500B > --> Commander-List message posted by: "Bow" > > one that is pulled by 760 horses. > > > As one who ownes a Quarter horse and an Apendix horse, that (760 horses) is > a BUNCH of horse #$%. We're talking tonage here. > > bilbo > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:54:10 PM PST US From: "Bow" Subject: Re: Commander-List: 560E vs 500B --> Commander-List message posted by: "Bow" > I wonder if you're paying more $$$ in hay than I am paying in 100LL for the > year..?? My fuel bill sometimes runs over $1,000 per month...ouch. Well Randy the horses eat, and crap whether you "run" them or not($600.00/month for 2). Mine(500A) has been broken in TLH for a month and it wont be moved until the 14th of Dec. It isn't burning andy fuel but the insurance is still going on. That's about $450.00 for 6 weeks. bilbo ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:59:28 PM PST US From: CloudCraft@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: 560E vs 500B --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com In a message dated 12/02/02 18:54:37 Pacific Standard Time, w.bow@att.net writes: > Well Randy the horses eat, and crap whether you "run" them or > not($600.00/month for 2). Bilbo, You own 2 horses AND an airplane? Next you'll tell us you own a boat and have a wife. Poor lad. (Literally?) Wing Commander Gordon