---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 05/16/03: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:44 AM - Re: a couple changes... (Bill Bow) 2. 05:05 AM - Re: a couple changes... (Jim Crunkleton) 3. 08:31 AM - Re: a couple changes... (CloudCraft@aol.com) 4. 08:35 AM - Re: a couple changes... (CloudCraft@aol.com) 5. 08:51 AM - Re: a couple changes... (DAVID LAWSON) 6. 09:18 AM - Calling center (Jim Addington) 7. 09:59 AM - Re: Calling center (MOEMILLS@aol.com) 8. 12:14 PM - Re: Calling center (andrew.bridget@shaw.ca) 9. 01:45 PM - Re: Calling center (Stephen Crow) 10. 03:52 PM - Newfoundland (Tom Fisher) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:44:55 AM PST US From: "Bill Bow" Subject: Re: Commander-List: a couple changes... --> Commander-List message posted by: "Bill Bow" I'll be listening for you Gordon. I think you will stand out quite nicely. The only time including HF I have ever used the antiquated term was as a lone word transmission when I got no answer. But then I'm not one of the "with you at ....." people either. bilbo ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Commander-List: a couple changes... > --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com > > In a message dated 05/15/03 04:05:15 Pacific Daylight Time, > fighterf@ozemail.com.au writes: > > > > "over" is a bit of a hangover > > I have to smile at this. I find "over" is making a come back, at least here > in the U.S., where many calls to ATC go unanswered because the controller is > "on the land line." (To whom? Wife? Bookie? Divorce attorney?) > > I noticed a celebrity guest copilot end his transmission with "over" after 3 > calls to check in at Flight Level and received an immediate response when > other crews did not. > > So I've began an experiment ... and it works! If ATC doesn't respond to an > initial call and I hear other crews check in with no response, I'll call > again and end with "over," and get them to respond straight away. > > Something about that antiquated word strikes a primal chord in all of us who > have memories (or at least have seen movies) with someone desperately calling > Saipan on HF amid static and squeals ... > > Wing Commander Gordon > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:05:21 AM PST US From: "Jim Crunkleton" Subject: Re: Commander-List: a couple changes... --> Commander-List message posted by: "Jim Crunkleton" Keith, I've been using "Over" for years. If, after the third call, and I still get no response, I give a pause, and then say "Over". The reply is almost always the same. "Sorry, I was on the land line, did someone just check in?" However, have you noticed that when they are calling you, if you are the slightest bit tardy in your response, (say a two second delay because you've dropped your mike and are digging for it) they call you two more times with no delay for a response! My standard modus operandi for those situations is to reply, "Sorry, I was on the land line". Crunk ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:31:13 AM PST US From: CloudCraft@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: a couple changes... --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com In a message dated 05/16/03 04:45:57 Pacific Daylight Time, bowing74@earthlink.net writes: > then I'm not one of the "with you at ....." people either. I'm with you on that! Be sure to note the sarcastic, exasperated tone in my voice when I say, "Over," used when ATC doesn't answer. Wing Commander Gordon ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:29 AM PST US From: CloudCraft@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: a couple changes... --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com In a message dated 05/16/03 05:05:49 Pacific Daylight Time, crunk12@bellsouth.net writes: > My standard modus operandi for those situations is to reply, "Sorry, I was > on the land line". > That's terrific! Some day I'll have the courage to say, "Thank you for calling (Falcon _____ / Commander _______ ). Your call is very important to us. No one is in to take your call right now, but if you leave your Center name, frequency and a brief message, we'll get back to you as soon as we can. Again, thank you for calling and wait for the beep." Have to pick the right Center ... Albuquerque would like it, but I think Cleveland will just hang up and not leave a message. Wing Commander Gordon ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:51:55 AM PST US From: "DAVID LAWSON" Subject: Re: Commander-List: a couple changes... --> Commander-List message posted by: "DAVID LAWSON" Not Albuquerque! This is just the thing for NEW YORK!! _________ Unless expressly confirmed in this email to the contrary the information contained in this transmission has not been screened by any anti virus system. The information contained herein and/or attached files should not be used in any way which would cause the introduction of any computer virus or other software routine (e.g., back door, time bomb, Trojan horse, worm) that will disable, lock, erase or otherwise harm software, hardware or data. If this data is to be used in this way it must be returned to the sender for anti virus screening before introduction to any system. ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Commander-List: a couple changes... > --> Commander-List message posted by: CloudCraft@aol.com > > In a message dated 05/16/03 05:05:49 Pacific Daylight Time, > crunk12@bellsouth.net writes: > > > > My standard modus operandi for those situations is to reply, "Sorry, I was > > on the land line". > > > > That's terrific! > > Some day I'll have the courage to say, "Thank you for calling (Falcon _____ > / Commander _______ ). Your call is very important to us. No one is in to > take your call right now, but if you leave your Center name, frequency and a > brief message, we'll get back to you as soon as we can. Again, thank you for > calling and wait for the beep." > > Have to pick the right Center ... Albuquerque would like it, but I think > Cleveland will just hang up and not leave a message. > > Wing Commander Gordon > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:18:09 AM PST US From: "Jim Addington" Subject: Commander-List: Calling center --> Commander-List message posted by: "Jim Addington" Fellows be careful jabbing back at center too hard. Remember they are in control of your arrival and can give you a heading toward never never land for a long arrival. I have seen this happen too many times. Those controllers are just human and you have nice ones and you have not so nice ones. I have used "over" when they would not answer and it does work and it did work for me. "Over" is still used with the boating people. Their procedures are out of the 30's. Jim Addington N444BD ---- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:59:02 AM PST US From: MOEMILLS@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Calling center --> Commander-List message posted by: MOEMILLS@aol.com Gents: As my voice gets older I have noticed that always starting each transmission with "and," and the use of words such as tallyho, Roger, wilco, over, and "with you" work much better than they did 20 years ago, although the fraze "Roger Wilco, over and out" does not seem to get me any points with approach when they give me long winded instructions, and advise me to call Hawthorne tower. I agree with always being courtious to ATC. Several years ago Ontario (CA) approach told me to "hold in right turns and expect call back in 20 minutes" when I called and asked permission to "clip the corner of their ARSA". Moe Mills N680RR ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:14:10 PM PST US From: andrew.bridget@shaw.ca Subject: Re: Commander-List: Calling center --> Commander-List message posted by: andrew.bridget@shaw.ca Hmmm, I dug out my old "Radio Telephony for Pilots" manual and read through it - apparently in 1972 (when it was published - hey wasn't that around the time Noah built his ark?) "over" was still being used, but only in certain circumstances - and that appears to be when the pilot is giving an estimate. They also use "out", "roger", and "wilco". The manual specifically says never to use "over" and "out" together - i.e. "over and out" as this is a contradiction in terms - "over" means you are ending your transmission and you expect a reply, whereas "out" means you are ending your transmission and you do not expect a reply. The manual has an example of a written flight plan (on a form) but, alas, not an example of a verbal flight plan - although it has every conceivable other form of R/T conversation, including the whole Q-Code list. Direct from the manual: "Approach Alpha Bravo Charlie airborne Jan Smuts two one climbing to flight level one zero zero estimating Mike Tango three three over" And for you, Nico - it is also available in Afrikaans! "Nadering Alpha Bravo Charlie opgestyg Jan Smuts twee een, klim na vlugvlak een zero zero, bereken Mike Tango drie drie oor." Regards, Andrew. ----- Original Message ----- From: MOEMILLS@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Calling center > --> Commander-List message posted by: MOEMILLS@aol.com > > Gents: > > As my voice gets older I have noticed that always starting each > transmission > with "and," and the use of words such as tallyho, Roger, wilco, > over, and > "with you" work much better than they did 20 years ago, although > the fraze > "Roger Wilco, over and out" does not seem to get me any points > with approach > when they give me long winded instructions, and advise me to call > Hawthorne > tower. > > I agree with always being courtious to ATC. Several years ago > Ontario (CA) > approach told me to "hold in right turns and expect call back in > 20 minutes" > when I called and asked permission to "clip the corner of their ARSA". > > Moe Mills > N680RR > > > _- > _- > _- > _- > ====================================================================== > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:45:09 PM PST US From: Stephen Crow Subject: Re: Commander-List: Calling center --> Commander-List message posted by: Stephen Crow Get a scanner and do like the Romans.....Steve C. ================================================ ----- Original Message ----- From: andrew.bridget@shaw.ca To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 3:10 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Calling center --> Commander-List message posted by: andrew.bridget@shaw.ca Hmmm, I dug out my old "Radio Telephony for Pilots" manual and read through it - apparently in 1972 (when it was published - hey wasn't that around the time Noah built his ark?) "over" was still being used, but only in certain circumstances - and that appears to be when the pilot is giving an estimate. They also use "out", "roger", and "wilco". The manual specifically says never to use "over" and "out" together - i.e. "over and out" as this is a contradiction in terms - "over" means you are ending your transmission and you expect a reply, whereas "out" means you are ending your transmission and you do not expect a reply. The manual has an example of a written flight plan (on a form) but, alas, not an example of a verbal flight plan - although it has every conceivable other form of R/T conversation, including the whole Q-Code list. Direct from the manual: "Approach Alpha Bravo Charlie airborne Jan Smuts two one climbing to flight level one zero zero estimating Mike Tango three three over" And for you, Nico - it is also available in Afrikaans! "Nadering Alpha Bravo Charlie opgestyg Jan Smuts twee een, klim na vlugvlak een zero zero, bereken Mike Tango drie drie oor." Regards, Andrew. ----- Original Message ----- From: MOEMILLS@aol.com Date: Friday, May 16, 2003 10:58 am Subject: Re: Commander-List: Calling center > --> Commander-List message posted by: MOEMILLS@aol.com > > Gents: > > As my voice gets older I have noticed that always starting each > transmission > with "and," and the use of words such as tallyho, Roger, wilco, > over, and > "with you" work much better than they did 20 years ago, although > the fraze > "Roger Wilco, over and out" does not seem to get me any points > with approach > when they give me long winded instructions, and advise me to call > Hawthorne > tower. > > I agree with always being courtious to ATC. Several years ago > Ontario (CA) > approach told me to "hold in right turns and expect call back in > 20 minutes" > when I called and asked permission to "clip the corner of their ARSA". > > Moe Mills > N680RR > > > _- > _- > _- > _- > ====================================================================== > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:52:23 PM PST US From: "Tom Fisher" Subject: Commander-List: Newfoundland --> Commander-List message posted by: "Tom Fisher" Tragedy in Eastern Canada Gander NFLD (CP) Canada's Worst Air Disaster occurred earlier today when a Cessna 152, a small two-seater plane, crashed into a cemetery early this morning in central Newfoundland. Newfie search and rescue workers have recovered 826 bodies so far, and expect that number to climb as digging continues into the evening. Tom F.